Time to replace T. Jones

[aterry1979]

Guys, as much as I hate to do this as I supported T. Jones the whole season, I think its time for us T. Jones owners to find a replacement. Im not saying its his fault that hes doing crap, but its almost playoff time and we need someone to give us that extra "umph" at the end.

[Ursa Majoris]

Guys,  as much as I hate to do this as I supported T. Jones the whole season, I think its time for us T. Jones owners to find a replacement.  Im not saying its his fault that hes doing crap, but its almost playoff time and we need someone to give us that extra "umph" at the end. 

 

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Playoffs will be an irrelevance to me.

[Skrappy1]

He actually looked pretty good today, the QB situation is what is killing him. This was the first time I've actually seen Quinn play, and I certainly hope it's the last...he's quite possibly the worst QB I have ever seen in my entire life.

[Ursa Majoris]

He actually looked pretty good today, the QB situation is what is killing him.  This was the first time I've actually seen Quinn play, and I certainly hope it's the last...he's quite possibly the worst QB I have ever seen in my entire life.

 

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Did you miss Krenzel in the first half, then? He's just as bad.

[Skrappy1]

Did you miss Krenzel in the first half, then?  He's just as bad.

 

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I did see Krenzel play. He was absolutely awful....trash. But he still looked WAY better than Quinn in my opinion.

 

I saw Quinn throw several passes to wide open targets and routinely place the ball about 10 feet over the receivers' heads. Even a couple of short dump offs he wasn't even close. There are not words to explain how bad Quinn looked...I'm sure there are but I am at a loss for them.

Edited November 26, 2004 by Skrappy1

[Neon Owl]

I don't think Thomas Jones is bad, I just don't think he's special. The Beloved already had a competent to good RB in A-Train. If they were going to replace him and give the replacement a lot of money, it should have been for a significant upgrade. I just don't think Jones is a huge improvement over Thomas.

[Ursa Majoris]

I did see Krenzel play.  He was absolutely awful....trash.  But he still looked WAY better than Quinn in my opinion.

 

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I don't see how you can pick between them. It's like selecting dog $hit over cat $hit, or vice versa.

[Skrappy1]

I don't see how you can pick between them.  It's like selecting dog $hit over cat $hit, or vice versa.

 

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This is a valid point entirely. Believe me, I'm not saying anything good about Krenzel at all. Quinn was just unreal.

[ts]

He actually looked pretty good today, the QB situation is what is killing him.  This was the first time I've actually seen Quinn play, and I certainly hope it's the last...he's quite possibly the worst QB I have ever seen in my entire life.

 

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Ditto that ...

[Skrappy1]

I don't think Thomas Jones is bad, I just don't think he's special. The Beloved already had a competent to good RB in A-Train. If they were going to replace him and give the replacement a lot of money, it should have been for a significant upgrade. I just don't think Jones is a huge improvement over Thomas.

 

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A-Train is more of a power, inside runner. Lovie's offense fits guys who are fast, oustide runners like Jones. Also Jones is an excellent receiver which better fits the offense. I really do think Jones can play...he was great last year in Tampa once they gave him an opportunity, and he was great the first few games of this season before Grossman got hurt. Even with absolutely no QB play to speak of, he still hasn't been completely awful, he just hasn't been quite as good and has gotten less opportunities to make plays.

[Ursa Majoris]

I don't think Thomas Jones is bad, I just don't think he's special. The Beloved already had a competent to good RB in A-Train. If they were going to replace him and give the replacement a lot of money, it should have been for a significant upgrade. I just don't think Jones is a huge improvement over Thomas.

 

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Exactly. Any spare money should have gone to getting a halfway decent receiver and a QB to back up Grossman.

[Skrappy1]

Exactly.  Any spare money should have gone to getting a halfway decent receiver and a QB to back up Grossman.

 

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I'm not in any way a Chicago fan, but I think you guys are being a bit unfair and short-sighted. Give Lovie a little time to develop and put together the team he wants. Jones is a much better fit in that offense and has much more homerun potential than Thomas. He does need receivers and sure they obviously need a backup QB but the majority of teams in the NFL would be in big trouble if they lost their starting QB. Many teams don't even have 1 competent QB, barely any have 2 so you can't really fault him there in my opinion.

[Ursa Majoris]

I'm not in any way a Chicago fan, but I think you guys are being a bit unfair and short-sighted.  Give Lovie a little time to develop and put together the team he wants.  Jones is a much better fit in that offense and has much more homerun potential than Thomas.  He does need receivers and sure they obviously need a backup QB but the majority of teams in the NFL would be in big trouble if they lost their starting QB.  Many teams don't even have 1 competent QB, barely any have 2 so you can't really fault him there in my opinion.

 

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You are probably right, but I am so upset with what I just witnessed I can barely think straight. If you'd had to suffer this offensive (in both sense of the word) incompetence for the last 15 years, all the time getting worse, you wouldn't exactly be coherent either.

[Skrappy1]

You are probably right, but I am so upset with what I just witnessed I can barely think straight.  If you'd had to suffer this offensive (in both sense of the word) incompetence for the last 15 years, all the time getting worse, you wouldn't exactly be coherent either. 

 

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I understand completely, if I were a Bears fan I would be upset as well. Actually, even though I'm not a Bears fan I'm still upset...I can't believe I had to sit through that awful ass atrocious looking football game. It was pretty brutal, especially when Henson was in for Dallas.

[Neon Owl]

A-Train is more of a power, inside runner.  Lovie's offense fits guys who are fast, oustide runners like Jones.  Also Jones is an excellent receiver which better fits the offense.  I really do think Jones can play...he was great last year in Tampa once they gave him an opportunity, and he was great the first few games of this season before Grossman got hurt.  Even with absolutely no QB play to speak of, he still hasn't been completely awful, he just hasn't been quite as good and has gotten less opportunities to make plays.

 

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Great in Tampa Bay? That's lowering the threshold a bit. These are Jones stats for the last 4 games last year where he suddenly became an attractive Free Agent again.

 

Wk 14 Saints Rush 20 89 0 Rec 14 yds

Wk 15 Texans Rush 34 134 1 Rec 17 yds

Wk 16 Falcons Rush 17 73 0 Rec 14 yds

Wk 17 Titans Rush 13 68 0 Rec 32 yds

 

Those aren't bad numbers but they aren't exactly getting a bust ready for him in Canton.

 

I understand that A-Train might not be the ideal back for that system, but you know he wasn't bad there a couple of those games he filled in. I think you have to ask why this team felt the need to spend $10 million to do a minor upgrade to it's running game and spent about $3 bucks on the back-up QB position and nothing on the WR spot. How did this team expect to have a passing game with a bunch of guys that are at best 4th WRs on most teams?

Edited November 26, 2004 by Neon Owl

[pokerboss]

just wondering what all the players from the 4 teams the bears have beat felt like watching that today, only to realize they were bested by it. talk about yacking up your thanksgiving dinner in record time.......

[DMD]

I don't think that TJ is a bust by any means. I think he is on a terrible offense and doesn't have a chance in hell of doing that much against even an average team. Remember Clinton Portis? Look what has happened to him on a new team.

 

TJ only had 14 carries yesterday for 46 yards. If he had as many carries as his brother did he would have ended with about 110 yards.

 

In his seven starts this season, when he has over 22 touches, these are his touches-total yards-TDs

 

27-105-2

24-159-1

30-181-1

26-119-0

 

When he has less than 23 touches, here is what he has done:

 

22-82-0

19-72-0

16-65-1

20-94-0

 

The CHI offense has gotten ridiculously bad since Grossman left. TJ will never have the opportunity to run much because the Bears passing game is so laughable that literally no defender respects it. DAL has a terrible secondary and look what they just did.

 

TJ is not a bust, but he is on an offense that absolutely is and that prevents him from doing anything near his potential.

[Neon Owl]

I don't think most of us are suggesting Jones is a bust. But he's never demonstrated that he is a workhorse RB or indeed a mini-Priest Holmes as Terry Shea suggested; so maybe the Bears put too many eggs into one basket. They did have a competent RB, but they were (are) incredibly weak at WR, TE and the backup QB spot -- maybe just maybe the money could have been spent better somewhere else.

Edited November 26, 2004 by Neon Owl

[Jrick35]

I don't think that TJ is a bust by any means. I think he is on a terrible offense and doesn't have a chance in hell of doing that much against even an average team. Remember Clinton Portis? Look what has happened to him on a new team.

 

TJ only had 14 carries yesterday for 46 yards. If he had as many carries as his brother did he would have ended with about 110 yards.

 

In his seven starts this season, when he has over 22 touches, these are his touches-total yards-TDs

 

27-105-2

24-159-1

30-181-1

26-119-0

 

When he has less than 23 touches, here is what he has done:

 

22-82-0

19-72-0

16-65-1

20-94-0

 

The CHI offense has gotten ridiculously bad since Grossman left. TJ will never have the opportunity to run much because the Bears passing game is so laughable that literally no defender respects it. DAL has a terrible secondary and look what they just did.

 

TJ is not a bust, but he is on an offense that absolutely is and that prevents him from doing anything near his potential.

 

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Nicely put!

[Lonestar39]

Agreed with most of what was said here. I'm not a big TJ fan, but earlier in the year he was better than I thought and I actually had turned my opinion on him. TJ is not going to be a top 10 running back if that's what people are looking for but he could be hovering around that 15 spot which isn't bad for a FF team as a #2 or 3 RB. Personally, that would be very good for him considering what he has done over the previous years. If you could pick him up in a cover or dynasty league on the cheap you should make a play for him, but don't count on anything but #3 status for the rest of the year from him in that offense.

[Squeegiebo]

I don't see how you can pick between them.  It's like selecting dog $hit over cat $hit, or vice versa.

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First time I saw Da Bears this season. I never thought I'd say this, but I think they may actually have been better off with Kordell.

[Skrappy1]

Great in Tampa Bay? That's lowering the threshold a bit. These are Jones stats for the last 4 games last year where he suddenly became an attractive Free Agent again.

 

Wk 14  Saints   Rush    20    89   0   Rec 14 yds

Wk 15  Texans  Rush   34   134   1   Rec 17 yds

Wk 16  Falcons  Rush   17    73   0   Rec  14 yds

Wk 17  Titans    Rush   13    68   0   Rec  32 yds

 

Those aren't bad numbers but they aren't exactly getting a bust ready for him in Canton.

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No one said he was going to the Hall of Fame based on a four game sample. If you view those numbers objectively however they come out to 84 carries for 367 yards and a TD with 11 receptions for 77 yards in those 4 games you mention. If you multiply those numbers by 4 (to average out to a full 16 game season) they come out to:

 

1468 yards rushing (4.36 avg) w/ 4 TDs and 44 receptions for 308 yards.

 

I'm pretty sure that's very good. If you want to point to the low TD total, fair enough but remember that Tampa was predominately a throwing team. They threw most of their scores in so Jones didn't hit paydirt too much, similar to the way Edgerrin James isn't scoring much this season...I don't think it's because Edge isn't any good or incapable of scoring, it's just a product of the offense he is in. Also, Pittman was still getting a handful of carries a game, plus about 5 passes each game.

 

I understand that A-Train might not be the ideal back for that system, but you know he wasn't bad  there a couple of those games he filled in. I think you have to ask why this team felt the need to spend $10 million to do a minor upgrade to it's running game and spent about $3 bucks on the back-up QB position and nothing on the WR spot. How did this team expect to have a passing game with a bunch of guys that are at best 4th WRs on most teams?

Again, I think you have to give Lovie a couple of years to put together the team that he wants. Jones was the first piece. He was a free agent, fit the exact prototype that Lovie was looking for so he went out and got him.

 

Grossman may very well be the QB he wants, but he is hurt and also still young so we won't really know that for sure until next year. He clearly still needs WRs, but give him some time to draft and sign the guys that he wants, as well as evaluate the guys already there. Maybe he thought that he could work with Terrell and now feels otherwise...things don't always happen overnight. But you really can't blame him for getting an available piece that he wanted a year before some of the other parts...if he didn't sign Jones someone else would've and who knows if he would've found a guy he liked available next year.

 

I also think you have to ask yourself was there any talented free-agent quarterbacks that he could have signed cheaply as a backup? Not that I'm aware of, and Grossman was doing decently before he got injured...you can't predict injury.

 

A-train is a 3.5 yards and a cloud of dust guy...he doesn't suck, but he doesn't have the same skills as Jones and not the ones that Lovie wants for his system.

His system relies on speed and guys who can stretch the defense and make big plays. A-train doesn't really fit that bill.

 

The Bears weren't playing that badly before Grossman got hurt...they did beat Green Bay and hung in against the Lions and the Vikings. They were definitely playing much better than what we saw today with their current QB situation. In the three games with Grossman, Jones's numbers were:

 

Week 1 - 21 for 67 w/ 2 TDs + 6 catches for 38 yards

Week 2 - 23 for 152 w/ 1 TD + 1 catch for 7 yards

Week 3 - 22 for 110 w/ 1 TD + 8 catches for 71 yards

 

He had a 4.98 yards per carry average during that time...even now he is still over 4 ypc. If you project those numbers out for a 16 game season, they would come out to:

 

1753 yards rushing with 26 TDs and 80 catches for 618 yards

 

I'm not saying this guy is Priest, but those are Priest Holmes type of numbers. Of course its a stretch to project numbers out off a 3 game sample, but again, who knows what would have happened had Grossman not been injured. They clearly illustrate how Jones can peform in the system that Lovie envisioned, and remeber that this is only the first year.

 

Jones's numbers will likely be inconsistent and somewhat down the rest of the season due to him not getting as many carries and also there being no threat at all in the Bears' passing game. My only points are to give Chicago and Lovie some time, and definitely don't be so quick to dismiss Jones or ridicule the move to acquire him.

Edited November 26, 2004 by Skrappy1

[Neon Owl]

First of all projections are just that, projections. There is nothing in the Jones history to demonstrate he can maintain that pace.

 

I would also like to point out that A-Train's career yard per carry is not 3.5, but 4.0 (rounded it's like 3.978) which is adequate. Coming into this year Jones ypc is 3.8 (again rounded).

 

So up until this year Thomas has been statistically the superior RB. Jones was being paid a lot of money based on a 4 game, end of the year audition from last season. I know there is the argument that Jones is a better fit for the offense, but when Thomas filled in he looked like he could handle the job. Again I'm not saying Thomas was perfect, just that they wouldn't fall apart with him there.

 

All this being said it sure seems the Bears overpaid for Jones. What was special about him that he should get a $3.5 million signing bonus and a 4 year $10 million contract? While the Bears were giving Lovie and Shea their "dream back" did it occur to anyone that they had no proven, legitimate WRs that fit this offense? That Desmond Clark isn't exactly Gonzo out there? And that if some reason Grossman got hurt they had no one that had played in an NFL game in the last 3 years backing him up? What good is a RB to fit the offense, if the rest of the offense is bad?

Edited November 26, 2004 by Neon Owl

[Skrappy1]

First of all projections are just that, projections.  There is nothing in the Jones history to demonstrate he can maintain that pace.

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Of course projections are just that, I admitted as much. But still, those are numbers projected out based upon his pace for actual games that he played in the Bears' system with Grossman...they are not just made up projections...they at least have some validity.

 

I would also like to point out that A-Train's career yard per carry is not 3.5, but 4.0 (rounded it's like 3.978) which is adequate.

Fair enough, and yes it is adequate. You got my point though, A-Train and Jones are completely different types of players, and Jones is also a terrific receiver. I never said A-Train was a bad player, but he isn't much of a homerun threat either. Smith and Chicago's personnel people obviously feel Jones is a better fit for their system.

 

Coming into this year Jones ypc is 3.8 (again rounded).

True again but 3 of those years were in Arizona playing for awful Cardinal teams. I doubt that anyone could have had success on those teams. Since he left Arizona, his ypc average is now 4.4...more than adequate. The situation there was similar to the situation he is in now playing with Chicago's backup QBs. In his 3 seasons in Arizona, Plummer never threw for more than 18 TDs and had a total of 49 TDs to 55 INTs over that 3-year period. Twice he had more INTs then TDs. That isn't much of a threatening passing game either, and more importantly, Arizona's offensive line was trash. Michael Pittman was also in Arizona 2 of those seasons and he had a 3.9 and 3.5 ypc average those 2 seasons. He has also proved himself quite capable since leaving the mess in the desert behind.

 

While the Bears were giving Lovie and Shea their "dream back" did it occur to anyone that they had no proven, legitimate WRs that fit this offense? That Desmond Clark isn't exactly Gonzo out there? And that if some reason Grossman got hurt they had no one that had played in an NFL game in the last 3 years backing him up? What good is a RB to fit the offense, if the rest of the offense is bad?

How long have you been watching football? Teams are not built in one season. Was Gonzo a free agent last year that they could have signed him? No. Was there a lot of affordable WR talent out there last year? No. Terrell Owens was a free-agent, but no way they could have afforded him and more importantly there isn't a chance he would've signed with Chicago.

 

I could name at least 4 or 5 current NFL teams without 1 decent QB...it's not like there is an abundance of good talent around the league for them to get a good backup. That being the case, tell me exactly who did you want the Bears to sign to be their backup QB? Mark Brunell? He was looking to be a starter and we saw how that turned out anyway. Jeff George? In his first year with a new team, I'm sure that Lovie didn't need a notrious problem player in his locker room. Kurt Warner? He knows the system, but he has been awful for several years in it now and he was also looking to get an opportunity to start, and I think that the Bears were ready to commit to Grossman. Quincy Carter? Maybe. I'm not sure of their salary cap situation, but in hindsight maybe that would've been a good move. Though Quincy isn't Joe Montana, I'm sure that he still had at least a few options of where he could've ended up as a backup...I'm not sure he would've chosen Chicago, it's not exactly a great team that free agents are dying to go play for right now.

 

Bottom line, I get the feeling you are one of the many guys who are just insistent on bashing Thomas Jones and labeling him a bust. If that's the case, then I won't bother wasting my time with this any longer. I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.

Edited November 26, 2004 by Skrappy1

[Big John]

just wondering what all the players from the 4 teams the bears have beat felt like watching that today, only to realize they were bested by it.  talk about yacking up your thanksgiving dinner in record time.......

 

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:doah: