Colts to announce new stadium deal

[Bill Swerski]

I'll tell you what Billy, go ahead and build a statue of Unitas right outside of the RCA dome.  When the fans can't relate to it and the rest of the league looks at you like a 5 year old girlie playing dress up, maybe you can put it on ebay.

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Everyone knows that Unitas played for the COLTS, so I don't think that fans would have difficulty identifying with it. BTW, I think that there's a plaque with Unitas' name on it on the edge of the upper deck inside the RCA Dome (I know there's one for Dickerson). At least, I think I think I remember seeing it. Maybe CH can help me with that?

 

I'm sorry that you have such a difficult time dealing with my suggestion that the COLTS should consider honoring one of its greatest players. I'm willing to "share" the legacy of Unitas (and other great Baltimore Colts players) with the city of Baltimore. Frankly, I don't see what the big deal is.

 

As for Ozzie Newsome, the man was a God on the field and is an even bigger God as a GM.  Oh, again, you named a player who actually has done NFL work in his new city.

 

 

Thanks for proving my point.

 

Given that Art Modell moved the Browns to Baltimore (taking EVERYTHING except for the name) AND also took Cleveland's second-greatest player ever with him, you have absolutely NO right to criticize the Colts for moving or wanting to honor Unitas, if they chose to do so.

Edited December 21, 2004 by Bill Swerski

[Jrick35]

Everyone knows that Unitas played for the COLTS, so I don't think that fans would have difficulty identifying with it.  BTW, I think that there's a plaque with Unitas' name on it on the edge of the upper deck inside the RCA Dome (I know there's one for Dickerson).  At least, I think I think I remember seeing it.  Maybe CH can help me with that?

 

I'm sorry that you have such a difficult time dealing with my suggestion that the COLTS should consider honoring one of its greatest players.  I'm willing to "share" the legacy of Unitas (and other great Baltimore Colts players) with the city of Baltimore.  Frankly, I don't see what the big deal is.

Thanks for proving my point. 

 

Given that Art Modell moved the Browns to Baltimore (taking EVERYTHING except for the name) AND also took Cleveland's second-greatest player ever with him, you have no right to criticize the Colts for moving or wanting to honor Unitas, if they chose to do so.

 

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Plus the History of the Ravens starts with the advent of the Ravens Franchise.

 

The History of The current Browns teams starts with the advent of the original Cleveland Browns Franchise of years ago, the History associated with the Cleveland Browns never went to Baltimore with Modell and the Ravens.

 

And the History of the Colts starts with the advent of the original Baltimore Colts Franchise.

 

There is no correlation between the Ravens and the old Baltimore Colts outside of the fact that both played in Baltimore.

 

So if the Indianapolis Colts wanted to honor Unitas or any other Colts player in the HISTORY of the Baltimore/Indianapolis Colts in any form, and a statue would be awesome, they would have every right to do so.

[Bill Swerski]

So if the Indianapolis Colts wanted to honor Unitas or any other Colts player in the HISTORY of the Baltimore/Indianapolis Colts in any form, and a statue would be awesome, they would have every right to do so.

 

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The Colts Pro Shop also sells Unitas Throwback spamshirts.

[Big Red]

Whatever guys. You'll never see a Ravens fan brag about how great Ozzie was for our team. You will see us brag about how great of a GM he is.

 

The Unitas spamshirts can be purchased anywhere. I am willing to bet there are more at a Ravens game than a Colts game today.

 

I guess the logic involved in this is beyond you guys. Unitas never played in Indy. If Indy fans want to play dressup and wear a Unitas jersey, that's their business. No one thinks of Indianapolis when they think of Unitas. If you think they do then there is no point in going on with this.

 

I pity fans that have nothing to 'remember' but memories of players that never played in their city. It's a sad as Bill Bidwell getting upset that the Cowboys no longer play against his Cardinals once a year as that was his only chance at a sellout.

 

I hate the Indy Colts, the Steelers and the Redskins, but it's a football 'rivalry' kind of hate. Usually I'm able to have fun with their fans. You guys I just pity.

 

Perhaps one day when you are old and grey and speaking of the great days of Manning, Harrison and James you will remember this and think how silly it was to want to speak gloriously of other teams' achievements.

[CaptainHook]

BTW, I think that there's a plaque with Unitas' name on it on the edge of the upper deck inside the RCA Dome (I know there's one for Dickerson).

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If you are talking about the "Ring of Honor", Dickerson's name is there, but Unitas is not. It seems to me, once again, that Jim Irsay has been very understanding of the city of Baltimore and careful not to rub salt in old wounds. Although the Colts got to bring all the colors, logos, and records to Indy, you would have to know about old Baltimore players, 'cause the Colts organization never mentions them. You really have to look at the Colt record book to get any idea of who is there. Baltimore numbers are still retired: 19 for John Unitas, 22 for Buddy Young, 24 for Lenny Moore, 70 for Art Donovan, 77 for Jim Parker, 82 for Raymond Berry, and 89 for Gino Marchetti. Most of Unitas records still stand, although, in the end, Peyton will have most of them. Most of Berry's records have been passed by Marvin Harrison. The only time you hear about one of the old Baltimore Colts records is when a new Colt has broken it. Jim Irsay has always dealt with the Indianapolis history, and I cannot imagine him ever doing anything to honor Unitas here in Indianapolis. I feel it would be inappropriate.

Edited December 21, 2004 by CaptainHook

[CaptainHook]

As for supporting the team, Irsay ran the team into the ground and got upset when fans stopped showing up.  Indy gave him a guarenteed sellout.  Only when that ran out (10 years) was a minimal effort made to upgrade the team.  Anyone who thinks Baltimore never supported football (NFL, USFL, CFL) is just not that bright.  Unlike Indy, Baltimore was not going to let Irsay ruin our team and pay him to do it.  Modell moved his team, but always put money into the team.  That didn't happen in Indy until Jim Irsay starting running the show.

 

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I do have to disagree with you a bit here Big Red. The NFL is cyclical. After having several HOF players, and several championships, you had to expect some down years. Did it just "happen" to occur when Robert Irsay took control, or was he the cause of it? That is up for debate. Sometimes you still have to support the team even if you don't agree with what they have done, if you want them to stay. Baltimore was unwilling to do that. They were unwilling to build a new stadium, but were willing to do so for the Browns, who had never won a Super Bowl either. It is a two way street.

 

I completely understand Baltimore fans' bitterness, however. Robert Irsay was a terrible owner. But sometimes, you have to look past that and hope that what happens when he is gone, is better. Would Baltimore rather still have the Colts now that Jim is the owner, and have suffered through the Robert Irsay years? I can't say for sure. But with the way I hear a lot of the old Baltimore Colts fans talk, I think they might.

Edited December 21, 2004 by CaptainHook

[Big Red]

CH, it's easy to agree with what you've said. Given that the last Baltimore Colt team with a winning record was 1977 (I was 6), I only remember the horrible teams at the end, including the winless 0-8-1 team.

 

As I said before, Jim Irsay does appear to be his own man and is honestly working on winning a title instead of just getting rich. Also, good for him in not playing up the legacy of the old Colts and working on building his own. The last few years have been very good to the Colts and I'm sure many of the current players will one day be in the HOF.

 

As far as the Colts fans not supporting Robert Irsays' product, realize this. The Colts first season was 1953. In 1957 they had their first winning season. Not until 1982, Irsay's first year as owner, did they again have a losing season (15 years). Between 1972 and the move, the Baltimore Colts had just 3 winning seasons. It was not the Colts the fans had a problem supporting, it was Robert Irsay, although the only way to show that was to not attend the games. The resulting lower value of the team, old stadium and hatred toward Irsay forced him into looking into a move. The MD legislature attempting to take the team by eminent domain force the middle of the night move.

 

And you are correct, once the team was gone I'm sure a lot of 'what have we done' was heard. It's no accident that shortly after that move, the money for Camden Yards was suddenly pushed through. Of course had we known how far it was going to go, we would not have gone there. Of course we would have prefered they not go, but then again, we could be Los Angeles and still be waiting for a team.

 

In a perfect world the Colts would still be a Baltimore team. In an almost perfect work, the Colts name, colors and history would have stayed behind. The third best option would be for what we have, a great new franchise (sorry Cleveland) with a new name, a new history but still ties to our past history. Baltimore fans want nothing of the Cleveland history, I just assumed that Indy fans would be the same.

 

As far as being willing to build a stadium for the Browns, we learned our lesson. The fact that Indy is willing to build a new stadium only 20 years after opening the Hoosier Dome shows it's a lesson Indy does not want to learn itself. Uuugggghhh, to think of how Baltimore 'happily' bent over for the USFL, CFL and NFL Preseason game (Saints/Dolphins) to show how much we'd support a team. Thank God Modell thought we'd support him better than Cleveland would.

[Bill Swerski]

If you are talking about the "Ring of Honor", Dickerson's name is there, but Unitas is not.

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I was wrong, then. But the fact that his number (and those of the rest of the great Baltimore Colts) is retired speaks volumes.

 

I pity fans that have nothing to 'remember' but memories of players that never played in their city.  It's a sad as Bill Bidwell getting upset that the Cowboys no longer play against his Cardinals once a year as that was his only chance at a sellout.

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I pity people like you for being angry because the Colts moved, despite acquiring a successful expansion franchise in the mid-'90s and winning a Super Bowl shortly after. Get over it and be happy that you have a successful team again.

 

No one thinks of Indianapolis when they think of Unitas.

 

They also think of the "Colts" when they think of Unitas. And the Colts are now located in Indianapolis. Again, I don't understand why the legacy of Unitas can't be shared by both the city of Baltimore and the Colts organization. Your "Unitas is ours and only ours!" attitude is childish, especially since the Colts organization acquired and paid Unitas to play there.

 

As bad an owner as Bob Irsay may have been, bad ownership is a fact of life in professional sports. Look at Chicago, whose sports teams are run by some of the worst owners out there (Bill Wurtz, Jerry Reinsdorf, Virginia McCaskey). Yet, the Blackhawks, White Sox, Bulls, and Bears aren't going anywhere because those teams have strong support from the fans and the local and state governments. I'm sorry that was not the case in Baltimore. I agree with CH that the local and state politicians in Maryland are as much to blame as Bob Irsay.

 

But whining and complaining that the history and legacy of the pre-1984 Colts belongs to the city of Baltimore ONLY is nothing short of childish and petty. And being the fan of another "stolen" franchise makes you look like a complete hypocrite.

Edited December 21, 2004 by Bill Swerski

[Big Red]

Billy, you just don't get it.

 

You want to play pretend because your team has retired numbers from an other city, go ahead. I tend to think that most people will view a fan bragging about a player who played his entire career in an other city as they view a 5 year old getting a participant award and a pat on the head for finishing last.

 

From age 12 to 26 I had to go from the Colts to the Stars to the Stallions with a whole lot of nothing in the middle because someone had to move our team away for greed. Watching the Redskins have success during that period just made it worse. Having a great team now is, uh, great, but having no football just plain sucks.

 

So because Unitas was a Colt, and the Colts now play in Indy you can think of Unitas as your own? Come on. No one in Baltimore actually goes on and on about Reggie Jackson, and he actually played here. I doubt San Diego fans brag about Unitas' tenure. I doubt anyone in KC goes on and on about anything Montana did with San Fran.

 

Go on and on all you want about any player you want, but if all they did was wear the same color and logo that your city happens to have now but never played in/for that city, you're going to look as smart as the guy they let kick a 30 yard field goal at halftime who never quite gets it right.

[Bill Swerski]

Billy, you just don't get it.

 

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No, YOU don't get it. The Oakland Raiders still claim the Super Bowl XVIII title that they won as the Los Angeles Raiders. Al Davis set the precedent that organizations can move and retain the history that was established in their former city. The Colts chose to follow the same model. The former Cleveland Browns did not. However, Modell's choice does NOT make the Irsays wrong for wanting retaining the history that THEY (not the city of Baltimore) financed prior to 1984. FWIW, I've never heard anyone in the Colts front office complaining about the Unitas statue in Baltimore. Both the city of Baltimore and the Colts organization have the right to honor Johnny U.

 

Stop whining. :bawling:

[CaptainHook]

I do have a question. Where is the Super Bowl trophy from Super Bowl V? I've been to the Colts complex, and I've never seen it. I really don't think that Jim Irsay has it, but I honestly don't know. Does anyone know?

[Bill Swerski]

Irsay very well may not have it. It's not really discussed on the web site.

 

Interestingly, Al Davis and Georgia Frontiere proudly display the titles that their organizations' money and hard work earned in LA.

[Only In America]

I wonder what they will call this new stadium. Maybe they could do a special tribute for Captain and Swerski for being the biggest nutsuckers to hang form Manning sack.

[CaptainHook]

I wonder what they will call this new stadium. Maybe they could do a special tribute for  Captain and Swerski for being the biggest nutsuckers to hang form Manning sack.

 

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Have you paid up on your bet with spain yet?

[Bill Swerski]

I wonder what they will call this new stadium. Maybe they could do a special tribute for  Captain and Swerski for being the biggest nutsuckers to hang form Manning sack.

 

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I'll bet you they don't. Oh, wait, you don't honors your bets, welcher.

[Only In America]

Have you paid up on your bet with spain yet?

 

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I'll bet you they don't.  Oh, wait, you don't honors your bets, welcher.   

 

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I don't owe anyone anything. I bet you 2 clowns share a 2 headed dildo.

[Jrick35]

Ok Red, I agree with you & Hook that putting the Unitas Statue up in Indy might be bad form.

 

But I really must say that almost everything else you are saying is wrong. You even go so far as to contradict yourself. First you say,

In an almost perfect work, the Colts name, colors and history would have stayed behind.

By making this statement you are acknowledging the fact that the history of the Colts went to Indy with the team.

 

You then go on to say,

The third best option would be for what we have, a great new franchise (sorry Cleveland) with a new name, a new history but still ties to our past history

How can you have a new history and still have ties to your past history?

 

And finally you say,

Baltimore fans want nothing of the Cleveland history, I just assumed that Indy fans would be the same.

When in reality the City of Cleveland actually sued for the rights to retain the Team Colors, Name & History of their beloved Browns. It wasn't so much that the people of Baltimore didn't want it as it was that the people of Cleveland weren't willing to give it up.

 

The reality is that in nearly every instance when a Sports Franchise relocates to a new city they take everything about that team with them. The exception is when the Ravens were formed. That was in essence a move from Cleveland to Baltimore but the Ravens are considered to have started their existence as a team at that time while the Cleveland Browns have never, on paper, ever ceased to exist. The Brownies simply took an extended hiatus.

[Bill Swerski]

I don't owe anyone anything. I bet you 2 clowns share a 2 headed dildo.

 

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That's not what spain tells us.

 

You have no credibility here anymore. Fu@k off.

[Big John]

I don't owe anyone anything. I bet you 2 clowns share a 2 headed dildo.

 

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You had a 7-game bet on the Chiefs with spain at $100 a pop. Since they already lost at least 4 of the betted games, the deal would be you pay spain $100. And you did NOT pay up.

 

Will pull up links if you deny this further.

[Gunther]

You had a 7-game bet on the Chiefs with spain at $100 a pop.  Since they already lost at least 4 of the betted games, the deal would be you pay spain $100.  And you did NOT pay up.

 

Will pull up links if you deny this further.

 

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I was subscribed to the thread that was based on this bet between OIA and Spain. Saw a flurry of activity in my inbox that people were posting and got there too late, thread gunned. Kind of sorry I missed the last few posts.

[CaptainHook]

I don't owe anyone anything.

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You had a 7-game bet on the Chiefs with spain at $100 a pop.  Since they already lost at least 4 of the betted games, the deal would be you pay spain $100.  And you did NOT pay up.

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[Bill Swerski]

Will pull up links if you deny this further.

 

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Can welchers have their accounts disabled?

[max]

To bring in an outside perspective on this when I picture Johnny Unitas I see a Colt's uniform. I know he played in Baltimore but the Image is of the Colts. Either way people in Baltimore should be proud to have seen him play and fans in Indianapolis should be proud he was (and always will be) a Colt. In this case I think both sides win.

 

You definately made out better than my Steelers who actually cut unitas from the roster.

Edited December 22, 2004 by max

[Big Red]

Actually, a few pro teams have changed their names/colors when moving. Both the Cleveland Browns (NFL) and St. Louis Browns (MLB) changed their names when moving to Baltimore. The Winnepeg Jets (NHL), Quebec Nordiques (NHL), Hartford Whalers (NHL), Dallas Texans (AFL) and countless other teams have done it.

 

I do understand why a TEAM will keep it's name/history. What I am saying is that I as a fan would not relate to anything before my city got a team. Maybe it's just a Baltimore thing, but we NEVER talk about the Cleveland Browns past glory or the St. Louis Browns World Series win. It wasn't ours even though we now have the team.

 

Picture this.....

 

Daddy, who is that statue?

 

Well Sparky, that is Johnny Unitas, the greatest QB to ever play the game. He was a Colt.

 

Wow Daddy, tell me about when you saw him play.

 

Well, I was in my lazy boy watching NFL Films on ESPN Classic. Wow, what a sight.

 

Oh, you never actually saw him play.

 

No Sparky, it was before my time.

 

Grandpa, did you see him play.

 

Yes, it was the greatest game ever played, I believe it was on TV.

 

Oh, so you never saw him play in person either. Then tell me about the great games he had here at the RCA Dome, show me where he used to roam the sidelines.

 

Oh, well, uh, we'd have to go to Baltimore for that Sparky. He never did any of that here.

 

Baltimore, I thought you said he was a Colt dad? You may as well tell me of Joe Montana or Troy Aikman, at least they played here once or twice. You do know that we have Peyton Manning, right Dad? I'm sure they'll be a statue of him one day, just be patient. Man, I'm not going to bull*** my kid when I'm your age.

[Big Red]

By the way, it is totally possible to have a new history while honoring and remembing the old.

 

Everything in this town is Ravens. During the playoffs the city is bathed in purple lights. However, Colts stuff is not an evil taboo or anything. The center of the ring of honor at the stadium is a blue backround the Unitas' name and the numbers of all the retired Baltimore Colts in white. The Ravens marching band (formally the Colts band, they never stopped performing and only changed their name in 1996) carries four flags out for each game, the Stars and Stripes, the MD state flag, the Ravens flag and a blue flag with a white 19 on it.

 

Basically the team still loves the Colts from 84 and before as well as the Ravens. In short, Baltimore NFL football is what is loved, not really one team over an other. It's not like we had two teams, lost one and suddenly liked the other one more, it's more like one long history in the NFL with a dark void in the middle.

 

 

Also, changing the name and colors was going to happen. The Cleveland push to make us do it was not needed. The NFL put that 'condition' on the move, but it was going to happen anyway. First off, we wanted our own identity. Second, only Cleveland could love those uniforms. If we could have called them the Colts and had them wear blue and white, we would have. In fact our CFL team was the Baltimore Colts until the NFL sued and won, hence the Baltimore Stallions in Blue and Off White. The reality of the situation is that the Irsay family owns the Colts name/logo, so the best outcome then to have an NFL team with a different name as the team and the name/logo are gone. By the way, is horse racing a bid deal in Indy? Indy Colts sounds as good a fit as Utah Jazz and Los Angeles Lakers.

 

Baltimore Colt fans are always going to hate the Indy Colts. Cleveland Browns fans are always going to hate the Baltimore Ravens. That's just the way it is.