Tipping question

[keggerz]

But, if it's working so be it...

By the way, there are several liquor stores here that charge 2% less for their products if you pay cash so that can work in some instances.

one of the magazines i advertise in gives a discount for paying early and they charge a fee(2.25% i think) if you want to pay with a CC.

[detlef]

lets just agree to disagree on who should shoulder the 2% CC cost(and that isnt a hard cost for you is it? what do you charge a waiter if the customer uses AMEX? )

 

imo, it is a Cost of Doing Business...but you as well as others are entitled to your very own opinion

We actually have a great CC deal and all cards are the same.

 

Can we also agree to disagree on whether or not somebody who's never stepped foot in someone else's business or bothered to ask his employees how they feel treated should condemn a guy for how he conducts his business with respect to them?

Edited December 3, 2007 by detlef

[BeeR]

Actually, there's very little about tipping that hasn't been addressed in this thread.

My bad - haven't read thru it -

[TimC]

Det...there's nothing wrong with being a cheap bass turd. Just admit it and move on. [irish] [/irish]

[KevinL]

Let's say another pizza place than the one you worked at figured out a way to provide you with a pleasant work environment where you'd make more money. Perhaps they did this by paying a concession to have exclusive rights to a certain group of people who loved pizza. So, you can get a job there but when they hire you they say, "we realize that our concession fee has a very positive impact on both yours and our income and thus we feel it is fair that we pass on a very small percentage of that fee to you." Of course, you're not going to have to drive all over hell and back and you're going to make much more money than you make now.

 

If you did the math and realized that you would be making more and having a nice experience doing it, would you not agree to this? Would you resent your employer for requiring you to, in a very transparent and upfront manner, shoulder this fee? Despite the fact that they were offering you this fine opportunity?

 

I would think you'd be foolish to turn down the opportunity and a total ingrate to resent them for the deal that you willingly entered.

 

We're mixing metaphors here. I thought I was the customer, now I'm the waiter. As the customer, I want that $ in my waiter's hands. What he does with it after he gets it (tips out others, pays cc fees) is his business. But him not getting it all just feels wrong to me. You're interfering with a transaction that should be directly from the customer to the waiter.

 

And I've been at my pizza place for 4 years. There are things that make me stay there besides money. I have some seniority/respect so I get the shifts I like. I have become good friends with several co-workers. I'm fed well, as is my family at times. But I almost left 2 weeks ago due to a change in the dress code.

 

Certainly money is very important. And the bottom line is important. In that sense, it's kind of like a no-load mutual fund.

 

But feeling respected is important too. And if my employer started to charge me, I'd be upset. Make your money from your customers, not your employees.

[Caveman_Nick]

We're mixing metaphors here. I thought I was the customer, now I'm the waiter. As the customer, I want that $ in my waiter's hands. What he does with it after he gets it (tips out others, pays cc fees) is his business. But him not getting it all just feels wrong to me. You're interfering with a transaction that should be directly from the customer to the waiter.

 

 

 

This POV is really puzzling to me. Indeed, it is both the customer choosing to pay the tip with their CC and the credit card company creating the circumstance. The owner of the restaurant is doing nothing other than providing a venue for the transaction, and you want him to pay a penalty for your choice and the CC company's policy. Generally speaking a restaurant owner has no choice but to accept CCs.

 

My advice to the people that are so up in arms about this is to tip in cash. The only entity that doesn't make out is the CC company.

[KevinL]

 

This POV is really puzzling to me. Indeed, it is both the customer choosing to pay the tip with their CC and the credit card company creating the circumstance. The owner of the restaurant is doing nothing other than providing a venue for the transaction, and you want him to pay a penalty for your choice and the CC company's policy. Generally speaking a restaurant owner has no choice but to accept CCs.

 

My advice to the people that are so up in arms about this is to tip in cash. The only entity that doesn't make out is the CC company.

 

We sometimes have people who order by phone and pay with credit card put the tip on while they are still ordering. They say something like "Put $3 on there for the driver."

 

Would you have the phone person say "How about $2.94 for the driver and $0.06 for the credit card processing company?" Otherwise, you're not following the customer's spoken wishes.

 

They didn't say, "Add a $3 tip. Take out whatever the cost of accepting the tip is, and give the rest to the driver."

[detlef]

We're mixing metaphors here. I thought I was the customer, now I'm the waiter. As the customer, I want that $ in my waiter's hands. What he does with it after he gets it (tips out others, pays cc fees) is his business. But him not getting it all just feels wrong to me. You're interfering with a transaction that should be directly from the customer to the waiter.

 

And I've been at my pizza place for 4 years. There are things that make me stay there besides money. I have some seniority/respect so I get the shifts I like. I have become good friends with several co-workers. I'm fed well, as is my family at times. But I almost left 2 weeks ago due to a change in the dress code.

 

Certainly money is very important. And the bottom line is important. In that sense, it's kind of like a no-load mutual fund.

 

But feeling respected is important too. And if my employer started to charge me, I'd be upset. Make your money from your customers, not your employees.

Well, since you are speaking from the standpoint of a consumer who is upset because he feels the restaurant is mistreating the server, I don't think the change of perspective is off at all. My point is that you are making judgment without knowing all the elements of the business model. There's more than one way to do things and plenty of them work. Would you be angry if you learned that your pizza guy had to pay the concession fee I spoke of before? Even if he was perfectly happy to do so?

 

I mean, you need to believe me on this. You are lobbying for a group of people who are entirely content with their situation. I'm sure there's someone who needs your support, but this is not the group.

 

You'll likely to be upset then that what he does with the money is not, actually, his business. That's because most places have a specific minimum that he is required to pay out to the support staff. Why? Because left to their own devices, they might screw the other staff. I've been at places like this and it doesn't manifest itself well. The busser knows who the crappy tippers are and they do as little for them as they can. Thus, the service suffers which ultimately reflect on the restaurant. Thus, they should, in no way, be the one who decides who gets tipped out. If they feel the support service is bad, then they need to go to the management. However, this is not a situation where they should just police themselves through tip-outs and let it work itself out.

 

There are places with as many as 4-5 tiers of service (most have 2-3). I mentioned this earlier but perhaps you missed it. I'm assuming the customer is tipping on all the elements of service that went into their meal. The manner in which their waiter guided them to good choices and accommodated their needs (often BTW, that last part gets pawned off on a non-tipped manager), the manner in which they got what they ordered, as well as the manner in which it was all taken away. I doubt anyone would agree that simply doing the first part of this is worth the 18-20% people pay. I bring this up again, because I've actually heard people complain about this dynamic in the industry and suggest that this is somehow making the waiters subsidize the owners choice to pay bussers and runners less money. As if they actually feel that 18-20% should be all theirs. It is arguments like this that sort numb me to the plight of the waiter and make me happy to know that nobody I employ is so overly entitled.

 

So, it might be a manner of semantics, but, no. That money is not and should not be for the waiter to tip out as he chooses.

 

I'm not going to, again, address the manner in which I treat my employees, but I'm not simply relying on the fact that they make good money to keep them.

 

Lastly, one more time for those in the back. I don't freaking make money off this transaction!

[DemonKnight]

Servers pay practically the entire front of house payroll in most restaraunts I've worked in. Hostess, Busboy, Take Away and Bar staff are all paid in part by server tips. At Outback the tip out is 3% of your total sales. Thats regardless of how well the customer tips. Thats 20% of teh tips that I earned goiong to keep costs down for the restaraunt. If we had a food runner we would normally tip out another $5 to them as well. Its kinda outrageous to make the server to pay for the cc transaction fee as well. JMO. I quit one restaraunt when they tried to make me pay for as mis-ring. It would be one thing if they charged me the food cost for a mis-ring but this dlck tried to charge me the full cost of the plate.

[Caveman_Nick]

We sometimes have people who order by phone and pay with credit card put the tip on while they are still ordering. They say something like "Put $3 on there for the driver."

 

Would you have the phone person say "How about $2.94 for the driver and $0.06 for the credit card processing company?" Otherwise, you're not following the customer's spoken wishes.

 

They didn't say, "Add a $3 tip. Take out whatever the cost of accepting the tip is, and give the rest to the driver."

 

 

Tell me who doesn't know that when they pay for something with a CC that the CC company gets a cut?

 

Seriously...do people somehow not know this? Because unless there is massive ignorance on the part of consumers in this regard, your statement really makes no sense. Why would you think, if the CC companies charge a percentage of whatever you spend, that this would not apply to the tip?

[detlef]

Servers pay practically the entire front of house payroll in most restaraunts I've worked in. Hostess, Busboy, Take Away and Bar staff are all paid in part by server tips. At Outback the tip out is 3% of your total sales. Thats regardless of how well the customer tips. Thats 20% of teh tips that I earned goiong to keep costs down for the restaraunt. If we had a food runner we would normally tip out another $5 to them as well. Its kinda outrageous to make the server to pay for the cc transaction fee as well. JMO. I quit one restaraunt when they tried to make me pay for as mis-ring. It would be one thing if they charged me the food cost for a mis-ring but this dlck tried to charge me the full cost of the plate.

This is what I'm talking about. You, singularly, did not earn those tips. Sure, they could do away with the busboy but that would mean you could only manage a smaller section because you'd be filling all the waters, running all the food, clearing all the tables, and doing all the resets. The restaurant, however, has decided that everything would work better if they broke up the work. I'd say it's six of one, half dozen of the other, but that's actually not the case. You're better off getting more customers and having to tip someone out than you are fending for yourself with less customers.

 

I mean, if we want to talk about greedy. What about the mentality that drive that statement above. Your concerned about a guy who feels like he's giving his own money away to people who participated directly in what he's being paid for? That's the guy you're taking up for? I'm sorry for the gloves coming off but really. I mean, why should I have to pay all the dishwashers and cooks? It's my money, isn't it? That customer didn't go to Joe's house of wash your plate. He went to detelf's house of food.

 

Now, I think it's bush that you had to tip take away staff. I would imagine there were a number of things about Outback that were not that cool. I base this on the fact that we had a sever try out that wasn't up to snuff. We really liked her but she didn't get it. I told her that we could make her a runner but that was it. She was hell bent on being a waiter, so she left. It turns out, to Outback. About 5 months later she came back and begged me for another crack. That she thought she could do it now and would even run if she had to, just to get away from that place. We phased her back in and she's been with us since.

 

We could go back and forth. You showing me examples of restaurants screwing waiters, me showing you ways that waiters have ripped places off blind. Neither really matters to the issue at hand. You and KevinL seem to suggest that, had your job dropped that costs on top of other things about your job you didn't like, you'd have been pissed and left. Well, since that's not the case at my place...

Edited December 3, 2007 by detlef

[keggerz]

We actually have a great CC deal and all cards are the same.

 

Can we also agree to disagree on whether or not somebody who's never stepped foot in someone else's business or bothered to ask his employees how they feel treated should condemn a guy for how he conducts his business with respect to them?

not condemning you at all......just debating a business passing off CC fees on its employees is all....but on another note are you saying that when i am in town you want me to sit down with your employees and ask them what they think of you

[KevinL]

 

Tell me who doesn't know that when they pay for something with a CC that the CC company gets a cut?

 

Seriously...do people somehow not know this? Because unless there is massive ignorance on the part of consumers in this regard, your statement really makes no sense. Why would you think, if the CC companies charge a percentage of whatever you spend, that this would not apply to the tip?

 

I understand that credit card companies charge a fee, a percentage of the transaction. I expect that fee to be paid by the business, not by the employee. That's all.

[detlef]

not condemning you at all......just debating a business passing off CC fees on its employees is all....but on another note are you saying that when i am in town you want me to sit down with your employees and ask them what they think of you

Feel free to do so. I would be hugely surprised if they said they didn't like working for me.

[keggerz]

Det...there's nothing wrong with being a cheap bass turd. Just admit it and move on. [irish] [/irish]

[DemonKnight]

This is what I'm talking about. You, singularly, did not earn those tips. Sure, they could do away with the busboy but that would mean you could only manage a smaller section because you'd be filling all the waters, running all the food, clearing all the tables, and doing all the resets. The restaurant, however, has decided that everything would work better if they broke up the work. I'd say it's six of one, half dozen of the other, but that's actually not the case. You're better off getting more customers and having to tip someone out than you are fending for yourself with less customers.

 

In every restaraunt (from Olive Garden to small estasblishments such as yours) I have had running sidework. That includes pre-bussing, stocking and running food. The good ole days of busboys refilling drinks are long gone my friend. The only things they really ever did was clean and reset tables after the customers had left. The bartenders I didnt mind tipping out but it should have been a % of my liquor sales and not overall sales. Some nights I would have to tip them out 20$ for making one Margarita. The hostesses... I was usually bangin one so I cant complain there.

 

Now, I think it's bush that you had to tip take away staff. I would imagine there were a number of things about Outback that were not that cool. I base this on the fact that we had a sever try out that wasn't up to snuff. We really liked her but she didn't get it. I told her that we could make her a runner but that was it. She was hell bent on being a waiter, so she left. It turns out, to Outback. About 5 months later she came back and begged me for another crack. That she thought she could do it now and would even run if she had to, just to get away from that place. We phased her back in and she's been with us since.

 

Outback is the best restaraunt I worked in. The hours are great (no lunch), they offer the only viable benefits plan in the industry and people love that place (they are all busy). I think it really has a lot to do with the proprietor though. I worked at two different restaraunts and the policies were like night and day. If people would tip the Take Away girls like they should we wouldnt have had to suplement thier earnings but thats a different discussion.

 

We could go back and forth. You showing me examples of restaurants screwing waiters, me showing you ways that waiters have ripped places off blind. Neither really matters to the issue at hand. You and KevinL seem to suggest that, had your job dropped that costs on top of other things about your job you didn't like, you'd have been pissed and left. Well, since that's not the case at my place...

 

It really boils down to: Can I expect to make 80-100$ even on a slow night? If so thats all that matters (as long as sidework isnt outa control and the managers arent dlcks).

[detlef]

We're mixing metaphors here. I thought I was the customer, now I'm the waiter. As the customer, I want that $ in my waiter's hands. What he does with it after he gets it (tips out others, pays cc fees) is his business. But him not getting it all just feels wrong to me. You're interfering with a transaction that should be directly from the customer to the waiter.

 

And I've been at my pizza place for 4 years. There are things that make me stay there besides money. I have some seniority/respect so I get the shifts I like. I have become good friends with several co-workers. I'm fed well, as is my family at times. But I almost left 2 weeks ago due to a change in the dress code.

 

Certainly money is very important. And the bottom line is important. In that sense, it's kind of like a no-load mutual fund.

 

But feeling respected is important too. And if my employer started to charge me, I'd be upset. Make your money from your customers, not your employees.

Why do you equate feeling respected with not being charged a fee? So, it appears that you guys have given me the benefit of the doubt here that my waiters make enough to tolerate this policy. Of course, since this policy is exactly about money, I can't see why it wouldn't end there.

 

But Kevin mentions respect. See, I suppose, to me, showing someone respect means how interact with them. Do you speak to them like an adult? Are you up front with them? As an employer do you not look over their shoulder and nitpick every thing they do or do you let the pissant stuff go and just worry about the big things. Do you allow them to express themselves somewhat or do you force them into demeaning uniforms. I suppose I show this kind of respect. Kevin's it appears is for sale.

Edited December 3, 2007 by detlef

[KevinL]

Why do you equate feeling respected with not being charged a fee? So, it appears that you guys have given me the benefit of the doubt here that my waiters make enough to tolerate this policy. Of course, since this policy is exactly about money, I can't see why it wouldn't end there.

 

But Kevin mentions respect. See, I suppose, to me, showing someone respect means how interact with them. Do you speak to them like an adult? Are you up front with them? As an employer do you not look over their shoulder and nitpick every thing they do or do you let the pissant stuff go and just worry about the big things. Do you allow them to express themselves somewhat or do you force them into demeaning uniforms. I suppose I show this kind of respect. Kevin's it appears is for sale.

 

At the end of the night when I do my driver check-out, I owe some money. If I owe $314.64 (just a wild guess), I probably have dropped $300 during the course of the night. I'll give the manager another $14 and 2 quarters, I'll sign the slip, and we'll be good. Likewise if I owe $13.82, I'll probably give him the $14 and not wait around for my 18 cents change.

 

If he made me go out to my car and dig through my change for another 14 cents, I'd feel disrespected, when I know their drawer count will vary +/- a buck or so each night.

 

This is how I would also feel if my employer was charging me 2% of my credit card tips.

 

If your guys are fine with it, good for you and good for them. I, as I said before, would be ticked off just on the principle of it.

[Savage Beatings]

Security

at Detlef's restaurant.

 

[detlef]

At the end of the night when I do my driver check-out, I owe some money. If I owe $314.64 (just a wild guess), I probably have dropped $300 during the course of the night. I'll give the manager another $14 and 2 quarters, I'll sign the slip, and we'll be good. Likewise if I owe $13.82, I'll probably give him the $14 and not wait around for my 18 cents change.

 

If he made me go out to my car and dig through my change for another 14 cents, I'd feel disrespected, when I know their drawer count will vary +/- a buck or so each night.

 

This is how I would also feel if my employer was charging me 2% of my credit card tips.

 

If your guys are fine with it, good for you and good for them. I, as I said before, would be ticked off just on the principle of it.

You realize that these two things are only related to the extent that they both deal with money. That's exactly how we deal with settling out. We round off that's because it's petty to do otherwise considering the fact that neither party is any more likely to owe the other money. That is obviously not the case with the cc fee.

[KevinL]

You realize that these two things are only related to the extent that they both deal with money. That's exactly how we deal with settling out. We round off that's because it's petty to do otherwise considering the fact that neither party is any more likely to owe the other money. That is obviously not the case with the cc fee.

 

That's not how I see it. I see it as the business owner coming recouping some of his costs of doing business from his employees. To me, that's just as petty.

[TimC]

Security

at Detlef's restaurant.

 

 

:lmao: You took two dumps today and flushed 3 times...that's coming out of your check!! You know how much water costs?

[Caveman_Nick]

That's not how I see it. I see it as the business owner coming recouping some of his costs of doing business from his employees. To me, that's just as petty.

 

 

You keep insisting on this. Why is any part of your tip associated with his cost of anything? It's your tip. Why should he supplement it?

[detlef]

That's not how I see it. I see it as the business owner coming recouping some of his costs of doing business from his employees. To me, that's just as petty.

I suppose I could just pay everyone else less to pick up the cost of subsidizing the income of my highest hourly waged employees. Would that make you happy? That would certainly seem less obviously stingy right? That's all that truly matters, right?

 

I could also just not operate at a profit. Does your pizza car have a "profit=theft" bumper sticker?

 

I mean, I start my dishwashers at well above minimum wage because I think it's absurd to expect someone to live on less than $6 an hour. So, I could knock that down .50 and still be well above minimum. That would be one way to carve a little percentage out. However, I guess I see it a little lame to knock a guy down from $8.00 to $7.50 so I can make sure my waitstaff walks with $20 and hour rather than $19.75

Edited December 3, 2007 by detlef

[KevinL]

You keep insisting on this. Why is any part of your tip associated with his cost of anything? It's your tip. Why should he supplement it?

 

My restaurant accepts reservations, so I have to have a phone line. My phone line costs $100 per month, and I accept 400 reservations per month. From now on I'm going to assign each reservation a cost of 25 cents to cover my phone bill. Since the average tip is 20% at my restaurant, I'm going to allocate this 20% of this 25 cents (or 5 cents) to the waiter, and charge him 5 cents for each table that he has that made a reservation, to cover his share of my phone bill.

 

Sound ridiculous?

 

Just because a cost can be itemized and matched up with an employee, doesn't mean that cost should be passed on to that employee.

Edited December 3, 2007 by KevinL