Kill Orton Now

[lkirc]

I have no problem with a Denver fan calling for Tebow to get a shot. While I don't agree with it, they do have a ton invested in this guy. Just be patient. Fox will trot him out there when the season is lost just to show the fans that he is not the answer. Or perhaps he will trot Quinn out there to show the fans the same thing.

 

You have to be able to make the throws to be a QB in the NFL. Orton can. Tebow can't. If you can't throw an out, the defense doesn't have to defend a large portion of the field. Football 101, but sometimes you need visual proof.

[dfreeto]

...

That's hardly playing "well". To give him credit, he didn't throw an INT, though he did have a turnover on a fumble. He also did as best he could with an extremely limited WR crew.

...

 

I think Decker is quite an option for Denver.

[detlef]

So you buy into the Bronco mantra that Orton gives the team the best chance to win?

Yes I do. Mind you, I was on record as saying before that I could understand just throwing Tebow out there to know whether or not he's got the goods or that they should just turn the page.

 

However, I think I've changed my tune. Mostly because that is not a luxury afforded to most QBs in this league. If you can't win the job, you don't win the job. And, had McDaniel not reached for Tebow, nobody would give two poops about whether or not they should give him a chance that he apparently has not earned. How many 2nd or 3rd round QBs have you seen be able to force this sort of decision?

 

I mean, you really have to look at this from coach Fox's perspective. He didn't draft Tebow and apparently has not seen enough from him to feel that he deserves to start. In addition, he may have been among the majority of guys in the NFL who would not have taken Tebow where Denver did. So, now we're asking a guy who's been hired to win games to bench the guy who, through his evaluation, is the best QB on the roster, just in case a guy who someone else, but not he, thought was worthy of a 1st round pick, may be better?

 

Seems like a lot to ask. And, again, how many times have we actually seen this? At least by a 1-1 team. If they're 2-8? Sure, why not.

[untateve]

I played FF for 10 years before I joined The Huddle. Member numbers don't mean squat. In fact the only ones who even look at them are those with numbers under 100.

 

 

I essentially ignore the opinions of everyone with a member number higher than 20.

[She-Rocks]

I essentially ignore the opinions of everyone with a member number higher than 20.

 

[skinsfan827]

I have an opinion, but it's probably wrong due to my Member #.

[Caveman_Nick]

Mostly because that is not a luxury afforded to most QBs in this league. If you can't win the job, you don't win the job.

 

This is just flat out, demonstrably untrue. Many first round QBs have been handed the reigns over veteran options. Happens regularly. That doesn't make it the best choice, but I am not sure how anyone could deny that it happens (other factors often play a part, I know....like how Andy Dalton got the job).

 

That does not force some requirement on the coaching staff to do so nor does it answer whether or not Tebow was a reach where he was drafted. Sould Tebow be playing over Orton? I don't know. I think that if I were the coach I would make that move for the sake of taking the organization out of an odd kind of journeyman QB holding pattern, but then I am not there seeing what the coach sees.

[BillyBalata]

I essentially ignore the opinions of everyone with a member number higher than 20.

 

 

good call.

[Bronco Billy]

This is just flat out, demonstrably untrue. Many first round QBs have been handed the reigns over veteran options. Happens regularly. That doesn't make it the best choice, but I am not sure how anyone could deny that it happens (other factors often play a part, I know....like how Andy Dalton got the job).

 

That does not force some requirement on the coaching staff to do so nor does it answer whether or not Tebow was a reach where he was drafted. Sould Tebow be playing over Orton? I don't know. I think that if I were the coach I would make that move for the sake of taking the organization out of an odd kind of journeyman QB holding pattern, but then I am not there seeing what the coach sees.

 

Here's what I am seeing, and why I have my opinion that Tebow ought to be playing right now:

 

1) The excuse that Orton gives DEN the best chance to win is bull#### and anyone with half a brain in Denver knows it. That there is so much whining by some in DEN over the booing and Tebow chants is what shows a real lack of acumen - their derision is a response to the management's tacit contention that Broncos fans are morans and will believe everything they are told. Orton is 5-18 over his last 23 starts and 2-9 over his last 11 starts. His well documented substandard numbers on third downs, in the 4th quarter, and in the red zone aren't getting any better. If anything, they are getting worse. Plus, the guy turns the ball over at extraordinarily inopportune times - like at the end of the 3rd quarter yesterday or last week in the 4th quarter when he simply dropped the ball without being touched. Orton's reputation as a between-the-20s QB is well deserved. To think anyone actually believes that Orton gives DEN any edge for getting a W is insulting, and thus the fans simply pay the insult back during games.

 

2) The rest of the league must see what Tebow supporting Broncos fans do, and what Bronco management doesn't. Despite some teams being decidedly shorthanded at QB, not one team would ante up a 2012 3rd rounder for Orton, especially given his salary and contract status. And DEN thinks so much of their starting QB that they would have sent him packing for a 3rd rounder - so don't give us the best-chance-to-win BS please.

 

3) Orton is a UFA next season, and given his decided lack of ability to lead the team to Ws - despite the DEN management's contention and the facts of what his record as a starter is - and be anything other than a game manager, DEN is not going to pay what Orton thinks he is worth (in excess of $8M per year at least) to keep him around, especially since rookie salaries are under control. Orton is a classic lame duck QB. That being said, and seeing that while this team is getting better in some areas, that is is also startling weak in some others, there is no reason to allow an unknown talent like Tebow sitting on the bench and allowing Orton to get all the game reps. DEN is going to lose more games than it wins this year. That is a virtual fact. Why commit to a lame duck QB whose history and ability are very well documented and well known when fans can get a chance to see whether Tebow can learn on the job and be a future starter for this team, or if not then answer the questions about him conclusively and move on by taking a QB in the first half of the draft next year? Barring injuries, there will be at least 3 potential franchise QBs in the 2012 draft. This team needs to see whether Tebow can play QB at the NFL level or not before that draft occurs, and his sitting on the bench answers no questions.

 

4) DEN is going to be a losing team this year. But Tebow at least generates a ton of interest, both from his supporters and his detractors. That sells tickets. Tebow isn't without any skills. He showed some very nice touch and the ability to drop the ball in a bucket from 20+ yards on several occassions, has thrown a few money long passes, and his running ability adds a dimension that Orton clearly does not have (and helps tremendously with a very weak interior O-line). I was a Tebow skeptic until I saw him in game action last season, and saw some very real positives there. That doesn't mean I think Tebow is a surefire franchise QB, it means I think he needs some opportunity to see whether he can grow. The chances he got in this year's preseason were a very poor joke - and Brady f'n Quinn was taking reps from him. Really? C'mon! If anyone in management thinks Quinn is worthy of even being a 2nd stringer in the NFL, they are showing nothing other than that they are dunces and need to be sent packing in favor of hiring some people with real football intelligence. Talk about history - Quinn has it alright. Tebow has also shown that he is nails in the red zone when he has gotten the opportunity - an 80% regular season TD success rate. Is Tebow going to make mistakes? Sure, but at least they'll be exciting and unpredictable mistakes - unlike Orton's very predictable inability in the clutch.

 

I will say one thing - if you are going to treat the fans as completely stupid, piss down their backs and telling them it's raining like the company line is right now, and continue on this path, DEN is going to lose all the goodwill it earned by hiring Fox and Elway, and then some. And they are inviting a serious QB controversy to start next season, which the team definitely does not need. Potentially even worse, they are letting Tebow rot. If they do that and eventually let him go, and then he shows up somewhere else in the league and succeeds when someone decides to give him a chance and groom him, there will be a lynch mob at Broncos' offices.

Edited September 19, 2011 by Bronco Billy

[slambo]

You should have thought of this at 1:20am.

 

Yours truly,

 

#1998

 

Probably the Coors talking.

[detlef]

This is just flat out, demonstrably untrue. Many first round QBs have been handed the reigns over veteran options. Happens regularly. That doesn't make it the best choice, but I am not sure how anyone could deny that it happens (other factors often play a part, I know....like how Andy Dalton got the job).

 

That does not force some requirement on the coaching staff to do so nor does it answer whether or not Tebow was a reach where he was drafted. Sould Tebow be playing over Orton? I don't know. I think that if I were the coach I would make that move for the sake of taking the organization out of an odd kind of journeyman QB holding pattern, but then I am not there seeing what the coach sees.

I said "most" QBs and I do believe that is true. Your very statement basically confirms what I said. "Many first round QBs get handed the reigns". So, according to you, not even all of the 1st rounders do, which, when coupled with the number of QBs who get taken after the 1st and only get a sniff if their team is out of options, means that most do not.

 

So, considering that, according to most GMs, Tebow should not have been a 1st rounder, it seems odd to me that anyone should assume he should be given a shot unless he truly earns it.

 

Virtually every QB who has just been flat-out, handed the job was a top 10 pick.

Edited September 19, 2011 by detlef

[lkirc]

BB:

 

I didn't see Tebow play last year. His stats were good, but can he make NFL throws? Everybody says he can't throw to the outside unless it is over the top. What did you see?

 

If he can't make the throws, then he needs to be used in some other capacity. A guy with the kind of running ability, leadership skills, and size needs to be playing on Sunday at some position, especially if he was taken with a first round pick.

[Bronco Billy]

BB:

 

I didn't see Tebow play last year. His stats were good, but can he make NFL throws? Everybody says he can't throw to the outside unless it is over the top. What did you see?

 

If he can't make the throws, then he needs to be used in some other capacity. A guy with the kind of running ability, leadership skills, and size needs to be playing on Sunday at some position, especially if he was taken with a first round pick.

 

He hasn't got a cannon, if that is what you are asking. But he has shown some nice touch and throws a much better deep ball than I expected.

 

Tebow is better at rolling and throwing than he is standing in the pocket. You could get away with his arm strength on outside routes if you rolled him that way. Shanahan used to do that for Plummer because Plummer was much more effective on the move, and it also made for easier blocks for O-linemen.

Edited September 19, 2011 by Bronco Billy

[delusions of grandeur]

Bronco Billy, those are nice thoughts and everything, and I agree that at some point they probably need to just concede being a losing team this year, and keep butts in the seats by rolling out with Tebow... But let's not pretend that Tebow is being held back by an inferior QB. Orton didn't get the job because he's just that good (we all remember when Orton was as good as gone), he got the job because Tebow's fallen flat on his face since training camp started, and showed that he's clearly not even close to being ready.

 

Maybe by the middle to the end of of the season he can start evolving in the system to where he can show flashes like last year; But when you throw in the guy just because you don't like your starter, then you're only setting him up for failure (and let's remember that Tebow doesn't exactly handle adversity very well, such as the starting job being "taken from me" and his cryfest after the SECC).

 

So what's wrong with saying that Orton gives you the best chance to win right now? No, he might not be likely at all to take you to the playoffs, but he gives them the best chance to win games by default, because they don't have anybody better right now... I don't think they're doing anyone a service by rolling out Tebow too early, other than to say to the fans "I told you so"....

[detlef]

BB, so based on your long post, we should add "Denver management intentionally wants to piss off the fan-base" to list of other, perfectly reasonable theories that others have thrown out there like, "We hate him because he's Christian" and "We can't fathom his goodness and are, thus, afraid"?

 

Just because the best QB on their roster is not worth a 3rd rounder doesn't mean he's not the best QB on their roster.

 

On a team that was flat-out atrocious last year in so many regards, it amazes me that you bust out the fine-tooth comb when scrutinizing Orton. His situational stats. What were the situational stats for the D? I know one situation where they pretty much sucked. Keeping the other team from scoring.

[bankerboy]

BB, so based on your long post, we should add "Denver management intentionally wants to piss off the fan-base" to list of other, perfectly reasonable theories that others have thrown out there like, "We hate him because he's Christian" and "We can't fathom his goodness and are, thus, afraid"?

 

If we're trying to add off the wall reasons...I'll take a shot. In 2012 the Mayan calendar ends. It is at this point that you'll need the TouchDown Jesus.

 

[Bronco Billy]

he got the job because Tebow's fallen flat on his face since training camp started, and showed that he's clearly not even close to being ready.

 

I don't see where you could possibly have any evidence to support your position, unless you were to cite just how little work he has been given.

 

Through the preseason games, Tebow was 20 for 31 for 310 yds. That's a 65% completion percentage and a 10.0 ypa. If that's failing for you, I'd say that your standards might be a little bit high...

 

He also had 8 rushes for 55 yds - that's a 6.9 ypc

 

Let me know where the failure part comes in.

Edited September 19, 2011 by Bronco Billy

[Bronco Billy]

BB, so based on your long post, we should add "Denver management intentionally wants to piss off the fan-base" to list of other, perfectly reasonable theories that others have thrown out there like, "We hate him because he's Christian" and "We can't fathom his goodness and are, thus, afraid"?

 

Just because the best QB on their roster is not worth a 3rd rounder doesn't mean he's not the best QB on their roster.

 

On a team that was flat-out atrocious last year in so many regards, it amazes me that you bust out the fine-tooth comb when scrutinizing Orton. His situational stats. What were the situational stats for the D? I know one situation where they pretty much sucked. Keeping the other team from scoring.

 

So your position is that because the D sucked worse than he did, Orton is a good starting QB?

 

You have no idea how good or bad a QB Tebow is as a regular starter. Nor do I. We never will know until he gets a chance. My whole point, which apparently you missed. Care to rebut the points I laid out instead of your usual sorry-ass strawman arguments?

 

I do know what Orton is, though. I also know that Orton's record as a starter doesn't support his being presented as DEN's best chance to win.

Edited September 19, 2011 by Bronco Billy

[MrMoFo]

I essentially ignore the opinions of everyone with a member number higher than 20.

 

Judging by this thread, it seems the lower the member number, the higher the pr*ck quotient.

 

EDIT: Actually, some of you seem all right. But this member # thing is ridiculous.

Edited September 19, 2011 by MrMoFo

[delusions of grandeur]

I don't see where you could possibly have any evidence to support your position, unless you were to cite just how little work he has been given.

 

Through the preseason games, Tebow was 20 for 31 for 310 yds. That's a 65% completion percentage and a 10.0 ypa. If that's failing for you, I'd say that your standards might be a little bit high...

 

He also had 8 rushes for 55 yds - that's a 6.9 ypc

 

Let me know where the failure part comes in.

Compared to last season and his presumed status as the starter when Fox arrived, yes he has fallen falt on his face and lost the job they were fully ready to give him... I mean, Quinn went 14 for 20 in the second preseason game, so forgive me if I put more stock in what the coaching staff sees, along with every single person in attendance at training camp that confirmed that not only was Tebow getting vastly outplayed by Orton, but even Quinn.

 

Cmon man, you're just finding numbers to try to support your argument, because you follow the Broncos enough to know that they're not just making this stuff up about Tebow. He hasn't been good enough to win the starting job and shouldn't be given it until he does. Period.

[Bronco Billy]

Compared to last season and his presumed status as the starter when Fox arrived, yes he has fallen falt on his face and lost the job they were fully ready to give him... I mean, Quinn went 14 for 20 in the second preseason game, so forgive me if I put more stock in what the coaching staff sees, along with every single person in attendance at training camp that confirmed that not only was Tebow getting vastly outplayed by Orton, but even Quinn.

 

Cmon man, you're just finding numbers to try to support your argument, because you follow the Broncos enough to know that they're not just making this stuff up about Tebow. He hasn't been good enough to win the starting job and shouldn't be given it until he does. Period.

 

Fox also had DeAngelo Williams planted firmly behind DeShaun Foster at RB in CAR. Please don't tell me he's incapable of making a mistake.

[detlef]

So your position is that because the D sucked worse than he did, Orton is a good starting QB?

 

You have no idea how good or bad a QB Tebow is as a regular starter. Nor do I. We never will know until he gets a chance. My whole point, which apparently you missed. Care to rebut the points I laid out instead of your usual sorry-ass strawman arguments?

 

I do know what Orton is, though. I also know that Orton's record as a starter doesn't support his being presented as DEN's best chance to win.

1) In a word, no. That is not my point. My point is that it seems rather silly to dissect stats of a QB who did manage to put points on the board and point to situational stats that don't look so nice when the rest of the team is crumbling around him and is a total train wreck.

 

2) No, I don't have any idea how good Tebow is. Though I happened to share the opinion of most of the GMs in the NFL that feel Denver reached to take him where they did. So, my guess is that he's of the same pedigree of any number of other QBs who had to actually earn a shot at the job. Further, I'm not going to pretend that I'm a better evaluator of talent than either Elway or Fox, so there's that as well.

 

As far as ignoring your points. Did you, or did you not imply that there was no logical reason to start Orton and that they must simply be doing it to piss off the fans?

 

OK, so here's the rest of your "points":

 

Orton's record. Refer back to the point about the team sucking in general. Also, but for a come-from-behind victory against a Houston team that was falling apart at the seams and really couldn't stop anyone (Denver's 24 pts was the 3rd lowest points they'd allowed all season), Tebow is 0-3 instead of the gaudy 1-2.

 

I already addressed the 3rd rounder bit. Just because Orton isn't worth a 3rd, doesn't mean he's not the best QB they have.

 

UFA: Fine enough point, provided you're prepared to throw away the season after starting 1-1. Like I said earlier, I think that's a lot to ask of Fox, who was paid to win games.

 

You say they're destroying any of the goodwill they earned by bringing in Fox and Elway. So, just so I have this straight. You Denver fans are happy that you brought these guys in, but you want them to cave to fan pressure rather than start the guy they think gives them the best chance to win?

[Bronco Billy]

this thread had so much potential.

 

It's useless, like most Tebow threads. Some people are convinced he's a franchise QB, and there are just as many convinced he's a complete flop. A lot of times those judgments are made based upon bias that has nothing to do with football.

 

There is no way anyone can make a valid evaulation of this kid as a starting QB until he gets a chance to start in regular season games. I do know this kid has excelled at every other level he has played at despite having naysayers who stated assuredly that he couldn't succeed, and he has shown some very real NFL capability with the few chances he's been given on the field.

 

I guess some would rather watch Orton lead this team through another dismal season.

[delusions of grandeur]

Fox also had DeAngelo Williams planted firmly behind DeShaun Foster at RB in CAR. Please don't tell me he's incapable of making a mistake.

So what about every single beat-writer and person in attendance who clearly saw him getting outplayed and lose the starting gig? So I guess it was just coincidence that after those reports they went with Orton as the clear-cut starter... If you go back and read articles from that timeframe, there wasn't even really a dispute about who the starter was after training camp. Tebow wasn't even close to outplaying Orton, and although I admit I didn't watch much Broncos preseason, you may be the only person in the world citing that as a reason why he should get the nod over Orton. He simply didn't earn the job, and that shouldn't even be a dispute unless you're being a delusional homer.

 

Can he still succeed in the NFL, maybe so, but please don't compare Fox tending to give the veteran the nod to him somehow being "mistaken" about Tebow. If the kid ain't ready to supplant Orton, he ain't ready, and I haven't seen much indication that he's completely past his glaring mechanics issues either... The kid has always been a project QB (hence why it was a stupid 1st round pick), and like I said earlier, I don't think that he's going to succeed by getting thrown to the wolves before you work out all of his issues. It would just be setting him up for failure.

[delusions of grandeur]

I guess some would rather watch Orton lead this team through another dismal season.

You are simply unreal at twisting other people's opinions, but keep on believing that Tebow deserves a shot, even if he's far from ready... Be careful what you wish for...