Romo's fumble

[detlef]

Det, as i said above, your not rewarding him for dropping the ball...your rewarding him for recovering. that is something rare and difficult to do. the vast majority of the time someone else recovers it. that's why it should be rewarded. it's not really a reward. ANYONE who recovers gets 4. and again, as i said above, it's probably a result of IDP scoring.

Dude, I understand the guy is not being rewarded specifically for dropping the ball. However, the net point gain of fumbling and recovering your own fumble is more than never having fumbled at all. That is the problem because nearly every time, you're better off simply not fumbling to begin with rather than fumbling and recovering your own fumble.

 

Further, at least in my viewing history, especially with QBs, it's not as totally rare as you say. I would imagine that it happens at least 5 times per week (taking all the games into account, of course). I mean, every time a QB drops a snap and immediately picks it up, doesn't that count as fumbling and getting your own fumble? I see that happen all the time. Further, I typically use CBS sportsline as a game tracker and their stats often show QBs with one fumble and one recovery. My guess is that, more times than not, it's his own fumble.

 

And yes, I realize that this is the result of rewarding IDPs. Once again, however, you've created the unintended consequence of making it more profitable to have your fantasy QB to drop and pick up a ball than it is for him to execute the play in a better manner. Now, just making it +4 for defensive players only doesn't fix it because it is no less important for an offensive player to recover his or a teammates fumble than it is for a defender to recovers an opponents. Making it a net zero action, however, works just fine.

 

None the less, it's your league...

[keggerz]

I dont believe this is correct... I think they only markit a fumble if it is lost. BJ?

both are recorded

[keggerz]

Dude, I understand the guy is not being rewarded specifically for dropping the ball. However, the net point gain of fumbling and recovering your own fumble is more than never having fumbled at all. That is the problem because nearly every time, you're better off simply not fumbling to begin with rather than fumbling and recovering your own fumble.

 

Further, at least in my viewing history, especially with QBs, it's not as totally rare as you say. I would imagine that it happens at least 5 times per week (taking all the games into account, of course). I mean, every time a QB drops a snap and immediately picks it up, doesn't that count as fumbling and getting your own fumble? I see that happen all the time. Further, I typically use CBS sportsline as a game tracker and their stats often show QBs with one fumble and one recovery. My guess is that, more times than not, it's his own fumble.

 

And yes, I realize that this is the result of rewarding IDPs. Once again, however, you've created the unintended consequence of making it more profitable to have your fantasy QB to drop and pick up a ball than it is for him to execute the play in a better manner. Now, just making it +4 for defensive players only doesn't fix it because it is no less important for an offensive player to recover his or a teammates fumble than it is for a defender to recovers an opponents. Making it a net zero action, however, works just fine.

 

None the less, it's your league...

Fumbling is bad, losing a fumble is worse....a player should be penalized for fumbling since it is bad(even if its not a lost fumble the opportunity for a turnover was presented and thats not good)...probably should be penalized more for losing a fumble

 

Recovering a fumble is good and should be rewarded...a QB recovering his own fumble is still a good thing...even if he fumbled it....had he not fumbled it the 2nd time his recovery would have saved his team 5 points...remember when I think Brad Johnson caught his own pass....should he have been awarded reception points and the points for the TD in leagues that score for those things? I am sure he didnt intend to end up with the ball...thing is there are always crazy plays that are outliers....a QB fumbling and recovering his own fumble would be one of those outliers....if the RB put the ball on the carpet and the QB recovered it would it then be ok to give the QB points for a fumble recovery? Why yes it would be.

 

In some IDP leagues I am in OFFENSIVE players get points for making tackles(on turnovers of course) so what happens if a QB throws an INT and then tackles the guy that intercepted it? Does he not deserve points for the tackle if the rules state that all players get X points for a tackle? Of course he deserves those points

Edited September 16, 2008 by keggerz

[hooknladder]

Fumbling is bad, losing a fumble is worse....a player should be penalized for fumbling since it is bad(even if its not a lost fumble the opportunity for a turnover was presented and thats not good)...probably should be penalized more for losing a fumble

 

Recovering a fumble is good and should be rewarded...a QB recovering his own fumble is still a good thing...even if he fumbled it....had he not fumbled it the 2nd time his recovery would have saved his team 5 points...remember when I think Brad Johnson caught his own pass....should he have been awarded reception points and the points for the TD in leagues that score for those things? I am sure he didnt intend to end up with the ball...thing is there are always crazy plays that are outliers....a QB fumbling and recovering his own fumble would be one of those outliers....if the RB put the ball on the carpet and the QB recovered it would it then be ok to give the QB points for a fumble recovery? Why yes it would be.

 

In some IDP leagues I am in OFFENSIVE players get points for making tackles(on turnovers of course) so what happens if a QB throws an INT and then tackles the guy that intercepted it? Does he not deserve points for the tackle if the rules state that all players get X points for a tackle? Of course he deserves those points

 

and our league is like that to...offensive players get a point per tackle just like defensive players. as Keg said, if the QB tackles the interceptor should he not get a point since he created the interception in the 1st place. are you rewarding him for the interception...or the tackle he made?

[hooknladder]

....and still the question is...why is it not recorded in the gamebook?

[Big John]

....and still the question is...why is it not recorded in the gamebook?

Likely some at NFL mis-recorded it. All stats get reviewed and corrections are usually made by Wednesday night.

[hooknladder]

Likely some at NFL mis-recorded it. All stats get reviewed and corrections are usually made by Wednesday night.

 

thanks BJ

[LooGie]

No league Ive ever played in has EVER scored anything for a fumble that is recovered by the same team. You only get points (or lose them) for fumbles lost.

my leagues take away a half a point for a fumble and 2 points for a fumble lost.

 

 

heh, I had a long bitchy post typed up here slamming you for being so matter of factly about how "NO LEAGUE EVER HAS SCORED ANYTHING FOR A FUMBLE" etc etc...until i saw you said "NO LEAGUE I'VE EVER PLAYED..." glad i caught that. i coulda really looked dumb there

 

LIke WAY more than usual

[hooknladder]

my leagues take away a half a point for a fumble and 2 points for a fumble lost.

 

 

heh, I had a long bitchy post typed up here slamming you for being so matter of factly about how "NO LEAGUE EVER HAS SCORED ANYTHING FOR A FUMBLE" etc etc...until i saw you said "NO LEAGUE I'VE EVER PLAYED..." glad i caught that. i coulda really looked dumb there

 

LIke WAY more than usual

......and i held off on a post directed at Detlef........something to the effect "go back to your fondu' and room temperature Pino Noir, Mr Belvadere"....(yes i know the spelling is probably all f'd up), and i'm glad i did..............it's a kinder, gentler, Huddle.

[detlef]

Fumbling is bad, losing a fumble is worse....a player should be penalized for fumbling since it is bad(even if its not a lost fumble the opportunity for a turnover was presented and thats not good)...probably should be penalized more for losing a fumble

 

Recovering a fumble is good and should be rewarded...a QB recovering his own fumble is still a good thing...even if he fumbled it....had he not fumbled it the 2nd time his recovery would have saved his team 5 points...remember when I think Brad Johnson caught his own pass....should he have been awarded reception points and the points for the TD in leagues that score for those things? I am sure he didnt intend to end up with the ball...thing is there are always crazy plays that are outliers....a QB fumbling and recovering his own fumble would be one of those outliers....if the RB put the ball on the carpet and the QB recovered it would it then be ok to give the QB points for a fumble recovery? Why yes it would be.

 

In some IDP leagues I am in OFFENSIVE players get points for making tackles(on turnovers of course) so what happens if a QB throws an INT and then tackles the guy that intercepted it? Does he not deserve points for the tackle if the rules state that all players get X points for a tackle? Of course he deserves those points

I’m not exactly why you quoted my post in your response because it barely addresses anything I said. For starters, I completely agree that losing a fumble is worse than simply putting the ball on the ground and having your teammate or yourself recover it. I don’t see how either what hookandladder or my suggestion to him changes that. I agree that you should lose more points for fumbles lost to the other team but that is not what is being discussed.

 

I understand that you need to allow offensive players to earn points for IDP plays because, as you said, they might become defenders at some point. None the less, this is still accomplished if you make recovering worth the same as fumbling. Additionally, simply making the lost points and earned points the same still addresses the need to reward another offensive player for saving his teammates ass or for a player to save his own ass.

 

Quite simply: QB fumbles, he loses 2 pts. RB recovers, he gains 2 pt. The guy who screwed up loses points, the guy who did the good thing gets points. If that is the same player who screwed up, he cancels out. My issue is and has only been the fact that QB fumbles, he loses 2 pts, then he jumps on the ball and earns 4 pts. QB is rewarded with half as many points for that wasted play as most leagues give for throwing a TD. Is it half as good to waste a play than it is to throw a TD?

 

As for the Brad Johnson deal. Funny thing is, I thought of that as I wrote what I did. Two things: For starters to mention a QB recovering his own fumble and that once in a decade (if that often) event in the same sentence as “outliners” is a joke. The qb fumble thing happens all the time. Secondly, the Brad Johnson play was way more impressive on his part than a dude simply putting the rock on the ground and falling on it (or even picking it up). So, one is an amazing heads up play that earned his team a TD, the other is simply salvaging what is likely a barely adequate outcome from a screw up.

[hooknladder]

I’m not exactly why you quoted my post in your response because it barely addresses anything I said. For starters, I completely agree that losing a fumble is worse than simply putting the ball on the ground and having your teammate or yourself recover it. I don’t see how either what hookandladder or my suggestion to him changes that. I agree that you should lose more points for fumbles lost to the other team but that is not what is being discussed.

 

I understand that you need to allow offensive players to earn points for IDP plays because, as you said, they might become defenders at some point. None the less, this is still accomplished if you make recovering worth the same as fumbling. Additionally, simply making the lost points and earned points the same still addresses the need to reward another offensive player for saving his teammates ass or for a player to save his own ass.

 

Quite simply: QB fumbles, he loses 2 pts. RB recovers, he gains 2 pt. The guy who screwed up loses points, the guy who did the good thing gets points. If that is the same player who screwed up, he cancels out. My issue is and has only been the fact that QB fumbles, he loses 2 pts, then he jumps on the ball and earns 4 pts. QB is rewarded with half as many points for that wasted play as most leagues give for throwing a TD. Is it half as good to waste a play than it is to throw a TD?

 

As for the Brad Johnson deal. Funny thing is, I thought of that as I wrote what I did. Two things: For starters to mention a QB recovering his own fumble and that once in a decade (if that often) event in the same sentence as “outliners” is a joke. The qb fumble thing happens all the time. Secondly, the Brad Johnson play was way more impressive on his part than a dude simply putting the rock on the ground and falling on it (or even picking it up). So, one is an amazing heads up play that earned his team a TD, the other is simply salvaging what is likely a barely adequate outcome from a screw up.

 

now i wish i made the fondu' comment..... 5 time a week? -not even close. the QB interception scenario is the best way we can make our point.....you just don't get it

[keggerz]

I’m not exactly why you quoted my post in your response because it barely addresses anything I said. For starters, I completely agree that losing a fumble is worse than simply putting the ball on the ground and having your teammate or yourself recover it. I don’t see how either what hookandladder or my suggestion to him changes that. I agree that you should lose more points for fumbles lost to the other team but that is not what is being discussed.

 

I understand that you need to allow offensive players to earn points for IDP plays because, as you said, they might become defenders at some point. None the less, this is still accomplished if you make recovering worth the same as fumbling. Additionally, simply making the lost points and earned points the same still addresses the need to reward another offensive player for saving his teammates ass or for a player to save his own ass.

 

Quite simply: QB fumbles, he loses 2 pts. RB recovers, he gains 2 pt. The guy who screwed up loses points, the guy who did the good thing gets points. If that is the same player who screwed up, he cancels out. My issue is and has only been the fact that QB fumbles, he loses 2 pts, then he jumps on the ball and earns 4 pts. QB is rewarded with half as many points for that wasted play as most leagues give for throwing a TD. Is it half as good to waste a play than it is to throw a TD?

 

As for the Brad Johnson deal. Funny thing is, I thought of that as I wrote what I did. Two things: For starters to mention a QB recovering his own fumble and that once in a decade (if that often) event in the same sentence as “outliners” is a joke. The qb fumble thing happens all the time. Secondly, the Brad Johnson play was way more impressive on his part than a dude simply putting the rock on the ground and falling on it (or even picking it up). So, one is an amazing heads up play that earned his team a TD, the other is simply salvaging what is likely a barely adequate outcome from a screw up.

some people would argue that recovering a fumble is very important play and one that warrants more points the what a LOST fumble is....that was my point..and I think it directly addressed what you were intimating ...i also think you would be surprised at how many fumbles QBs lose compared to recover(when its their own fumble)

[detlef]

now i wish i made the fondu' comment..... 5 time a week? -not even close. the QB interception scenario is the best way we can make our point.....you just don't get it

Way off?

 

Check the stats for last week's games.

 

A Rodgers 2 fumbles, 1 lost, 1 recovered

JT O Sullivan 1 fumble, 1 fumble recovery

Patrick Crayton 1 fumble, 1 fumble recovery

Ricky Williams 1 fumble, 1 recovery

M Trufant 1 fumble 1 recovery.

 

Now, I don't know what is up with Trufant but he was not credited for a forced fumble. Not sure what he was doing with the ball and whether or not he recovered and then fumbled rather than the other way around. So let's just exclude him

 

As far as the rest, there's little evidence to support that any of them were anything other than a guy recovering his own fumble. In each case, the rest were all accounted for.

 

So, what was that about fondue?

[keggerz]

As for the Brad Johnson deal. Funny thing is, I thought of that as I wrote what I did. Two things: For starters to mention a QB recovering his own fumble and that once in a decade (if that often) event in the same sentence as “outliners” is a joke. The qb fumble thing happens all the time. Secondly, the Brad Johnson play was way more impressive on his part than a dude simply putting the rock on the ground and falling on it (or even picking it up). So, one is an amazing heads up play that earned his team a TD, the other is simply salvaging what is likely a barely adequate outcome from a screw up.

you are kidding right? i mean a QB that loses the ball in the EZ and then recovers it to keep the other team from scoring is just simply salvaging a play?

Seriously even if he would have recovered it and give up a safety that is MUCH better then giving up a TD(of course he did that because he had slippery fingers)

[detlef]

some people would argue that recovering a fumble is very important play and one that warrants more points the what a LOST fumble is....that was my point..and I think it directly addressed what you were intimating ...i also think you would be surprised at how many fumbles QBs lose compared to recover(when its their own fumble)

I'm sure they lose plenty. What does that have to do with giving a player a net gain of points worth half as much as most leagues reward for throwing a TD for something that is not as crazy rare as you guys seem to be saying it is.

[detlef]

you are kidding right? i mean a QB that loses the ball in the EZ and then recovers it to keep the other team from scoring is just simply salvaging a play?

Seriously even if he would have recovered it and give up a safety that is MUCH better then giving up a TD(of course he did that because he had slippery fingers)

Dude, can you freaking read?

 

One QB takes the snap, drops back, and throws an incomplete pass. That earns you no fantasy points.

 

Another QB takes a snap, drops it on the ground, recovers it, and then gets creamed for a 10 yard loss. That earns you a net 2 pts in hookandladders scoring.

 

Why is that good? Which QB did better?

 

Yes, it is certainly far better to recover your own fumble, even in the endzone than it is to lose it. However, it is still better to have never fumbled it to begin with. What part of this don't you get?

 

Oh, and yes, I would say that fumbling the ball in your endzone and recovering it is at best barely adequate. I would hope that most teams have higher aspirations than simply not losing a fumble to the other team in the endzone or anywhere for that matter when they snap the ball.

Edited September 17, 2008 by detlef

[hooknladder]

Way off?

 

Check the stats for last week's games.

 

A Rodgers 2 fumbles, 1 lost, 1 recovered

JT O Sullivan 1 fumble, 1 fumble recovery

Patrick Crayton 1 fumble, 1 fumble recovery

Ricky Williams 1 fumble, 1 recovery

M Trufant 1 fumble 1 recovery.

 

Now, I don't know what is up with Trufant but he was not credited for a forced fumble. Not sure what he was doing with the ball and whether or not he recovered and then fumbled rather than the other way around. So let's just exclude him

 

As far as the rest, there's little evidence to support that any of them were anything other than a guy recovering his own fumble. In each case, the rest were all accounted for.

 

So, what was that about fondue?

 

do those stats refect recovering their OWN fumble?......and i would remind you it's week 2.(still shaking off the rust), of all the plays, and all the fumbles, in the course of a season, would'nt you agree it's rare?

[keggerz]

no i cant read and evidently i dont talk to walls well either

[hooknladder]

I'm sure they lose plenty. What does that have to do with giving a player a net gain of points worth half as much as most leagues reward for throwing a TD for something that is not as crazy rare as you guys seem to be saying it is.

 

all TDs are 6 pts. in my league,(just like the NFL), less than 6 is weak

[hooknladder]

Dude, can you freaking read?

 

One QB takes the snap, drops back, and throws an incomplete pass. That earns you no fantasy points.

 

Another QB takes a snap, drops it on the ground, recovers it, and then gets creamed for a 10 yard loss. That earns you a net 2 pts in hookandladders scoring.

 

Why is that good? Which QB did better?

 

Yes, it is certainly far better to recover your own fumble, even in the endzone than it is to lose it. However, it is still better to have never fumbled it to begin with. What part of this don't you get?

 

Oh, and yes, I would say that fumbling the ball in your endzone and recovering it is at best barely adequate. I would hope that most teams have higher aspirations than simply not losing a fumble to the other team in the endzone or anywhere for that matter when they snap the ball.

 

 

you answered your own question

[detlef]

do those stats refect recovering their OWN fumble?......and i would remind you it's week 2.(still shaking off the rust), of all the plays, and all the fumbles, in the course of a season, would'nt you agree it's rare?

As I said, the evidence seemed to support that. In Ricky Williams case, his was the only fumble Miami had so it had to be. In the others cases, any other fumbles by teammates were also charged with a lost fumble so, yes, that reflected their own.

 

Now, perhaps you are right, perhaps it's early season rust. I just threw out the 5 anyway because I've been watching football for about 30 years and have seen players (QBs in particular) drop a snap on the ground and pick it up far too many times to think of it as extremely rare. Rare? Certainly. After all, 32 teams competed last week and only 4-5 players on all those teams did what I'm talking about. However, it is not so rare that there isn't a pretty decent chance that at least one player on one person's fantasy starting roster is doing something like this most weeks. That is often enough IMO to warrant changing the rules to avoid rewarding this behavior. Because that means maybe 10 times over the course of a season, somebody is getting extra points for something pretty stupid.

 

Certainly it's common enough to not get lumped in with the famous Brad Johnson play.

 

That's really all.

[keggerz]

As I said, the evidence seemed to support that. In Ricky Williams case, his was the only fumble Miami had so it had to be. In the others cases, any other fumbles by teammates were also charged with a lost fumble so, yes, that reflected their own.

 

Now, perhaps you are right, perhaps it's early season rust. I just threw out the 5 anyway because I've been watching football for about 30 years and have seen players (QBs in particular) drop a snap on the ground and pick it up far too many times to think of it as extremely rare. Rare? Certainly. After all, 32 teams competed last week and only 4-5 players on all those teams did what I'm talking about. However, it is not so rare that there isn't a pretty decent chance that at least one player on one person's fantasy starting roster is doing something like this most weeks. That is often enough IMO to warrant changing the rules to avoid rewarding this behavior. Because that means maybe 10 times over the course of a season, somebody is getting extra points for something pretty stupid.

 

Certainly it's common enough to not get lumped in with the famous Brad Johnson play.

 

That's really all.

if you are going to throw out stats as your support...do your homework instead of hoping you are correct....play by play is your friend

[keggerz]

As I said, the evidence seemed to support that. In Ricky Williams case, his was the only fumble Miami had so it had to be. In the others cases, any other fumbles by teammates were also charged with a lost fumble so, yes, that reflected their own.

 

Now, perhaps you are right, perhaps it's early season rust. I just threw out the 5 anyway because I've been watching football for about 30 years and have seen players (QBs in particular) drop a snap on the ground and pick it up far too many times to think of it as extremely rare. Rare? Certainly. After all, 32 teams competed last week and only 4-5 players on all those teams did what I'm talking about. However, it is not so rare that there isn't a pretty decent chance that at least one player on one person's fantasy starting roster is doing something like this most weeks. That is often enough IMO to warrant changing the rules to avoid rewarding this behavior. Because that means maybe 10 times over the course of a season, somebody is getting extra points for something pretty stupid.

 

Certainly it's common enough to not get lumped in with the famous Brad Johnson play.

 

That's really all.

maybe I should have said as compared to the majority of fumble recoveries? Let me pull a detlef and say that I am sure that most leagues figure that the defense(or d player for idp leagues) are the ones that recover the majority of fumbles when they make their rules...so they dont particularly look at a QB fumbling and recovering his own fumble when they come up with what points a fumble recovery will be....thus making it an outlier, imo

 

all that an no statistical support other then my very own assumptions

[detlef]

if you are going to throw out stats as your support...do your homework instead of hoping you are correct....play by play is your friend

You mean like this?

 

(6:49) T.Romo pass short left to P.Crayton to DAL 18 for 8 yards (S.Brown). FUMBLES (S.Brown), and recovers at DAL 17. P.Crayton to DAL 17 for no gain (S.Brown).

 

Now, of course, simply noticing that the only other fumble Dallas was charged with making was Romos and that one was also charged as a lost fumble isn't exactly guessing that Crayton got his own now is it.

 

Seriously, what is your point. All I've been saying is that a player should not earn a net point advantage for doing something that I'm pretty sure nobody would agree is an overall good thing. Can we at least establish that fumbling and recovering your own fumble is nearly always not as good as simply not fumbling. Can we just put that behind and move on from there?

 

You do realize that is the stance you are arguing against, don't you?

[detlef]

maybe I should have said as compared to the majority of fumble recoveries? Let me pull a detlef and say that I am sure that most leagues figure that the defense(or d player for idp leagues) are the ones that recover the majority of fumbles when they make their rules...so they dont particularly look at a QB fumbling and recovering his own fumble when they come up with what points a fumble recovery will be....thus making it an outlier, imo

 

all that an no statistical support other then my very own assumptions

Well, in order to "pull a detlef" you're going to actually have to make a point.

 

None the less, I suppose we have different standards.

 

I think that a QB fumbling in his own endzone and then recovering it is certainly not better than "barely adequate". You seem to think it's something that should be rewarded.

 

I think that a rule intended to reward defensive players for fumbles but also happens to reward offensive players for bonehead plays needs to be reworked. You seem not to mind flawed rules.

 

I seem to be aware that you can still reward defensive players for recovering fumbles and not giving players a net reward for fumbling and then recovering their own and you don't. Again, if you make the amount the same +/- this works just fine. IDPs get their love, offensive players get credit for bailing out a teammate, and players who salvage a play by covering their own mistake break even. You're going to need to explain what is wrong with that before we proceed.