Brees vs Vick

[Grits and Shins]

rajncajn,

 

In case you didn't notice, I'm not the one who brought up the injury thing, Grits did and he used the injury argument against Vick. I simply responded.

 

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You will note that I brought up the injury thing specifically in regards to the tradeability of Vick. Somebody pointed out that Vick must be better because Atlanta hasn't traded him.

 

Two of Vick's five year NFL career he has sat out half the season + due to injury. Has one season of more than 2900 passing yards, 2 seasons of 2300 to 2400 passing yards and 2 seasons with less than 800 passing yards. He has never thrown for more than 16 TDs and his last 2 seasons he has thrown double digit interceptions.

 

He has a proven injury history. He likes to run, which exposes him to more injury risk. He can't throw the ball.

 

Yeah, somebody is going to trade for that ... especially when you consider the size of his contract.

[Azazello1313]

You will note that I brought up the injury thing specifically in regards to the tradeability of Vick.  Somebody pointed out that Vick must be better because Atlanta hasn't traded him.

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brees wasn't traded either. he was allowed to walk for zero compensation. atlanta could certainly do that with vick if they so chose.

[rajncajn]

rajncajn,

 

In case you didn't notice, I'm not the one who brought up the injury thing, Grits did and he used the injury argument against Vick. I simply responded.

 

Nor did I bring up the Fantasy Factor, jaxfactor & others did. Again, I simply responded.

 

Now if you want to look at it objectively, lets factor in these issues;

 

Which QB had LT as their RB?

 

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Dunn is no LT I'll give you that, but nevertheless he is still a very good & very underrated RB. Have the Falcons not been one of the top rated rushing teams in the NFL?

 

Which QB had Gates as their TE?

 

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Again, while you can't say Crumpler is as good as Gates you can say he is one of the best recieving TEs in the league.

 

Which QB had McKardell as one of his WR's?

 

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Oh please, McCardell is nothing special. He's a very good possession reciever at best. If Vick could get the ball to his WRs at all maybe the Falcons could find out if they have any good WRs.

 

Which QB has enjoyed Coaching stability and one continuous offensive philosphy?

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Although he was drafted & spent his first year under a different coach I'll give you that, but it's still no excuse for a QB who is as highly touted as Vick. In fact He clearly got no better last year in his second season with Mora as his coach.

 

Which QB came within a game of the Superbowl?

 

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This is a ridiculous argument, there have been way worse QBs than both of these that have won the Superbowl.

[Grits and Shins]

brees wasn't traded either.  he was allowed to walk for zero compensation.  atlanta could certainly do that with vick if they so chose. 

 

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Did I miss it when Atlanta drafted another QB with a top 3 pick and paid him millions of dollars? Did I miss the fact that Vick is at the end of his contract like Brees was?

[rajncajn]

Did I miss it when Atlanta drafted another QB with a top 3 pick and paid him millions of dollars?  Did I miss the fact that Vick is at the end of his contract like Brees was?

 

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It's a rare moment when I'm making the same argument as Blitz...I think I will need a shower when this is done.

[rajncajn]

How about a sig-line bet. Barring injury, which QB does better this season?

[Azazello1313]

well, i suppose we could always ask whose team has a better W-L record with that guy as a starter

 

or ask whose team has won more playoff games

[cliaz]

You will note that I brought up the injury thing specifically in regards to the tradeability of Vick.  Somebody pointed out that Vick must be better because Atlanta hasn't traded him.

 

Two of Vick's five year NFL career he has sat out half the season + due to injury.  Has one season of more than 2900 passing yards, 2 seasons of 2300 to 2400 passing yards and 2 seasons with less than 800 passing yards.  He has never thrown for more than 16 TDs and his last 2 seasons he has thrown double digit interceptions.

 

He has a proven injury history.  He likes to run, which exposes him to more injury risk.  He can't throw the ball.

 

Yeah, somebody is going to trade for that ... especially when you consider the size of his contract.

 

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Well put.

 

Screw Vick.

[Azazello1313]

Have the Falcons not been one of the top rated rushing teams in the NFL?

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well, yeah. because of vick. how have they run the ball when vick has been hurt? and it's not just the yards he himself carries the ball for, but the way his presence and the threat of him coming out on a bootleg or misdirection opens up the rest of the field.

[rajncajn]

How about a sig-line bet. Barring injury, which QB does better this season?

 

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Waiting paitiently for someone to sack up & take the bet.

[Azazello1313]

Waiting paitiently for someone to sack up & take the bet.

 

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i don't like doing sig bets. never done one, and don't really care to start.

 

but i'd happily lay 50 bucks that says vick scores more fantasy PPG this year than brees.

[rajncajn]

well, yeah.  because of vick.  how have they run the ball when vick has been hurt?   and it's not just the yards he himself carries the ball for, but the way his presence and the threat of him coming out on a bootleg or misdirection opens up the rest of the field.

 

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So he can run, how does that make him a good QB? Since the opposing defenses are supposed to be so scared that he is going to run shouldn't he have WRs wide open as a result?

[rajncajn]

i don't like doing sig bets.  never done one, and don't really care to start.

 

but i'd happily lay 50 bucks that says vick scores more fantasy PPG this year than brees.

 

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I can't spare the cash for a bet & besides, my argument has nothing to do with fantasy points.

[Azazello1313]

So he can run, how does that make him a good QB? Since the opposing defenses are supposed to be so scared that he is going to run shouldn't he have WRs wide open as a result?

 

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he does. it's just that he only hits them 55% of the time

 

you may think the best quarterback = the best passer. but there is more than one way to lead a team to victory from the QB position, and vick is proof that being wicked fast and quick, with a strong arm and quick release but below-average accuracy and coverage-reading, is one way to skin that cat. vick's falcons can beat other teams like a drum with him putting up harrington-eqsue passing stats. that should tell you that, when it comes to SOME QBs, passing stats don't tell the story.

[Azazello1313]

I can't spare the cash for a bet & besides, my argument has nothing to do with fantasy points.

 

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oh ok. so much for "sacking up", huh?

 

you wanna do W-L record of the falcons with vick starting versus the saints with brees starting?

Edited May 2, 2006 by Azazello1313

[rajncajn]

he does.  it's just that he only hits them 55% of the time

 

you may think the best quarterback = the best passer.  but there is more than one way to lead a team to victory from the QB position, and vick is proof that being wicked fast and quick, with a strong arm and quick release but below-average accuracy and coverage-reading, is one way to skin that cat.  vick's falcons can beat other teams like a drum with him putting up harrington-eqsue passing stats.  that should tell you that, when it comes to SOME QBs, passing stats don't tell the story.

 

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In week 5 last year with Schaub starting he went 18/34 for 298 yds & 3 TDs. He hit Brian Finneran for 103, Crumpler for 99 & even Michael Jenkins who people are calling a bust now for 55. They did lose, but only because the Pats outscored them 31-28. As a Saints fan I hope they do keep Vick, because I surely don't want to see what that offense could do with a good QB.

 

oh ok.  so much for "sacking up", huh?

 

you wanna do W-L record of the falcons with vick starting versus the saints with brees starting?

 

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Hey, I respect you for not liking to do sig bets...I have much more important things to do with my money right now than to make frivolous bets and I would prefer to keep the bet where it belongs, between the two players in question. The Saints still suck on defense, that has nothing to do with whether Brees is a good QB or not.

[rajncajn]

Big Score must be about to drop some serious knowledge. He's been typing forever.

[Hat Trick]

Waiting paitiently for someone to sack up & take the bet.

 

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I'll take the bet, if nothing else cause of the large size of my "sack"? What are the terms and what classifies as "which QB does better"?

[Azazello1313]

In week 5 last year with Schaub starting he went 18/34 for 298 yds & 3 TDs. He hit Brian Finneran for 103, Crumpler for 99 & even Michael Jenkins who people are calling a bust now for 55. They did lose

 

well there you go.

 

Hey, I respect you for not liking to do sig bets...I have much more important things to do with my money right now than to make frivolous bets and I would prefer to keep the bet where it belongs, between the two players in question. The Saints still suck on defense, that has nothing to do with whether Brees is a good QB or not.

 

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so what sort of bet did you have in mind? passer rating? in that case, my counter-offer is rushing yards.

[Hat Trick]

my counter-offer is rushing yards. 

 

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[rajncajn]

I'll take the bet, if nothing else cause of the large size of my "sack"? What are the terms and what classifies as "which QB does better"?

 

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Passer rating is probably the best judge, but if you want to do yardage or completion percentage I'd go for that as well.

well there you go.

so what sort of bet did you have in mind?  passer rating?    in that case, my counter-offer is rushing yards. 

 

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[Big Score 1]

Dunn is no LT I'll give you that, but nevertheless he is still a very good & very underrated RB. Have the Falcons not been one of the top rated rushing teams in the NFL?

 

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You're absolutely right rajncajn, Dunn is no LT.

I guess Vick's rushing has nothing to do with the success of Atlanta's run game either?

 

Michael Vick Rushing                +-----------------------                |     Rushing     |+----------+-----+------------------| Year  TM |   G |  Att  Yards  TD |+----------+-----+------------------| 2001 atl |   8 |    29   300   1 || 2002 atl |  15 |   113   777   8 || 2003 atl |   5 |    40   255   1 || 2004 atl |  15 |   120   902   3 || 2005 atl |  15 |   102   597   6 |+----------+-----+-----------------

 

Again, while you can't say Crumpler is as good as Gates you can say he is one of the best recieving TEs in the league.

 

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Spin it how you like, but as you say "you can't say Crumpler is as good as Gates"

Oh please, McCardell is nothing special. He's a very good possession reciever at best.

 

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All I can say here is.....

 

I'm sure Vick & the Falcons would LOVE to have a nothing special, very good possesion receiver at best, like McKardell.

Keenan McKardell                +--------------------------+                |        Receiving        |+----------+-----+--------------------------+| Year  TM |   G |   Rec  Yards   Y/R   TD |+----------+-----+--------------------------+| 1992 cle |   2 |     1      8   8.0    0 || 1993 cle |   4 |    13    234  18.0    4 || 1994 cle |  14 |    10    182  18.2    0 || 1995 cle |  16 |    56    709  12.7    4 || 1996 jax |  16 |    85   1129  13.3    3 || 1997 jax |  16 |    85   1164  13.7    5 || 1998 jax |  15 |    64    892  13.9    6 || 1999 jax |  16 |    78    891  11.4    5 || 2000 jax |  16 |    94   1207  12.8    5 || 2001 jax |  16 |    93   1110  11.9    6 || 2002 tam |  14 |    61    670  11.0    6 || 2003 tam |  16 |    84   1174  14.0    8 || 2004 sdg |   7 |    31    393  12.7    1 || 2005 sdg |  16 |    70    917  13.1    9 |+----------+-----+--------------------------+|  TOTAL   | 184 |   825  10680  12.9   62 |+----------+-----+--------------------------+

 

 

 

Although he was drafted & spent his first year under a different coach

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First TWO years under a different Coach & different offensive philosphy.

it's still no excuse for a QB who is as highly touted as Vick. In fact He clearly got no better last year in his second season with Mora as his coach.

 

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Of course Vick was throwing to two new starting WR's last year, one in only his 2nd year after limited playing time as a rookie and the other being a pure rookie!

This is a ridiculous argument, there have been way worse QBs than both of these that have won the Superbowl.

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Going with this argument, we know these lesser QB's that you speak of, who made it to the Superbowl, did so by the benefit of having a strong supporting cast...kinda like Brees.

 

Thanks for supporting my point rajncajn.

[Big Score 1]

Big Score must be about to drop some serious knowledge. He's been typing forever.

 

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The Wife pulled me away to help her plant some petunias.

 

In other words, she stood there telling me where she wanted them and I did all the work.

 

But isn't that how it always goes?

[Big Score 1]

How about a sig-line bet. Barring injury, which QB does better this season?

 

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Considering that Brees is already injured, you've already got the out.

[Big Score 1]

You will note that I brought up the injury thing specifically in regards to the tradeability of Vick.  Somebody pointed out that Vick must be better because Atlanta hasn't traded him.

 

Two of Vick's five year NFL career he has sat out half the season + due to injury.  Has one season of more than 2900 passing yards, 2 seasons of 2300 to 2400 passing yards and 2 seasons with less than 800 passing yards.  He has never thrown for more than 16 TDs and his last 2 seasons he has thrown double digit interceptions.

 

He has a proven injury history.  He likes to run, which exposes him to more injury risk.  He can't throw the ball.

 

Yeah, somebody is going to trade for that ... especially when you consider the size of his contract.

 

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While all of the above is true, which QB is it, that's trying to come back from a potentially career threatening torn rotator cuff?