Reggie Bush looks like he's in trouble

[Randall]

I'd rather see them allow the players to get endorsement deals with the college getting a sizable cut, that way everybody wins.

 

 

 

I would too. Common sense rarely prevails though.

[Coffeeman]

Yes, they should get paid more than 'just' an education, but rules are rules. I'm just sick about this IF (a big IF) its true - Reggie has really hurt the team and school.....

[Randall]

its hollywood baby!!!

 

 

 

UT would never do anything like that.

 

I wish they would re-do all the rules. Some of them are just absurd. Accepting gifts for favors isn't, but coaches get in trouble for buying their kids a burger.

[Bronco Billy]

"Reggie Bush Investigation"...as if the guy did something criminal.

 

 

Uhhhhh - He did do something criminal if he did recieve $100,000 while at USC. Could you be an more of an apologist for Bush? Oh, that's right, I forgat that he's Saint Reggie (pun intended).

[Bronco Billy]

I'd rather see them allow the players to get endorsement deals with the college getting a sizable cut, that way everybody wins.

 

 

Good idea. Let's turn NCAA football into what MLB is. Everyone is winning there, huh?

[Balzac]

Uhhhhh - He did do something criminal if he did recieve $100,000 while at USC. Could you be an more of an apologist for Bush? Oh, that's right, I forgat that he's Saint Reggie (pun intended).

 

 

What he allegedly did was a violation of NCAA rules - not a crime. There's a big difference.

[rajncajn]

Uhhhhh - He did do something criminal if he did recieve $100,000 while at USC. Could you be an more of an apologist for Bush? Oh, that's right, I forgat that he's Saint Reggie (pun intended).

 

 

I wasn't aware that was a crime, color me informed. So, tell me, what exactly is the penalty since you seem to know so much.

 

Good idea. Let's turn NCAA football into what MLB is. Everyone is winning there, huh?

 

 

Ok, I couldn't care less about MLB, so you'll have to fill me in on how the two could possibly compare.

Edited September 15, 2006 by rajncajn

[Bronco Billy]

I wasn't aware that was a crime, color me informed. So, tell me, what exactly is the penalty since you seem to know so much.

 

 

 

Pretty simple, really.

 

link

 

fraud

 

Intentionally deceiving another person and causing her to suffer a loss. Fraud includes lies and half-truths, such as selling a lemon and claiming "she runs like a dream."

 

Now, USC isn't a person, but it is a legal entity, and Bush isn't a she - but the law still applies. If Bush intentionally misrepresented his amatuer status while receiving compensation because he played at USC, and USC incurs a loss - which some type of sanction from the NCAA is sure to incur, you have all the elements of fraud in place.

[Bronco Billy]

 

Ok, I couldn't care less about MLB, so you'll have to fill me in on how the two could possibly compare.

 

 

You make my point exactly. You could care less about MLB. MLB has no meaningful financial restraint in place to keep teams in smaller markets competitive with teams from larger markets. So what you end up with is 5 or 6 teams that spend beaucoup bucks to make themselves super strong, a couple of very well managed medium market teams that surprise everyone and compete with the big spenders, and then all the rest of the league - 20 teams give or take that are nothing but fodder for the big teams to feast on. There is no hope in their fans' future, short term or long term, in being seriously competitive for a championship. In fact, if baseball weren't so ingrained in our culture as the national pastime AND it wasn't played in the middle of summer when it doesn't have to compete with other sports, it might have a serious problem maintaining a financially viable league with more than 12 teams, again, give or take.

 

You don't think college football wouldn't go down that same road if college athletes were allowed compensation beyond what they get now? And by the way, that compensation has huge impact - well beyond the tuition, books, room, & board that gets well over $100,000 total over 5 years for out-of-state students at a Div I university. There's also the very meaningful degree that can be earned, which greatly enhances future earnings for the athletes, even if they aren't one of the very small percentage that goes pro. To think full-ride college athletes aren't fairly compensated is laughable.

[Balzac]

Pretty simple, really.

 

link

 

fraud

 

Intentionally deceiving another person and causing her to suffer a loss. Fraud includes lies and half-truths, such as selling a lemon and claiming "she runs like a dream."

 

Now, USC isn't a person, but it is a legal entity, and Bush isn't a she - but the law still applies. If Bush intentionally misrepresented his amatuer status while receiving compensation because he played at USC, and USC incurs a loss - which some type of sanction from the NCAA is sure to incur, you have all the elements of fraud in place.

 

 

Too long to explain, but the facts here are not the grounds of a criminal fraud claim. MAYBE a tort claim, but even that's a stretch. Also, if receiving perks from agents while one was an "amateur" were grounds for criminal tort claims, several claims would have been made by now (Reggie isn't the first guy with deep pockets to be accused of this).

[Bronco Billy]

Too long to explain, but the facts here are not the grounds of a criminal fraud claim.

 

 

Okay, just pulled out my West's.

 

It states that criminal fraudulent misrepresentation consists of the following 3 elements:

 

1) A misrepresentation of material fact must occur. (Pretty obvious - he represented himself as complying with NCAA guidelines)

2) There must be intent to deceive. (Again, obvious. If he took $100,000 and did not tell anyone at USC it established intent of deception.)

3) The innocent party must justifiably rely upon the misrepresentation. (Unless one can prove USC was in on the deception, either actively or passively, that's obvious also.)

 

And then one party must be injured due to the fraud - which USC will easily be able to prove if it is sanctioned by the NCAA.

 

I'd be interested in hearing your position, though.

[rajncajn]

You make my point exactly. You could care less about MLB. MLB has no meaningful financial restraint in place to keep teams in smaller markets competitive with teams from larger markets. So what you end up with is 5 or 6 teams that spend beaucoup bucks to make themselves super strong, a couple of very well managed medium market teams that surprise everyone and compete with the big spenders, and then all the rest of the league - 20 teams give or take that are nothing but fodder for the big teams to feast on. There is no hope in their fans' future, short term or long term, in being seriously competitive for a championship. In fact, if baseball weren't so ingrained in our culture as the national pastime AND it wasn't played in the middle of summer when it doesn't have to compete with other sports, it might have a serious problem maintaining a financially viable league with more than 12 teams, again, give or take.

 

You don't think college football wouldn't go down that same road if college athletes were allowed compensation beyond what they get now? And by the way, that compensation has huge impact - well beyond the tuition, books, room, & board that gets well over $100,000 total over 5 years for out-of-state students at a Div I university. There's also the very meaningful degree that can be earned, which greatly enhances future earnings for the athletes, even if they aren't one of the very small percentage that goes pro. To think full-ride college athletes aren't fairly compensated is laughable.

 

The big market schools already get the better recruits, how would it be any different if the players recieved endorsements? I understand the point you're trying to make, but it's not like college players will be able to keep quitting colleges to go play for other colleges so that they can get endorsement deals and they won't become free agents when their eligibility is up. Besides, if the players are good enough it doesn't matter what team they play for, they'll still get the deals and in fact might have a better chance at being "seen" at the lesser schools. So, no, I don't think college football would go down that road, I don't think it can because it is structured so completely different from MLB.

 

And I didn't say they weren't fairly compensated(many of them anyway), but when you compare it to what the schools get for them I think it's sickening. Many schools are making money hand-over-fist from their athletics depts and the players get what out of the deal? A degree, nothing more, nothing less...luck be with you from here on out. If people out there are willing to pay these players to sponsor them then I can't see any valid reason why they should be able to accept it.

[tbimm]

Pretty simple, really.

 

link

 

fraud

 

Intentionally deceiving another person and causing her to suffer a loss. Fraud includes lies and half-truths, such as selling a lemon and claiming "she runs like a dream."

 

Now, USC isn't a person, but it is a legal entity, and Bush isn't a she - but the law still applies. If Bush intentionally misrepresented his amatuer status while receiving compensation because he played at USC, and USC incurs a loss - which some type of sanction from the NCAA is sure to incur, you have all the elements of fraud in place.

 

The day you get that into a court of law is the day that pigs start flying!

[rajncajn]

Okay, just pulled out my West's.

 

It states that criminal fraudulent misrepresentation consists of the following 3 elements:

 

1) A misrepresentation of material fact must occur. (Pretty obvious - he represented himself as complying with NCAA guidelines)

2) There must be intent to deceive. (Again, obvious. If he took $100,000 and did not tell anyone at USC it established intent of deception.)

3) The innocent party must justifiably rely upon the misrepresentation. (Unless one can prove USC was in on the deception, either actively or passively, that's obvious also.)

 

And then one party must be injured due to the fraud - which USC will easily be able to prove if it is sanctioned by the NCAA.

 

I'd be interested in hearing your position, though.

 

I'm curious, has a player ever been criminally charged or even had criminal investigations brought up because of this? If not then why not? It's certainly happened many times in the past. And why hasn't that facet even been mentioned in the media during all these "investigations?"

[Bushey]

Yes, they should get paid more than 'just' an education, but rules are rules. I'm just sick about this IF (a big IF) its true - Reggie has really hurt the team and school.....

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

All good things come to an end.

[Bronco Billy]

A degree, nothing more, nothing less

 

 

That has little to no value in your mind? Let's see, without my degrees, I wouldn't be in my line of work, wouldn't be state certified, and wouldn't own my business.

 

Do I need to provide the studies that show exactly what a college degree is worth in regard to earning power and cumulative capital both initially and over a life time? They're easy to find and I'd be happy to comply if you continue to insist that a college degree is a trivial matter.

[Bronco Billy]

I'm curious, has a player ever been criminally charged or even had criminal investigations brought up because of this? If not then why not? It's certainly happened many times in the past. And why hasn't that facet even been mentioned in the media during all these "investigations?"

 

 

That's a very good question that I'd like the answer to, also.

[rajncajn]

That has little to no value in your mind? Let's see, without my degrees, I wouldn't be in my line of work, wouldn't be state certified, and wouldn't own my business.

 

Do I need to provide the studies that show exactly what a college degree is worth in regard to earning power and cumulative capital both initially and over a life time? They're easy to find and I'd be happy to comply if you continue to insist that a college degree is a trivial matter.

 

I never said it was trivial or worthless, but you care so much about your own opinion that you can't seem to comprehend that when reading my posts.

 

And I didn't say they weren't fairly compensated(many of them anyway), but when you compare it to what the schools get for them I think it's sickening. Many schools are making money hand-over-fist from their athletics depts and the players get what out of the deal? A degree, nothing more, nothing less...luck be with you from here on out. If people out there are willing to pay these players to sponsor them then I can't see any valid reason why they should be able to accept it.

Look up all the statistics you want, but I know for a fact that a degree does not always equate success.

[Ursa Majoris]

Look up all the statistics you want, but I know for a fact that a degree does not always equate success.

 

Quite a coincidence, because I just posted the link below in a Tailgate discussion on a similar subject.

 

College unemployment exceeds high school dropout unemployment

 

Looks like degrees don't equal success.

[Bill Swerski]

Well, the theory is that a free education is the compensation.

 

 

Unfortunately, the "education" is a complete joke in most cases. In a perfect world, football would have a minor-league system but the universities would lose too much money.

 

It would be a forfeit, so the teams that lost to them would be considered the national champions by default.

 

 

One would think that the universities would try a little harder to keep stuff like this under wraps, because THEY'RE the ones that lose in the end. Being stripped of a national championship is bad enough, but NCAA sanctions against guilty programs can destroy them. IIRC, SMU had a pretty good football program going until they got caught. Such miscounduct was also one of the major reasons that Peyton Manning went to Tennessee.

[Bill Swerski]

Look up all the statistics you want, but I know for a fact that a degree does not always equate success.

 

 

I know Ph.D. scientists who are construction workers now because they couldn't find jobs in their field after going through 5-6 years of grad school.

[Balzac]

Okay, just pulled out my West's.

 

It states that criminal fraudulent misrepresentation consists of the following 3 elements:

 

1) A misrepresentation of material fact must occur. (Pretty obvious - he represented himself as complying with NCAA guidelines)

2) There must be intent to deceive. (Again, obvious. If he took $100,000 and did not tell anyone at USC it established intent of deception.)

3) The innocent party must justifiably rely upon the misrepresentation. (Unless one can prove USC was in on the deception, either actively or passively, that's obvious also.)

 

And then one party must be injured due to the fraud - which USC will easily be able to prove if it is sanctioned by the NCAA.

 

I'd be interested in hearing your position, though.

 

 

I don't think it's obvious at all. What representation did he make? Was he periodically asked if he was in compliance with NCAA rules? I have no idea, but I don't see anything that amounts to a misrepresentation. Mere failure to comply with rules is not a misrepresentation unless/until the offender says "yes - I am in compliance and always have been." Unless there was such an affirmative representation, the NCAA had nothing to justifiably rely upon either.

 

I also don't see an intent to deceive. I see an intent to break a rule, which is entirely different.

 

If failure to comply with rules/laws was tantamount to fraud, why is the government not bringing fraud cases against everyone who violates laws?

[Balzac]

I'm curious, has a player ever been criminally charged or even had criminal investigations brought up because of this? If not then why not? It's certainly happened many times in the past. And why hasn't that facet even been mentioned in the media during all these "investigations?"

 

 

because there's no bais for a criminal fraud claim here. It might look colorable at first glance, but if you look closely it doesn't fit.

[Balzac]

I know Ph.D. scientists who are construction workers now because they couldn't find jobs in their field after going through 5-6 years of grad school.

 

 

yikes - now that sucks.

[rajncajn]

[sarcasm]I'm curious, has a player ever been criminally charged or even had criminal investigations brought up because of this? If not then why not? It's certainly happened many times in the past. And why hasn't that facet even been mentioned in the media during all these "investigations?"[/sarcasm]

 

 

 

because there's no bais for a criminal fraud claim here. It might look colorable at first glance, but if you look closely it doesn't fit.

 

Fixed for clarity.