Tipping question

[detlef]

detlef, being in the indusrty, I usually agree with you.

 

But taking back your 2% is simply cheap no matter how you justify it with free food, etc.

 

Yes you are in the right to keep it, but it just looks bad from an employee point of view.

 

And as a customer, if I found out that a restaurant owner was keeping part of my tip, I wouldn't go back.

 

 

Same with me. As a family we eat out very often. There have been plenty of places whacked off our list for one reason or another and as I mentioned I am not above talking to the wait person about the tip or the conditions of work. If I found out that a place was holding back 2% due to me using my CC I would not share my money with that place any longer. Now if the place wants to give me a 2% discount if I pay cash for my entire bill then maybe I could see this but I doubt it.

You guys both understand that the waiter is not being charge the CC fee on the entire check, rather the amount on the tip. The restaurant is not "keeping" that money. Rather, it is not paying that money to the credit card company on behalf of the waiter. The money you add as a tip to the bottom of your check is money that the restaurant never sees. At the end of that night, the waiter runs a report and the restaurant hands them over cash for whatever tips were charged.

 

To be honest, the restaurant deals with negative cash-flow to do this for the waiter. We never take cash to the bank. We go to the bank to get cash for our waiters. So, I pull out $1000 or so a few times a week. Diner eats, pays, waiter gets paid. Me? I get mine 2-3 days later when the CC deposits post.

 

People tend to fixate on the "petty" nature of things but every business has "petty" expenses and they all add up. You owe it to merchants that you patronize not to assume you understand the entire picture of their place before you boycott them. Once again, from your statements, it seems like my place would be blacklisted because of this policy. Funny, however, that you would do this in support of a waitstaff that, to a person, would tell you they don't feel at all screwed by me.

[detlef]

One more thing. Take people who cut hair. They rent a chair from the salon. Nobody has any idea what percent of what they get paid they get to keep and what they have to pay the house. If the salon/barbershop is in a good location. If the person cutting the hair feels that the establishment puts them into position to make money, then they go ahead and pay whatever cut they're supposed to pay. If not, the go someplace else.

 

Believe me, there's no shortage of ways I could squeeze my staff in manners that wouldn't cause the ire of people who don't know the whole picture. I just appreciate transparency. The waiters know the deal. I will put them into a good position to make money. I won't make them do crap work like other places do. I wont be an a-hole to them when they make mistakes. However, like I won't pay their taxes, I won't pay their "taxes" either. Any waiter who refused to work for me because of this policy should know that they're turning their back on a pretty good job over some petty stance.

 

OK, I'm on a roll now.

 

There's a website called waiterrant.com that is devoted to basically whining about both crappy customers and greedy owners. This topic was brought up there as well. It escalated into a whine-fest of biblical proportions. Even to this extent: One part-time bartender used to be on the on-call list to do parties for a certain restaurant. He claimed it worked out nicely for him because they had gigs as often as he needed them and was able to turn them down if his band had a show. The money, he said, was really nice as well. Then he found out that the client was charged a flat rate per bartender and that rate was more than the bartender made. He was furious and never did another gig for the guy again. Again, the angry masses went to town. How dare that restaurant take "his" money!

 

The fact that every single industry that brokers labor for clients marks that labor up is apparently lost on those who work for the restaurant industry.

Edited December 3, 2007 by detlef

[TimC]

It's the old supply and demand I guess....if you don't like it, go somewhere else. Or spit in the customer's food.

 

It must be funny to take a quarter from someone making $3.00 and hour. I hope I never have to experience that.

[detlef]

It's the old supply and demand I guess....if you don't like it, go somewhere else. Or spit in the customer's food.

 

It must be funny to take a quarter from someone making $15-$25 and hour. I hope I never have to experience that.

fixed

[Caveman_Nick]

3) I usually only get $3-10 in credit card tips per night. The 2% would be a nickel or a quarter. But if my management decided to dock me for it, I would be royally pissed. It's not my choice to accept credit cards, it's the choice of management. I shouldn't have to pay the fee.

 

 

That is just a plain old one sided and short sided POV. If the Pizza place didn't accept CC's, they'd probably be out of business.

[keggerz]

Even the tax? I don't do that. Should I be?

I tip based on the tax but i think that you are correct

 

You mean it was subtotaled? That could be to make it easier for people to expense it. I know that some of our customers don't get reimbursed for booze when they dine out for business. It didn't seem like you were trying to be cheap. It looked like your associate was trying to be cheap.

 

As far as the tax thing is concerned. It's always made sense to me as well but FWIW, waiters do not perceive it as such. I know, big surprise. The only reason I mention this is that if there is a calculated advantage one expects to gain by being known as a good tipper, this will undermine that strategy. Every server I've ever worked with looks at how they did relative to the total after tax. If you could care less what they think (which is an enormously valid stance unless you care so little that you leave crappy tips regardless of the pre or post tax amount), then carry on.

question for detlef....there are restaurants that add in gratuity for larger parties...is the gratuity figured before or after tax?

 

fwiw I didnt read all the responses

[Caveman_Nick]

I wonder if the people that are crabbing about the wait staff having to eat their own 2% understand how difficult it is to run a successful restaurant and actually make money at it. There's a reason why restaurants are the business that is most likely to not stay in business. They are difficult to run successfully.

 

If a restaurant were to pay a server's 2% on their tips, it would probably just raise prices to account for it anyways. So the tips would be larger, the restaurant would maybe make the same money, but the consumer would be footing the bill in the end. Higher prices means the risk of less business and less tips for the servers. There is no reason that the restaurant should eat this money. Again, it the restaurant didn't take CCs they would be out of business.

 

It's all just an economic cycle. Either the restaurant supplies you a good work environment in which you can make some scratch or it doesn't. If it does, then you should pay your CC fees on your tips and move past it. You can always find another place to wait tables if you don't prefer working there for that reason.

[detlef]

I tip based on the tax but i think that you are correct

question for detlef....there are restaurants that add in gratuity for larger parties...is the gratuity figured before or after tax?

 

fwiw I didnt read all the responses

I imagine most that use computers will do it pre-tax. I think I would basically have to hack mine to get it figure it post-tax. Those who don't (almost none these days) and are calculated by hand will likely do it post tax.

[chester]

People tend to fixate on the "petty" nature of things but every business has "petty" expenses and they all add up. You owe it to merchants that you patronize not to assume you understand the entire picture of their place before you boycott them. Once again, from your statements, it seems like my place would be blacklisted because of this policy. Funny, however, that you would do this in support of a waitstaff that, to a person, would tell you they don't feel at all screwed by me.

 

If my boss did this to me, I wouldn't quit, as I make decent money.

I would also tell him that I didn't feel screwed becasue it is his money.

 

Behind his back I would be calling him a cheap ba$tard.

[KevinL]

That is just a plain old one sided and short sided POV. If the Pizza place didn't accept CC's, they'd probably be out of business.

 

Nah, for delivery, we get probably less than 10% of our customers paying by credit card.

 

We don't take checks, and nobody tries to pay by check. We don't take Discover, and nobody tries to pay by Discover.

[chester]

That is just a plain old one sided and short sided POV. If the Pizza place didn't accept CC's, they'd probably be out of business.

 

I didn't even know that you could pay for delivery with a CC.

 

(I suppose, thinking about it for a minute, you obviously can, but I've never even thought of asking)

[chester]

IIf a restaurant were to pay a server's 2% on their tips, it would probably just raise prices to account for it anyways.

 

That's fine, at least I wouldn't be leaving a smaller tip than I thought I was.

 

And no, it's obviously not about the few cents difference, it's the principle.

If a server dropped a plate, the owner wouldn't think about taking it out of their check. It's a cost of doing business.

[Caveman_Nick]

That's fine, at least I wouldn't be leaving a smaller tip than I thought I was.

 

And no, it's obviously not about the few cents difference, it's the principle.

If a server dropped a plate, the owner wouldn't think about taking it out of their check. It's a cost of doing business.

 

 

That's funny, because from Detlef's post earlier I thought he made it pretty clear that he eats his server's screw-ups.

 

Things are run differently from restaurant to restaurant. I don't think that definitive statements can be made on how things are run. In the end, a successful restaurant will have successful servers. If those servers need to pay the 2% fee, they still would probably rather do that than to go to a less successful venue. JMO from observations being in and around the food business for a long time.

[chester]

That's funny, because from Detlef's post earlier I thought he made it pretty clear that he eats his server's screw-ups.

 

That's what I'm saying, he considers it a normal cost of doing business.

[detlef]

If my boss did this to me, I wouldn't quit, as I make decent money.

I would also tell him that I didn't feel screwed becasue it is his money.

 

Behind his back I would be calling him a cheap ba$tard.

UNC must have a great acting school because mine are doing a great job of faking it.

 

Also, if you have a problem with this, that's fine.

 

Though I'd suggest you avoid being so dogmatic about what does and doesn't make a good job. Every option has it's costs. If you fail to look at the whole picture and simply resent the costs of your decisions, you are destined to be unhappy an unappreciative.

 

Would my waiters rather that I eat this cost? I can't imagine one who prefers that I don't. Then again, I bet they'd prefer that I pay the runners enough so they don't need to tip them out as well. That, BTW, is a common example made of restaurant owners being greedy. How dare I make them share the tip with the people who do nothing more than help them do the job that the customer is tipping for. Of course, I could do that too. However, as Nick mentions, that would result in me having to raise my prices. Perhaps to the extent that I price myself too high and lose customers. Now I lose and they lose.

 

However, you need to quit fixating on the fact that I'm keeping this money, because I'm not.

[Caveman_Nick]

That's what I'm saying, he considers it a normal cost of doing business.

 

So then what is "the principle" of the thing where he should be paying their CC fees.

 

Just curious, have you ever run a business, or more specifically a restaurant? I am wondering what your perspective is on this, ie. what background helped to shape your POV here.

[Skippy]

Det - just wondering but what percentage of people pay with CC vs cash these days? I almost never pay with cash and in fact other than a few dollars I almost never even have cash on me. Not that it matters, I am just wondering.

[chester]

Just curious, have you ever run a business, or more specifically a restaurant? I am wondering what your perspective is on this, ie. what background helped to shape your POV here.

 

I managed a liquor store for 9 years and have been a managing bartender for 12 years. (well, managing for about 7)

 

edit for Yukonese.

Edited December 3, 2007 by chester

[KevinL]

However, you need to quit fixating on the fact that I'm keeping this money, because I'm not.

 

To the customer, you are. I have a $50 dinner check, I intend to give a $10 (or whatever) tip to the waiter. I write $10 on the line. And the waiter only gets $9.80.

 

Now my Visa gets charged $60. You (the restaurant) only gets $58.80. In my mind, the restaurant paid $1.20 for the credit card fee. I'm not thinking that the waiter paid 20 cents of it.

[chester]

However, you need to quit fixating on the fact that I'm keeping this money, because I'm not.

 

I completely understand that.

[TimC]

Are Debit cards the same fee? I pay almost always with my debit cards. If I have the cash, I try to tip with cash though. I guess that is the best solution.

[detlef]

That's funny, because from Detlef's post earlier I thought he made it pretty clear that he eats his server's screw-ups.

 

Things are run differently from restaurant to restaurant. I don't think that definitive statements can be made on how things are run. In the end, a successful restaurant will have successful servers. If those servers need to pay the 2% fee, they still would probably rather do that than to go to a less successful venue. JMO from observations being in and around the food business for a long time.

That's the rub. Everything needs to be taken into perspective. Being a waiter is basically a sales job. Believe me, I've done other types of sales and it's more similar than it isn't. Both cases your compensation is dependent on volume. Both cases you have to kiss ass. Both cases you have to little things for the customer besides just make the sale...

 

I was in wine sales. Different distributors had different policies on gas allowance, sample allowance, base salaries, and, of course commission. Anyone who wanted to complain about something could do so because you were either getting less gas money, paying for your samples, getting a lower commission, or having to drive a huge territory because you worked for a small company that didn't have as many big, lucrative accounts. However, at the end of the day, it all worked out. Country Vintner makes their reps pay for samples but pays them a higher commission. The little guys chase you all over the area but give you a base salary plus commission. Is anyone getting screwed here more than the next?

 

The only difference here is that you have some sort of emotional attachment to your server and you're pissed that your server isn't getting less of the tip than you thought. Well, we have some pretty regular customers who really like us. I bet they'd be pretty pissed if they knew how little of the money they pay me, actually ends up in my pocket. Starting with the 2% I pay for my cut, continuing to litany of unseen costs that go into that plate of food.

[detlef]

Det - just wondering but what percentage of people pay with CC vs cash these days? I almost never pay with cash and in fact other than a few dollars I almost never even have cash on me. Not that it matters, I am just wondering.

We see about 80-90% cc sales.

[Caveman_Nick]

To the customer, you are. I have a $50 dinner check, I intend to give a $10 (or whatever) tip to the waiter. I write $10 on the line. And the waiter only gets $9.80.

 

Now my Visa gets charged $60. You (the restaurant) only gets $58.80. In my mind, the restaurant paid $1.20 for the credit card fee. I'm not thinking that the waiter paid 20 cents of it.

 

 

 

I always figured that it came off the server's tip. it's one of the reasons I always round up.

[keggerz]

This is where it might matter. More and more, restaurants are passing on the 2% (or so) CC fee on charged tips to the waiters. After all, this is money the restaurant will never see, so it's not fair that they should have to pay the fee for collecting that money. We do so and it obviously does not amount to much to each waiter. For instance, even on a really good night, even if all their sales are credit card sales, they're going to have to fork over $5 of $250 they made.

 

When my customers are ready to pay i ask, Cash or Credit...if they say Credit I tell them there will be an additional 2% convenience charge and a 25 cent transaction fee....that sounds pretty F'n stupid right? Well it should because its about as stupid as charging it to your employees.

 

it is a CODB(COST OF DOING BUSINESS)...do you charge your staff for their training time? and this is another way to look at it...who has the Merchant Services Account? The restaurant or the servers? Thats what I thought....Nick is right its just a cost that gets passed to the consumer but hey that is fine....imo employees are the most important asset for all business. Invest in your employees and you will win every single time. 2% sure isnt much of an investment either.

 

 

This includes being legally powerless to auto-grat a check if the customer inadvertently takes the copy of the CC receipt that has the tip on it. In that case, the waiter is out of luck.

 

ok so help me out with this....is this because the bill is run at its total prior to knowing the tip and the customer then takes the slip that had the tip on it so you have no clue what the tip was? or is it just that the customer took the wrong slip? if its a wrong slip thing and the customer tipped $20 who gets that money, the restaurant?

 

I'll tell you why at least I do. To begin with, I eat any mistakes they make. If something gets misfired and I'm not lucky enough to have another home for that dish, it goes to the back to get snacked upon by the same people who screwed up at my cost. Secondly, I feed those guys every shift. Not many other jobs feed their employees during their paid break.

CODB, no?....also fwiw allowing them to snack on it is your prerogative and probably one that could actually be taken advantage of..."hey i am hungry so let me put in a wrong order and we will have snacks" that would be something that could happen....feeding them on their breaks is INVESTING in your employees IMO....you decided to do it and it shouldnt have anything to do with why you charge them the 2% CC fee.

 

At least once a week, we have people doing high end tasting menus. Either the wines are already chosen, or myself or the manager consults them on what they should drink. The waiter, in that case is nothing more than a food runner and usually makes about $100 on that table alone. In most cases, the tasting menus are done at the kitchen bar so my chef du cuisine and I actually hand them the food as well, so they're really just a busser.

 

I think that makes up for the $10-$25 per week I don't pay on their behalf to the credit card company.

 

if anything you might have a leg to stand on to tell them that on these tasting menus that since they are only bussing that they get a % of the tip and the rest will be split among the rest of the servers or go to the chef du cuisine or whatever else you can come up with....but IMO, you can use this as a way to motivate your staff....you want a tasting menu then it goes to whoever does X(however you want to challenge them)...

or you could just let a busser bus the table if that really is all that they are doing

 

Ask any of my waiters if they feel "nickel and dimed". When I lose a waiter, it's because they moved away. If they move back to the area, the first thing they do is ask me if I've got any shifts they can pick up.

 

to me it all comes down to COST OF DOING BUSINESS

just because you dont think they feel nickel and dimed doesnt mean that dont feel that way....and just because they want to pickup shifts if they moved and came back would have to do with their earning potential and not that you possibly nickel and dime them