Batch 1-0, Roethlisberger 0-2

[LooGie]

Palmer has 3 times the 300 yard games

Ben through less than 20 yards 6 times compared to Palmer's 1.

Ben had less than 200 yds twice as often as Palmer

Palmer had 30+ attempts 12 times and Ben only twice.

 

Those are huge differences. Palmer is counted on to win games for his team, where as Ben is counted on not to lose the game for his. Ben is a game manager, not a game winner. Don't get me wrong, Ben doesn't suck, but he is only a little bit better than average.

 

 

very nice stats, and good points. I agree with everything you said, EXCEPT that Ben is not a game winner. I agree he's needed to NOT lose a game, and now he needs to win games, and he's showing how young he really is. But I feel he IS a game winner. He provides the leadership necc. for the team to feel comfortable out there. Not losing a game, is winning a game, too, btw. He by far, is a game changer. A quick scramble and long bomb and he could turn everything around.

 

He's rusty, and I think he'll bounce back, but make no mistake, the Steelers are a better team with him on it. Even if they have to lean on him heavily, I think he'll produce.

[Bier Meister]

Remarkable difference ?

 

Which part ? The part that he is 4-5 when his defense allow 20 or more and Ben is 3-3 ?

 

I also found it humorous that you cited this sesaon as a good example of how right you are. First, that is completely forgetting all of the issues that he has had to overcome (not an excuse, but, he has dealt with a lot and is behind a bit), and 2nd, the running game and defense have done well.

 

He is failing right now, because, he is not the QB he has been in his previous two seasons.....and, what do you know, the team is suffering because of it. I've never seen a guy get so little credit for his wins and positive statistics and so much blame for his losses and negative statistics.

 

You can call him middle of the pack all you want, but, I can show you some remarkable numbes as well, that you will just continue to ignore and not give him credit for. Truth is, he is probably somewhere between where I have him and you have him, though, I don't expect you to admit that.

 

 

 

perch answered some of this, but i'll reiterate:

 

all the team needed from ben was 9 points... they/he couldn't do it. bottom line is, is that he does not excel when playing from behind (and he has not had to do a lot of that) or needing to throw. you talk about "all these issues." he is not the only qb to have to overcome inury, etc. in fact the dumbass jeopardized his team and himself for by his wreckless behavior in the offseason. i give him little credit for the teams wins because i don't see them attributed to him. i will also not throw a tremendous amount of blame on him for the losses, only note that it is an indication of the type of qb he is..... and isn't. what remarkable numbers are you talking about? and don't give me w/l... because i only feel he has been a small part of those. of coarse i am not going to admit that he is somewhere in between the best qb and middle of the pack because i never thought he was better than that. this is not out of spite or pride. this is from my observations of qb's since i started following football in the late 70's. but your starting to lower him might be an indication that you are starting to see things more clearly (though you are not there yet )

[Menudo]

perch answered some of this, but i'll reiterate:

 

all the team needed from ben was 9 points... they/he couldn't do it. bottom line is, is that he does not excel when playing from behind (and he has not had to do a lot of that) or needing to throw. you talk about "all these issues." he is not the only qb to have to overcome inury, etc. in fact the dumbass jeopardized his team and himself for by his wreckless behavior in the offseason. i give him little credit for the teams wins because i don't see them attributed to him. i will also not throw a tremendous amount of blame on him for the losses, only note that it is an indication of the type of qb he is..... and isn't. what remarkable numbers are you talking about? and don't give me w/l... because i only feel he has been a small part of those. of coarse i am not going to admit that he is somewhere in between the best qb and middle of the pack because i never thought he was better than that. this is not out of spite or pride. this is from my observations of qb's since i started following football in the late 70's. but your starting to lower him might be an indication that you are starting to see things more clearly (though you are not there yet )

 

 

The other numbers I was referring to was his QB rating. Yardage and TD's can be in direct coorelation with pass attempts, but, QB Rating is based on how efficient a QB is.

 

In his rookie year, he was 5th in the league with a 98.1 rating

Last year, he was 3rd in the league with a 98.6 rating (behind only Peyton & Carson)

In the post-season last year, despite a 28 rating in the Super Bowl, he was 1st in QB Rating

 

He also led the league in yards per attempt and TD %

He owns the rookie record for completion % and QB Rating

 

However, I'm sure ALL of that credit goes to the team he plays on.

 

As for why I am down on him a bit, isn't it obvious, his play has been awful.....

[wildcat2334]

Menudo

 

Even talking about Ben & Palmer together is LAUGHABLE and an insult to Carson.

 

as for QB skills, I reiterate, he cannot carry Brady, BOTH Mannings, Hass, Bulger's jock- the list goes on.

 

he hit the lottery getting picked by Pitt and he had some nice success- but as a product of the system- no more, and as they struggle, his lack of QB skills will be on display.

 

I am done here

[Menudo]

I am done here

 

 

Me too. You have your opinion and I have mine. The cool thing is, the guy has a long career left (hopefully), and a lot of the story is yet to unfold.

[Menudo]

A little something that I found interesting.

 

The truth about Big Ben

 

 

Can the most successful third-year quarterback in NFL history -- a quarterback who loses a game about as often as he loses an appendix -- possibly be underrated?

Yes, and thank you for asking.

 

Actually, underappreciated might be the more appropriate term for Ben Roethlisberger, who will miss tonight's opener against the Miami Dolphins on account of his emergency appendectomy Sunday.

 

The Steelers will not crumble in his absence. Tommy Maddox doesn't live here anymore, so as long as Charlie Batch stays upright, the club should be able to survive even a couple of games without Big Ben.

 

At worst, they'll split.

 

But let's not kid ourselves. Roethlisberger is the Steelers' best player. He's the main reason the franchise snapped that pesky, 25-year Super Bowl drought, and he's the biggest key to winning it all again.

 

He's also one of the top five quarterbacks in football, and I'm not sure I'd rather have anyone else if I needed to win, say, a playoff game in Denver.

 

What's amazing is that so few people would agree with me.

 

What's even more amazing is that so many people still consider Roethlisberger to be more a function of the Steelers' system than anything else.

 

Take Sports Illustrated's Paul Zimmerman -- aka Dr. Z -- who is very good but who deserves an 'F' for his recent assessment of Big Ben. The subject matter was active quarterbacks who might be first-ballot Hall of Famers. Dr. Z began with Tom Brady, Peyton Manning, Carson Palmer, Brett Favre and Roethlisberger.

 

So far, so good. But in differentiating between Palmer and Roethlisberger, the 'Z Man' writes, "I like Palmer's chances better. He seems to carry the team, whereas Roethlisberger, as effective as he is, is more a product of the system."

 

How many times have you heard that in the past two years? It's right up there with the line that goes, "The Steelers don't ask Roethlisberger to do too much."

 

Unless you include the part about them asking him to carry them to the Super Bowl, that is.

 

Remember, the Steelers' running game wasn't working all that well during the historic run through Cincinnati, Indianapolis and Denver. So, they put their trust in Roethlisberger. They came out passing in all three games, and all he did was ring up the fourth-best three-game playoff passer rating (125.8) in NFL history.

 

Behind some guys named Montana, Simms and Aikman.

 

It's true that the Steelers system fits Roethlisberger's talents, and that he's lucky to have so much talent around him. But couldn't the same be said of every great quarterback? The West Coast offense and throwing to Jerry Rice kind of fit Joe Montana's skill set, wouldn't you say?

 

What's also true of Roethlisberger is that he does some of his best work when "the system" breaks down.

 

Remember that touchdown pass just before the half in the AFC title game, the one where he scrambled away from pressure and lofted a ball just over 20 Broncos fingertips, to Hines Ward in the back of the end zone? That wasn't in the game plan. Neither was a similar, Elway-like scramble-and-chuck to Ward in the Super Bowl.

 

You know, the one where Roethlisberger straddled the line of scrimmage before heaving a cross-field cannon shot.

 

How many other quarterbacks make that play?

 

Roethlisberger is stunningly efficient, and it's not as if he dinks and dunks his way down the field. He led the NFL in two telling categories last season -- yards per attempt and touchdown percentage.

 

He obviously had a bad Super Bowl, but, like a pitcher without his best stuff, he battled and stayed in the game. Besides the big pass to Ward, he ran for a touchdown, threw a key block on the gadget-play touchdown and turned a broken play into a first down when the Steelers were running out the clock.

 

In other words, he found ways to help his team win the game, which is what a complete football player does. And which no quarterback in the NFL does better. Roethlisberger's career record stands at 27-4.

 

Yeah, 27-4.

[Bengal Mania]

I am done here

 

 

now we're talkin'!

 

Me too.

 

 

way to go, Menu-do!

 

A little something that I found interesting.

 

The truth about Big Ben

 

blah

 

blah

 

blah

 

 

 

liar - you said you were done

[Perchoutofwater]

The other numbers I was referring to was his QB rating. Yardage and TD's can be in direct coorelation with pass attempts, but, QB Rating is based on how efficient a QB is.

 

In his rookie year, he was 5th in the league with a 98.1 rating

Last year, he was 3rd in the league with a 98.6 rating (behind only Peyton & Carson)

In the post-season last year, despite a 28 rating in the Super Bowl, he was 1st in QB Rating

 

He also led the league in yards per attempt and TD %

He owns the rookie record for completion % and QB Rating

 

However, I'm sure ALL of that credit goes to the team he plays on.

 

As for why I am down on him a bit, isn't it obvious, his play has been awful.....

 

 

QB ratings are bogus. Who had the better passer rating last year? Vince Young or Matt Lienart? Well last year it was Vince Young. Do you believe that VY is a better passer than Lienart? I'm a Texas fan, and I don't believe that he is. His QB rating was a product of the system he was in. He didn't have to throw the ball that often. Normally when Texas threw the ball, they threw it because the wanted to, not because they had too. When you are only throwing when you want to, you have a lot higher probabability of completing the pass. The Texas D kept Texas either ahead or close in most of their games, and their running game was so effective that they were rarely in 3rd and long situations. Thus VY's passer rating was great. The same thing can be said for Ben.

Edited September 26, 2006 by Perchoutofwater

[schadenfreude]

Remarkable difference ?

 

Which part ? The part that he is 4-5 when his defense allow 20 or more and Ben is 3-3 ?

 

I also found it humorous that you cited this sesaon as a good example of how right you are. First, that is completely forgetting all of the issues that he has had to overcome (not an excuse, but, he has dealt with a lot and is behind a bit), and 2nd, the running game and defense have done well.

 

He is failing right now, because, he is not the QB he has been in his previous two seasons.....and, what do you know, the team is suffering because of it. I've never seen a guy get so little credit for his wins and positive statistics and so much blame for his losses and negative statistics.

 

You can call him middle of the pack all you want, but, I can show you some remarkable numbes as well, that you will just continue to ignore and not give him credit for. Truth is, he is probably somewhere between where I have him and you have him, though, I don't expect you to admit that.

 

 

I must say that I was really ticked when Ben threw the pick with the Steelers up 7-0 with first and goal at the 4, and I was even angrier when he threw the second pick on the deep pass down the middle (on a pass Favre would throw).

 

That being said, with Ward playing hurt, outside of Miller, the Steelers' receivers have not done Ben any favors. Steeler fan you are, you no doubt noticed the three drops in the first half of the Jacksonville game (one by Wilson, one by Ward and one by Haynes), all of which were third down throws that would have resulted in first downs to keep drives alive.

 

Look what happened in the second half last Sunday. The first two times Pittsburgh had the ball in the second half, Ben helped lead them to ten points. On Pittsburgh's third and fourth possessions, his receivers dropped perfectly thrown third down passes (first Wilson, then Washington). That's a big deal when the team on the other side is the Bengals' offense! (which by the way was held in check by the D on their first five second half possessions)

 

My point is simply this: Ben has not played well, to be sure, but his receivers have been a much greater disappointment.

 

P.S. For what it's worth, before the season, I didn't think they'd miss Randle El all that much. But those guys they have returning punts are PITIFUL.