In fairness, Philly is sort of a small town without any real influence...

[detlef]

...so, I wouldn't get too carried away with assuming how wide spread this issue is with the church as a whole. I'm pretty sure it is just a few bad seeds here and there.

 

 

 

 

Lynn testified that he tried to get accused priests out of parishes and into treatment, but said his power was limited because Cardinal Anthony Bevilacqua had the final say.

 

 

 

Lynn testified that he drew up a list of accused priests in 1994, to let Bevilacqua and his top aides know the scope of the abuse complaints contained in secret, locked archives at the archdiocese.

 

"I think the whole purpose in sending that list up was action should be taken on a number of people," Lynn told Common Pleas Judge M. Teresa Sarmina, who had a list of questions of her own for the defendant.

 

Instead, the cardinal had the list destroyed soon after he read it, according to a memo turned over by the archdiocese just weeks before trial. Lynn said he never knew that until the memo surfaced.

 

Lynn also offered an explanation for why the archdiocese didn't act on old complaints, some of which dated to the 1940s, before the 2002 reforms. He said that either Monsignor James E. Molloy or now-retired Allentown Bishop Edward Cullen, two top Bevilacqua aides, told him "that for many of the priests, the actions happened so long ago, if the cardinal had taken action, Rome would overturn it."

 

[Joessfl]

I think its time for them to take a different tact and work on moving the focus away from the church. Maybe a formal inquiry of the practices of the Girl Scouts of America would be just the thing.

 

Seriously, this whole thing makes me sick. He didn't have "the power"???. The organization large enough to think that they can serve their own flavor of justice, that is the scariest organization of all. Is this organization so tightly controlled, that he would be defrocked if he went to others if the first attempt wasn't heard? If anything, defrocking would be a great response, then he could speak as loud as he wanted. He hid behind the convenience of his organizations rules instead of society's.

 

The priests that did this are a representative of a god, building trust within a community, but when push comes to shove, they either protect themselves, or rally around those that "need" protecting. If there is no justice served in this world, even though I dont believe in it, I hope they rot in their hell. The boys were children (lets stop calling them victims to minimize the impact....they were boys).

 

Anyone messing with children better be found mentally incapacitated and live the rest of their lives medicated to the point they are mentally dead, or left in prison until their own internal justice is served. Either way, I dont care.

 

In my mind, it seems the bad they do is outweighing the good. It is even inherently political internally. It seems the first question they ask isnt "How can I help mankind". They got confused at some point and worried about their growth, power and influence to make the world their place...not a better place.

 

Is there an organization that I can join that works towards reducing the catholic church? Maybe if I join, and there is truly a god, and he asks me when I die why I joined, I would feel comfortable saying "I tried to help right a wrong" and others next to me would agree.

 

Sorry for the rant, as I said, this makes me sick.

[detlef]

Typically, when a business behaves like this, people take their money elsewhere. The problem is, the vast majority of the people who are prepared to do so weren't potential custoemrs to begin with. Tha catholic church already wasn't getting my money, but they clearly have too much money and power or truly meaningful change could be demanded of them.

 

That's where the good Catholics come in. Those are the people who need to start taking their money elsewhere and stop including themselves among the ranks of this group. It is because of their money and the fact that their numbers are added to the massively long roster that the church has the power it does and can, so often, say, "You can't touch us! We're the Catholic Church!" It's why the Pope's personal advisor can compare people demanding the Pope answers questions about how much he may have known about a priest who was implicated in the molestation scandal to the holocaust, then people like me get pissed for a little while, and then it goes away again.

 

But, instead of taking their money elsewhere, these good Catholics just get pissed at people who apparently want to "crap all over them and their beliefs" and accuse us of painting every Catholic with the same broad brush. But, for starters, that's not what we're saying. At least I'm not saying, if you're a Catholic, you must be cool with molesting boys. (OK, so maybe I've said something to that end once or twice, but it was out of frustration with your lack of action on the matter). But what I am saying is that, as long as you include yourself and your money among the ranks of that church, you're not doing enough to distance yourself from a group who, from the top down, seems or seemed far more concerned about protecting its image than protecting boys. And, if any of the money you give your specific branch trickles up to the top, then you are part of the problem. Because your money is the money that they'll miss, not mine.

 

Throughout history, people of faith have gone to the church, told them that they were full of it and left to form their own. Telling them, "you can keep the name, we'll find another. Just so nobody thinks I'm one of you corrupt bastages." I don't see why good Catholics can't do the same.

Edited May 31, 2012 by detlef

[stevegrab]

detlef,

 

You don't think any Catholics have left the church over all that and many other issues?

 

While what the Catholic church has done in these cases is despicable it doesn't mean all Catholics who haven't left the church are bad. All priests and bishops in the Catholic church are not bad. We read a lot of these stories and they are hardly isolated but they still constitute a very small number within the larger body.

 

The fact that you've ever said anything like "if you're a Catholic, you must be cool with molesting boys" even out of frustration is telling. You must believe that on some level people who don't quit organizations that they have strong ties to even when they do something terrible, are themselves ok with those terrible acts.

[detlef]

detlef,

 

You don't think any Catholics have left the church over all that and many other issues?

 

While what the Catholic church has done in these cases is despicable it doesn't mean all Catholics who haven't left the church are bad. All priests and bishops in the Catholic church are not bad. We read a lot of these stories and they are hardly isolated but they still constitute a very small number within the larger body.

 

The fact that you've ever said anything like "if you're a Catholic, you must be cool with molesting boys" even out of frustration is telling. You must believe that on some level people who don't quit organizations that they have strong ties to even when they do something terrible, are themselves ok with those terrible acts.

 

Sorry, but I do think that, given the lines that trace to very high levels in the church, that any truly moral person should not be able to find it in their heart to continue association with that group. This isn't sticking every Baptist with culpability with the fact that some a-hole in Kasas pickets funerals. This is the fact that it is quite clear that the group is corrupt to the core. How can the lead group that governs the church in a city as large as Philly (and let's not pretend that this is just one guy who happened to get to the top in one, albeit major, city) be complicit without this not being the case? How can any Catholic essentially circle the wagons when the guys at the top refuse to even be questioned about what he may know and then have the Pope's main advisor compare us demanding answers in the face of a very widespread and horrific scandal to Jews being rounded up and killed by Nazis?

 

I'm sorry, and I'm sure it must be horrible to be betrayed by something that means so much to you. But it should be god, not the church, who you answer to. And if not only the molestations, but also the manner in which the church has protected itself first and the boys second, isn't enough to drive you towards another group of worship, then, you may not be fine with boys getting molested, but you're apparently not outraged enough.

 

It would be an entirely different thing is this came up and the church just dropped what it was doing, did a massive investigation, and jailed anyone found guilty of either doing it or covering it up. But they act like the church is under attack. They act like they should be able to deal with it on their terms and remind us of all the history and good they've done.

 

Take this story, they're just throwing some clerk to the wolves and hoping it stops there. They're not dealing the fact that he gave a list of guys they thought were molestic boys and his boss burned that list.

 

I'm saying it's not good enough to just say, "I'm a Catholic who does not support this" if you still support the church in any material way. If outraged Catholics want to split and form, The New Catholic Church" and make it clear that none of their tithe goes to that scandelous body, that's one thing. But to simply say, "I'm one of the good ones, leave me out of this", is not enough.

Edited May 31, 2012 by detlef

[stevegrab]

BTW I am not Catholic.

 

These people are Catholic and want to remain Catholic. They want to fix their church, not abonden it. Their parishioners and their priest do not molest boys or defend that action. If every Catholic were good and moral as you think they should be, they'd all leave the Church and it would cease to exist. (I think that is what some non religious people really want.)

 

As far as the Pope's advisors and his statement about Nazis, well to some inside the church (any church or religion) there does seem to be a growing movement in this country against all religion. You have people using terms like "stop believing in fairy tales" or even "you must be a child molestor" and other very hateful things. I can see why some might feel like they're being persecuted.

 

The Orthodox Church in America (of which my church is a member) recently had some major financial troubles, mishandling, corruption, cover-ups etc. There was a lot of turmoil, some people stopped supporting the church financially or left their parish altogether. But most hung in there, fought through their organizational structure to remove and punish those responsible and make changes to prevent future trouble. While not as terrible as child molesting, the

 

If a member of an organization wants to leave over something that is their right. It is also their right to remain in it and try to improve it. That doesn't mean they support the wrong things which were done, and characterisizing them that way is absolutely unfair and wrong.

[detlef]

BTW I am not Catholic.

 

These people are Catholic and want to remain Catholic. They want to fix their church, not abonden it. Their parishioners and their priest do not molest boys or defend that action. If every Catholic were good and moral as you think they should be, they'd all leave the Church and it would cease to exist. (I think that is what some non religious people really want.)

 

As far as the Pope's advisors and his statement about Nazis, well to some inside the church (any church or religion) there does seem to be a growing movement in this country against all religion. You have people using terms like "stop believing in fairy tales" or even "you must be a child molestor" and other very hateful things. I can see why some might feel like they're being persecuted.

 

The Orthodox Church in America (of which my church is a member) recently had some major financial troubles, mishandling, corruption, cover-ups etc. There was a lot of turmoil, some people stopped supporting the church financially or left their parish altogether. But most hung in there, fought through their organizational structure to remove and punish those responsible and make changes to prevent future trouble. While not as terrible as child molesting, the

 

If a member of an organization wants to leave over something that is their right. It is also their right to remain in it and try to improve it. That doesn't mean they support the wrong things which were done, and characterisizing them that way is absolutely unfair and wrong.

 

1) I don't want the Catholic Church to cease to exist, I just feel that it has gotten so powerful that it is above the law and would prefer that all those who are truly outraged not give the church the money and numbers required to allow this behavior. And, if I truly wanted an end to all religion, why would I be any happier if all the good Catholics left and started a new one where egregious crimes would not be covered up?

 

2) The notion of religion being under attack is intellectually insulting and confuses "attack" with "self defense". Apparently "the church" wants to be able to inflict itself into secular society but cries that they're being attacked when people push back. Take the NC Amendment thing. As much as Whomper wants to distance the church from that and he's likely correct that there were most certainly some non-religious types who also supported that amendment. Essentially all the ads cited the bible, the sponsors of the amendment made their religious motives clear, and the vast majority of the money either came from large faith-based groups or the Catholic church itself. So, that is very much taking the first swing and it seems rather pathetic to cry, "he hit me!" if you get punched back. In short, I would make this deal with all religions: Stop citing rules that were written 3000 years ago to govern a bunch of Palestine tribesmen as relevant to how everyone needs to live today. Stop confusing the fact that there are certain things that the bible and secular society happen to agree on as basis to assume it needs to be open season on using the bible to define law for everyone. Stop that on the large enough scale that you cease any meaningful effect on secular society, and I'll stop saying mean things about your religion. I wont even bug you about the fringe loonies.

 

3) Did your church swiftly and thoroughly act on the charges of financial impropriety? Were those responsible kicked out and/or punished? If so, then they deserve the loyalty of the members. Bad people do bad things... everywhere. If, however, the guys at the top came off like they were insulted that anyone should dare question them, then it's time for revolution. It's time for people to say, "you can keep this effing church, we're going to make our own, because you don't deserve my loyalty."

 

4) That's fine, providing they're not under the impression that by simply remaining Catholics who don't personally molest kids or harbor those who do is actually "fixing" anything. Provided they're demanding action from those who have disgraced their faith. But, like they say, if you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem. They need to tell the Pope that he's not getting their money until true and meaningful action happens. They need to make noise. Not at guys like me because I'm such a dick for reminding them that their church is responding woefully and pathetically to a very real and atrocious situation, but to the guys who are insisting that society let them handle this and then not really handle it.

Edited May 31, 2012 by detlef

[stevegrab]

Uggh, the NC ammendment thing rules your view on so much of this that it isn't even worth discussing. While you seem to be a decent guy, you're taking that and other issues you have with organized religion and applying it to anybody that is part of one.

 

If our people just quit the church and started one elsewhere we could not function as a proper Orthodox Church without being part of another larger body. That is true for many organized religions because that is how things work.

 

Sorry but discussing these things with people who have no real idea of how the churches operate and already have a very anti-religion stance is not productive at all. You're never going to understand my view, and I'll probably never understand yours.

[detlef]

Uggh, the NC ammendment thing rules your view on so much of this that it isn't even worth discussing. While you seem to be a decent guy, you're taking that and other issues you have with organized religion and applying it to anybody that is part of one.

 

If our people just quit the church and started one elsewhere we could not function as a proper Orthodox Church without being part of another larger body. That is true for many organized religions because that is how things work.

 

Sorry but discussing these things with people who have no real idea of how the churches operate and already have a very anti-religion stance is not productive at all. You're never going to understand my view, and I'll probably never understand yours.

 

Yes, I do have a bad habit of harping on churches sponsoring discrimination. I also have a bad habit of remaining pissed off that the Catholic church thumbs its nose at the world in the midst of a horrible scandal only to have to endure people who continue to give them money whine, "leave me alone, I'm one of the good ones."

 

Here's the thing, the same crap can be said about whatever country you live in or whatever POTUS you vote for. They may all suck, but you have to pick one. Unless you're prepared to go live on an island and live off the land, you need to pick one of the festering piles of crap that each country or candidate within each country is.

 

But that's not the case with the church. Even if you need religion, you don't need the church. If you're a catholic and decide that you just can't take the crap any more. You can still get together with your friends and read the bible every Sunday and you can still go by the Catholic version. You don't have to scratch a check to the Diocese.

 

Additionally, I'm rather certain that there are plenty of churches who eschew power and size and simply just get together and worship god. I don't see why someone needs to feel compelled to continue supporting a corrupt group when there's alternatives.

 

You keep on saying, "but if all the good people left, that church would cease to be." OK, cuff 'em. Let the good people do their thing. I thought this was about reverence to God? Why does it have to be about holding your nose and putting up with crap in order to associate yourself with a corrupt group?

[stevegrab]

Detlef,

 

You seem to have a lot of opinions on how religious people should act despite not being one yourself. Sitting at home and reading the bible is one thing. Going to a church and taking the sacrements (communion as done in many Christian churches) is another. So one cannot continue their Catholic (Orthodox, or other) faith without attending church regularly. No they don't have to financially support the church, in fact I've never encountered a church that requires you tp pay money to be part of the community. (They might encourage you to donate, or have a membership fee that gives you other rights or reduces the costs of things like a funeral/wedding.)

 

Those churches who eschew power and organization, they're the church of "bring your own faith, do whatever you want". The Unitarians come to mind. Which to many is not a church at all. Or else they're the giant mega churchs like Ernest Angley's Crystal Cathedral.

 

Seriously I don't know why I bother to keep responding. Its clear to me that you have a very strong dislike (or hate even) for organized religion and people who belong to them. Its been clear from the beginning of the 'tax the church" thread.

[Big John]

in fact I've never encountered a church that requires you tp pay money to be part of the community.

 

My mother was kicked out of membership because she was unable to pay the amount the (crooked) pastor demanded in the Catholic parish.

[detlef]

Detlef,

 

You seem to have a lot of opinions on how religious people should act despite not being one yourself. Sitting at home and reading the bible is one thing. Going to a church and taking the sacrements (communion as done in many Christian churches) is another. So one cannot continue their Catholic (Orthodox, or other) faith without attending church regularly. No they don't have to financially support the church, in fact I've never encountered a church that requires you tp pay money to be part of the community. (They might encourage you to donate, or have a membership fee that gives you other rights or reduces the costs of things like a funeral/wedding.)

 

Those churches who eschew power and organization, they're the church of "bring your own faith, do whatever you want". The Unitarians come to mind. Which to many is not a church at all. Or else they're the giant mega churchs like Ernest Angley's Crystal Cathedral.

 

Seriously I don't know why I bother to keep responding. Its clear to me that you have a very strong dislike (or hate even) for organized religion and people who belong to them. Its been clear from the beginning of the 'tax the church" thread.

 

Just so I have this straight: Say you're a Catholic and, for whatever reason, are rather annoyed at the fact that they've been harboring and hiding child molesters for decades. The top brass isn't budging in this regard and is just tossing out mid-level scapegoats from time to time to keep the wolves at bay. Are you implying that it is more important to continue going to that house of worship that is affiliated with all that hideous corruption, adding, at very least, to the over all head count (which, btw, is one of the things that separates something like the Catholic Church from, some random cult that the FBI can go raid and shut down). Quite possibly to their coffers. Say you don't go to Big John's mom's church, but how many regular church attendees are doing so without kicking in? I mean, the money has to come from somewhere, no?

 

I mean, I thought it was all about faith? It's not? It's really about ceremony? At what cost? Knowing that money you give will be used to support a corrupt body? That will be spent to fight political battles against law-abiding citizenry? To pay to cover up scandels?

 

And, listen to yourself for a minute. Now you're playing the, "well those aren't real churches" card. Really? Because they don't meet in fancy buildings and wear robes? So, the Catholic Church may sponsor discrimination and harbor child molesters, but at least they have crackers and wine. Those others are just a bunch of posers who get together in someone's living room and talk about faith.

Edited May 31, 2012 by detlef

[stevegrab]

My mother was kicked out of membership because she was unable to pay the amount the (crooked) pastor demanded in the Catholic parish.

 

 

She was kicked out of membership, what does that mean? Was she prohibited from attending church and receiving communion? Is that a normal thing in the Catholic church (I've never heard this before).

 

In our church (and others I've talked to) the priest does not decide what the membership dues are, the higher governing body sets an amount that the parish pays to them per member. Then it is up to the parish to decide if they collect that amount from each member, or more or less and deal with those financial issues. The church I go to I am not a dues paying member. But I can attend services, take communion, participate in social events, etc. Now if I want to be part of the group (parish council) that handles church matters, or vote on those elected to council or other issues, then I have to be a dues paying member. Basically the church as a community and place of worship is open to all. While church administration and voting on matters is reserved for people who have paid dues. (I had also heard of churches who do reduced dues for older members or in hardship cases.) If I want to get married at the church there is a fee, and that may be higher for non members. Same goes if I want to rent the hall for some event.

[Big John]

She was kicked out of membership, what does that mean? Was she prohibited from attending church and receiving communion? Is that a normal thing in the Catholic church (I've never heard this before).

 

 

She was basically excluded from the church (along with me). She could have went to another parish, but there was none other within walking distance (she did not have a car).

 

It was more the monsignor heading the parish that did that, as he had several views differing from Jesus, such as the monsignor was not welcoming the poor (mom) and outcast (me), plus requiring a more formal presentation from the parishoners such as fance clothes to mass, where was not required at any other Catholic parish.

 

It was not until another priest took over that she was welcomed back to the church.

[whomper]

Good luck in your crusade against the church Detlef. I think you are just a few paragraphs away from bringing them down

[stevegrab]

She was basically excluded from the church (along with me). She could have went to another parish, but there was none other within walking distance (she did not have a car).

 

It was more the monsignor heading the parish that did that, as he had several views differing from Jesus, such as the monsignor was not welcoming the poor (mom) and outcast (me), plus requiring a more formal presentation from the parishoners such as fance clothes to mass, where was not required at any other Catholic parish.

 

It was not until another priest took over that she was welcomed back to the church.

 

 

That priest was a self-serving A-hole (IMHO). Sorry to hear you were treated that way, but glad to hear your family was welcomed back.

[Square]

Good luck in your crusade against the church Detlef. I think you are just a few paragraphs away from bringing them down

 

[detlef]

Good luck in your crusade against the church Detlef. I think you are just a few paragraphs away from bringing them down

 

Enjoy your continued support of one of the most vile and corrupt groups history has ever known. I'm sure reminding yourself that you and those in your parish are the some of good ones must ease the regret in knowning that some of the money you pay to the church goes to support the lawless and despicable behavior of the overlords. At very leas they must appreciate knowing that they can still count on you to pad their global roster, thereby giving them the power to thumb their nose at the world.

 

WE ARE... PENN STATE THE CATHOLIC CHURCH!!!!

[whomper]

Enjoy your continued support of one of the most vile and corrupt groups history has ever known. I'm sure reminding yourself that you and those in your parish are the some of good ones must ease the regret in knowning that some of the money you pay to the church goes to support the lawless and despicable behavior of the overlords. At very leas they must appreciate knowing that they can still count on you to pad their global roster, thereby giving them the power to thumb their nose at the world.

 

WE ARE... PENN STATE THE CATHOLIC CHURCH!!!!

 

 

None of this erases the stink on NC. No matter how hard you try.

[detlef]

None of this erases the stink on NC. No matter how hard you try.

 

In case you didn't notice, this thread was about the steaming piles of crap at the higher reaches of the church you support protecting their own asses rather than boys whom were being molested by their priests.

 

It amazes me that people chuckle at the notion of. "there goes detlef, making a big deal about the fact that the church refuses to deal with rampant pedophilia within its ranks again"

 

Dude, if this was anyone else but your precious effing church, the perverts and those who protected them would have already been rounded up and all of them would be somebody's b!tch in prison by now. But because "the good Catholics" are too attached to their crackers and wine to stand up and refuse to continue to support the vile heirarchy, they'll continue to get away with it.

 

I've thought the Catholic Church was a filthy pile of crap long before May 8th.

 

I think you owe it to yourself, your faith, and the world to ask yourself a simple question. Is continuing to practice your faith in the manner you are used to, following the same procedures and customs, more important than rejecting evil? Which do you think god would want you to do?

Edited June 1, 2012 by detlef

[detlef]

Good luck in your crusade against the church Detlef. I think you are just a few paragraphs away from bringing them down

 

Of course, you're right. If the knowledge that the church sponsors pedophilia isn't enough.

What good does it do for me to rant on about it here?

[whomper]

Why is it that if the Church has its claws so deep in the universe there are states that voted to recognize same sex marriages ? Surely this massive superpower could reach and influence any person in any state at any time yet your state made the non progressive decision, while others didnt. Its odd to me . You hate religion being shoved down your throat yet there is pretty much no bigger offender of cramming religious opinion up everyones ass than you. If you arent whining about it on facebook you are whining about it here. The church did have influence IN the NC decision which makes you wet your pants so you can give them full blame and scapegoat. Im not a stupid man. I know the church is flawed and I know despicable things have resulted from it. You throw out "people look the other way because you're one of the good ones" to try and defuse the argument when someone tries to use it.

 

I view my church by the parishes I have been a part of . Im 41. I have been in 3 parishes . I was an alter boy, went to Catholic grammar school and college. I have met and interacted with many many priests, as a boy a teen and a man. These men have done me great good in my life and I have seen them do great good for others. They have broken bread in my home, drank wine with my dad, attended our family parties. Never ever inappropriate. You never ever mention the good the Church has done. The charity, the fullfillment people get from attending, the spiritual support. Like Steve said above. Its not the only reason I attend the church but your suggestion that instead of going to Church my friends and I just crack a bible in my garage just shows that aside from your War and Peacelike responses to everything on here, you dont have a full grasp of the need for the Church. Baptism, communion, penance, the sacraments. These are attained through the church. My church surely expects donations but I am never forced to give a penny. I can worship and attend mass 7 days a week without dropping a penny. I pay , gladly, for religious eduction for my kids. That is the only mandatory payment I make to my church.

 

In a massive organization such as the Church that is made up of human beings you will have failure and dissapointment. The way I continue to belong to a parish is I recognize that there are much more good people in the church than bad. The Church does a great deal of good. My parishes have always been wonderful experiences that I wont give up because a very small percentage of the priests committed these terrible acts. I wish they rounded them up and burned them at the stake. You act as if people that continue to support their parishes condone what the priests did. I realize when I donate to the Church some of it gets kicked upstairs to those that have done terrible things. Its unfortunate . Its unforgiveable as far as those who committed the acts and those who authorized the shell game but I view my relationship with the Church as it stands with my Parish and they have never dissapointed me. You can keep talking of the church as Crackers and wine and fairy tales. You can crowbar religion in to every thread at the huddle. I really dont care. You're a hypocrite and your state still reeks of the stone age

[detlef]

Well, Whomper, it's a nice start that you've at least recognized your churches involvement in the codified discrmination that went down here in NC. When I brought it up in the tax the church thread, you first went with the "I'm sure some people who are not religious voted for it" then, the "just because some of the main financiers are faith-based groups doesn't mean they're actuall the church" to, well, MIA acutally, once I pointed out that, actually the Diocese of both NC and Ralieigh were among the biggest donors to the cause.

 

So, it's nice to see you come around in at least that regard. Way to finally man up.

 

As for the rest: I'm sure you get plenty out of your church, just as I get out of the social network that I've created for myself. The charity organiziations I support, the social clubs I join. But you know what's cool about those for me. I mean, besides the good that gets done, the community that we create, and the good times we have? It's the fact that I'm not also contributing to a war chest that pays to harbor child molesters and war criminals. So, that's kind of nice. I have to hold my nose when I pay my taxes and think about what I'm paying for. So I'd certainly not like to voluntarily do any more of that.

 

Throughout history, brave people of faith have stood up against the evil of the greater chruch and left to start their own. Of course, they're vilified by the power structure, but they realize it's more important to reject evil than to embrace the familiar. I guess I'm just sort of appalled that the atrocities committed by the Catholic Church in the last 20-70 years was not enough for that to happen again. It will never cease to amaze me that good Catholics are less interested in defending their church from the evil within than they are from those who point that evil out. And I do feel that, provided good people continue to support the evil power structure of the greater Catholic Church, they are sinning against their fellow man, because they help give the greater church power to continue it's agenda. But, hey, we all sin.

 

Lastly, I have no doubt you're a great guy and a good person. I've certainly learned at least as much as that during my time sharing both the huddle and facebook with you. For what that's worth.

[whomper]

I also am not playing the pity card for the Church. The Church certainly does do harm in some aspects when it strong arms its opinions.

 

 

From the Tax the Church Thread

 

I have acknowledged that the Church is far from perfect. I never once said the Church had no influence in the NC decision. My point was that im sure there are plenty of people that voted for the amendment that werent influenced by the Church and I am sure there are people that are part of the Church that voted against it. If I had the opportunity to vote on that amendement , I dont care if the pope himself showed up at my doorstep to influence me I would have voted against it and so would a majority of people I know the belong to the Church. Again, as I said above , I cant understand why there are states that voted to recognize same sex marriages when , according to you, the Church string pulling is universal. I just dont get how NC made that decision , yet other states , that the Church can certainly reach , made more progressive decisions on the topic.

 

"just because some of the main financiers are faith-based groups doesn't mean they're actuall the church"

 

I dont really recall arguing this point at all

 

MIA acutally, once I pointed out that, actually the Diocese of both NC and Ralieigh were among the biggest donors to the cause.

 

 

I believed you the first time you said there was a campaign by the Church for it. I never doubted the Church was for it . I just really think the Church has less lemmings than you say it does. I know there are people that blindly follow and do what they are told but I also know , from personal experience , that many church goers will make their own decisions on matters even if it doesnt jive with the message from the Church.

 

There are many people from the Church that think rationally and formulate their own opinions on topics and how they relate to God. To me , it is possible to disagree with things that are in the bible and things that are taught by the Church. There are thousands of messages in the Bible and in the Churches teachings anyone that says they whole heartedly agree with every one of them IMO isnt being truthful , but yes there are those that on the outside will never side against the House.

 

Lastly, I have no doubt you're a great guy and a good person. I've certainly learned at least as much as that during my time sharing both the huddle and facebook with you. For what that's worth.

 

Its the old cliche, Things will get heated when you speak of religion and politics. You are entitled to your opinions and you certainly have points that you are correct about. Our interaction on here in the exercise forum , F& B, and here in the tailgate has always been a good one. We are natural born enemies in the football forum as you are a fan of the clearly inferior dynasty that is the 49ers. We are cool bro. This is just a topic we will never fully agree on.

[detlef]

 

 

I dont really recall arguing this point at all

 

You know why? Because apparently you didn't. My bad. I do feel that you did try to unfairly distance "the church" from the vote here in NC, but it was actually Azz who then went on to make the distinction between "the church" and PACs who happen to be faith-based. It was he who conveniently ignored the rather large sums of money that the Catholic Church donated to the campaign.

 

Because it was you who initially started down that line of argument, I mistakenly thought it was you who then brought that bit up about faith-based PACs. As much as I hate it when people accuse me of saying things I didn't, I certainly owe you better.