Pope Flick Posted March 11, 2007 Share Posted March 11, 2007 Maybe Pope Flick can learn a few things here too. I'm always willing to learn something new. I just don't proclaim in myself knowledge when I don't actually have it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheGrunt Posted March 11, 2007 Share Posted March 11, 2007 By the way, the paper I cited actually supports your basic thoughts--it should help you clarify your thinking though. (Note also that I assign this paper in my classes sometime.) Good info to know here. Thanks wiegie. Well, it only took you 2,319 posts, but you finally got something right. The best part about it is that I don't think your brother realizes yet that it insults him too. No I don't think he realizes it yet. I'll let him figure that one out, he deserves it for allowing such false material work as his signature. Although, if one of us two geniuses has to be smarter than the other, then regarding politics thecerwin does know more about it. Or at least he'll be able to clarify his thinking on the subject of politics more than I can. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheGrunt Posted March 11, 2007 Share Posted March 11, 2007 (edited) I'm always willing to learn something new. I just don't proclaim in myself knowledge when I don't actually have it. That's because you are not a superhuman like I am. I might be wrong about several issues, but what better place to learn about it than The Huddle? Besides, later on in life I'll surround myself with people who will work with me not against me. That way my Superhuman - alway right - mindset can go on to do beautiful things. EDIT: and besides, with all the different range of topics that I'm willing to discuss I'm usually on the right track with my thinking. Sometimes all it takes is a little clarification. Edited March 11, 2007 by TheGrunt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pope Flick Posted March 11, 2007 Share Posted March 11, 2007 EDIT: and besides, with all the different range of topics that I'm willing to discuss I'm usually on the right track with my thinking. Except for this topic and Scandanvavian conuntries like you already admitted. Nice try though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheGrunt Posted March 11, 2007 Share Posted March 11, 2007 Except for this topic and Scandanvavian conuntries like you already admitted. Nice try though. I was on the right track with it though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pope Flick Posted March 11, 2007 Share Posted March 11, 2007 I was on the right track with it though. No, you weren't no matter how much you think so. Chavez is right when he says your logic is 'it works unless it doesn't." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chavez Posted March 12, 2007 Share Posted March 12, 2007 No, you weren't no matter how much you think so. Chavez is right when he says your logic is 'it works unless it doesn't." It was actually "it doesn't work except when it does" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheGrunt Posted March 12, 2007 Share Posted March 12, 2007 No, you weren't no matter how much you think so. Chavez is right when he says your logic is 'it works unless it doesn't." It was actually "it doesn't work except when it does" That's so cute. You guys should go on tour together, I bet you can make a difference. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rocknrobn26 Posted March 12, 2007 Share Posted March 12, 2007 I have read most of the posts on this thread. I have replied to all of the threads of this type, over the years, and it's getting old, but then so am I. So here's my reply: My background: 31 years teaching in everything from Jr. HS to Grad school. I have 5+ years of industrial experience in Welding, Mech Design, and Machine Tool Operations (machinist/tool & die). I have been a consultant for major corporations, I co-wrote ~5 books on AutoCad, have attended many seminars and have certifications in several related fields, and am a Professor Emeritus from the then largest single campus Community College in the USA. But I was ALWAYS a TEACHER! 1) I have always been and always will be a staunch supporter of teacher unions ( I've been a member of both IEA and AFT) and am proud of it! 2) I have spent countless hours on union committees to make education better! 3) I have also spent countless hours trying to make our profession honorable and reasonably paid. It's always been curious/hughmoress to me that because people spend, hopefully second place, most of their time with a teacher that THEY know this job as well as anyone. And that is where the problem w/ teaching and education in general is F'd up. Until one has taught or has done anything else for that matter IN A PROFESSION, they don't know squat about a/the job. Unions: 1) They don't protect bad teachers! They provide a method for "Due Process". Believe me I have been responsible for many teacher firings, but they got "due process". 2) Tenure is bupkis! Never heard of life-time tenure (and coming from a "right to work state" that says a lot!), unless we're talking about Mr. Chips! 3) Unions help to protect teachers from "arbitrary and capricious" behavior. That's a biggie! Too easy to say "I don't like this teacher because.....and the reason is the district is trying to save cash! In general: Are there bad teachers? YES! Can they be fired? YES if the admin does their job! Tenure or not! Are unions bad? If you're not in a union you'd say yes! Making teachers accountable? We're not making gears here! Teachers get what they get from the student body and live w/ it! Measure what? Bottom line.....The PARENTS are the biggest variable in this puzzle! They don't care, the kids don't care. IF THE PARENTS ARE INVOLVED, THE KIDS WILL DO FINE!!!! CASE CLOSED!!!! God bless Egret, Yukon, Irish, and the rest of you dedicating your life to educating our youth! We need and want you! Pope, Try having the locals pay for GOOD EDUCATION.....they will at you. Never will happen. Teachers do what they do because of dedication and desire! If they don't do that, they drop out and become realtors! Lastly, I hate the connotation that "Voc Ed" was devoted to the dummies! Look at the tech world we are in! No "DUMBIE" could deal w/ the electronics, math, science, etc. that the average welder, car mechanic, machinist, etc. has to know to succeed! We'll see who really reads this and the other posts. Seems lately that all most care about is posting their opinion and the other posts be damned! This isn't the place it used to be. Read, dammit!!!! Read as much as possible!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bushwacked Posted March 12, 2007 Share Posted March 12, 2007 FWIW, Socialism is not being considered in the U.S. It is being implemented in the U.S. Would you please define socialism for us? I would like to comment, but I want a clear definition so that we aren't talking past one-another. I want to see Savage kick out the knowledge. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Holy Roller Posted March 12, 2007 Share Posted March 12, 2007 I have read most of the posts on this thread. I have replied to all of the threads of this type, over the years, and it's getting old, but then so am I. So here's my reply: My background: 31 years teaching in everything from Jr. HS to Grad school. I have 5+ years of industrial experience in Welding, Mech Design, and Machine Tool Operations (machinist/tool & die). I have been a consultant for major corporations, I co-wrote ~5 books on AutoCad, have attended many seminars and have certifications in several related fields, and am a Professor Emeritus from the then largest single campus Community College in the USA. But I was ALWAYS a TEACHER! 1) I have always been and always will be a staunch supporter of teacher unions ( I've been a member of both IEA and AFT) and am proud of it! 2) I have spent countless hours on union committees to make education better! 3) I have also spent countless hours trying to make our profession honorable and reasonably paid. It's always been curious/hughmoress to me that because people spend, hopefully second place, most of their time with a teacher that THEY know this job as well as anyone. And that is where the problem w/ teaching and education in general is F'd up. Until one has taught or has done anything else for that matter IN A PROFESSION, they don't know squat about a/the job. Unions: 1) They don't protect bad teachers! They provide a method for "Due Process". Believe me I have been responsible for many teacher firings, but they got "due process". 2) Tenure is bupkis! Never heard of life-time tenure (and coming from a "right to work state" that says a lot!), unless we're talking about Mr. Chips! 3) Unions help to protect teachers from "arbitrary and capricious" behavior. That's a biggie! Too easy to say "I don't like this teacher because.....and the reason is the district is trying to save cash! In general: Are there bad teachers? YES! Can they be fired? YES if the admin does their job! Tenure or not! Are unions bad? If you're not in a union you'd say yes! Making teachers accountable? We're not making gears here! Teachers get what they get from the student body and live w/ it! Measure what? Bottom line.....The PARENTS are the biggest variable in this puzzle! They don't care, the kids don't care. IF THE PARENTS ARE INVOLVED, THE KIDS WILL DO FINE!!!! CASE CLOSED!!!! God bless Egret, Yukon, Irish, and the rest of you dedicating your life to educating our youth! We need and want you! Pope, Try having the locals pay for GOOD EDUCATION.....they will at you. Never will happen. Teachers do what they do because of dedication and desire! If they don't do that, they drop out and become realtors! Lastly, I hate the connotation that "Voc Ed" was devoted to the dummies! Look at the tech world we are in! No "DUMBIE" could deal w/ the electronics, math, science, etc. that the average welder, car mechanic, machinist, etc. has to know to succeed! We'll see who really reads this and the other posts. Seems lately that all most care about is posting their opinion and the other posts be damned! This isn't the place it used to be. Read, dammit!!!! Read as much as possible!!! Well said RR. Even the union crap. (Makes me proud to be in HOT, sniff.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yukon Cornelius Posted March 12, 2007 Share Posted March 12, 2007 FWIW, Socialism is not being considered in the U.S. It is being implemented in the U.S. Frankly, I don't see any way of stopping it short of outright revolution, which pretty much can't ever occur in a nation with a modern military. Just sit back and try every way in your power to get your largest possible share of the redistribution. this country is so far away from socialism that its not possable we have been slipping into a minor form of Fascism but that wont last ether... we are such a new country that we havnt figured thing sout quite yet.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yukon Cornelius Posted March 12, 2007 Share Posted March 12, 2007 I have read most of the posts on this thread. I have replied to all of the threads of this type, over the years, and it's getting old, but then so am I. So here's my reply: My background: 31 years teaching in everything from Jr. HS to Grad school. I have 5+ years of industrial experience in Welding, Mech Design, and Machine Tool Operations (machinist/tool & die). I have been a consultant for major corporations, I co-wrote ~5 books on AutoCad, have attended many seminars and have certifications in several related fields, and am a Professor Emeritus from the then largest single campus Community College in the USA. But I was ALWAYS a TEACHER! 1) I have always been and always will be a staunch supporter of teacher unions ( I've been a member of both IEA and AFT) and am proud of it! 2) I have spent countless hours on union committees to make education better! 3) I have also spent countless hours trying to make our profession honorable and reasonably paid. It's always been curious/hughmoress to me that because people spend, hopefully second place, most of their time with a teacher that THEY know this job as well as anyone. And that is where the problem w/ teaching and education in general is F'd up. Until one has taught or has done anything else for that matter IN A PROFESSION, they don't know squat about a/the job. Unions: 1) They don't protect bad teachers! They provide a method for "Due Process". Believe me I have been responsible for many teacher firings, but they got "due process". 2) Tenure is bupkis! Never heard of life-time tenure (and coming from a "right to work state" that says a lot!), unless we're talking about Mr. Chips! 3) Unions help to protect teachers from "arbitrary and capricious" behavior. That's a biggie! Too easy to say "I don't like this teacher because.....and the reason is the district is trying to save cash! In general: Are there bad teachers? YES! Can they be fired? YES if the admin does their job! Tenure or not! Are unions bad? If you're not in a union you'd say yes! Making teachers accountable? We're not making gears here! Teachers get what they get from the student body and live w/ it! Measure what? Bottom line.....The PARENTS are the biggest variable in this puzzle! They don't care, the kids don't care. IF THE PARENTS ARE INVOLVED, THE KIDS WILL DO FINE!!!! CASE CLOSED!!!! God bless Egret, Yukon, Irish, and the rest of you dedicating your life to educating our youth! We need and want you! Pope, Try having the locals pay for GOOD EDUCATION.....they will at you. Never will happen. Teachers do what they do because of dedication and desire! If they don't do that, they drop out and become realtors! Lastly, I hate the connotation that "Voc Ed" was devoted to the dummies! Look at the tech world we are in! No "DUMBIE" could deal w/ the electronics, math, science, etc. that the average welder, car mechanic, machinist, etc. has to know to succeed! We'll see who really reads this and the other posts. Seems lately that all most care about is posting their opinion and the other posts be damned! This isn't the place it used to be. Read, dammit!!!! Read as much as possible!!! u the man Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheGrunt Posted March 12, 2007 Share Posted March 12, 2007 this country is so far away from socialism that its not possable we have been slipping into a minor form of Fascism but that wont last ether... we are such a new country that we havnt figured thing sout quite yet.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeeR Posted March 12, 2007 Share Posted March 12, 2007 (edited) I pose this question to my classes every year, "Would you work harder if you were paid for your grades?" And I explain that on report card day the office would have you line up and pay you for your grades just like it was your job. 99.99% say "Heck yeah!" Though I know it is an outlandish thought it always makes me think... If a kid was acting up in class or giving me grief I could then hold his "paycheck" over his head as a way of getting him back in line. But I also think the NCAA should just go ahead and pay college athletes, too. My first thought is what a terrible idea this is, ie basically rewarding someone for something they are supposed to be doing (not the same as a job)....at best I could maybe see if it was done "in reverse" ie don't pay them for doing well/OK but fine them if they DON'T do well. Edit: my bad, didn't mean to break up the grunt vs whoever cat fight Edited March 12, 2007 by BeeR Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Savage Beatings Posted March 12, 2007 Share Posted March 12, 2007 I want to see Savage kick out the knowledge. I don't allow people to bait me into useless arguments with evasive Pontius Pilate questions like, "What is truth?" We all know what Socialism means... so I'm not going to waste my time researching a definition that may or may not fit what Wieige wants it to fit. If you want to talk about it, then let's just talk about it... but I'm not going to have someone give me a homework assignment for crying out loud. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Holy Roller Posted March 12, 2007 Share Posted March 12, 2007 (edited) My first thought is what a terrible idea this is, ie basically rewarding someone for something they are supposed to be doing (not the same as a job)....at best I could maybe see if it was done "in reverse" ie don't pay them for doing well/OK but fine them if they DON'T do well. Edit: my bad, didn't mean to break up the grunt vs whoever cat fight I agree with you BeeR. Why should people be rewarded for doing what they're supposed to be doing? Now, finish that homework children so we can get back to the fights. Oh, and none of you better be doing this during work. That's stealing. Edited March 12, 2007 by The Holy Roller Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pope Flick Posted March 12, 2007 Share Posted March 12, 2007 I don't allow people to bait me into useless arguments with evasive Pontius Pilate questions like, "What is truth?" We all know what Socialism means... so I'm not going to waste my time researching a definition that may or may not fit what Wieige wants it to fit. If you want to talk about it, then let's just talk about it... but I'm not going to have someone give me a homework assignment for crying out loud. Well, to be fair wiedgie had a point and that was a different conversation all-together - I don't think it's the same as what you said. BTW - who's doing the baiting the person asking for a further explanation or you who dropped that head scratching comment in the middle where seemingly nobody noticed? I'm curious what you meant by that as well. Example? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pope Flick Posted March 12, 2007 Share Posted March 12, 2007 Pope, Try having the locals pay for GOOD EDUCATION.....they will at you. Never will happen. Teachers do what they do because of dedication and desire! If they don't do that, they drop out and become realtors! Well, with the idea of tackling the missing Education budget where money seems to disappear, I would hope that an overhaul would find that missing money and find it funnelled back to the teachers. NOT force communities to pay more $ into a system where it'll disappear. That's very much not what I meant: parents paying more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimmy Neutron Posted March 12, 2007 Share Posted March 12, 2007 Not to hijack the thread, but I'm between meetings at a national conference and was just given some interesting info - especially concerning the tangent of socialism in this thread. We were just given per treatment costs for a particular dialysis therapy in the U.S., Canada and Mexico. I have changed the numbers reported (very confidential), but the ratio is exactly the same (used the same multiplier for each): U.S. $24.81 Canada $71.50 Mexico $13.85 Keep in mind that the raw materials are the same & manufactured by the same company in these three countries. They did not break the labor piece out, but it was mentioned that favorable labor rates is what got the Mexico cost down so low. It's a very narrow scope, but a real life example of comparative health care costs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bushwacked Posted March 12, 2007 Share Posted March 12, 2007 I don't allow people to bait me into useless arguments with evasive Pontius Pilate questions like, "What is truth?" We all know what Socialism means... so I'm not going to waste my time researching a definition that may or may not fit what Wieige wants it to fit. If you want to talk about it, then let's just talk about it... but I'm not going to have someone give me a homework assignment for crying out loud. I wasn't referring to that, but it seems like their are some fundamental difference of opinions as indicated by the following 2 statements which seem rather contradictory. FWIW, Socialism is not being considered in the U.S. It is being implemented in the U.S. Frankly, I don't see any way of stopping it short of outright revolution, which pretty much can't ever occur in a nation with a modern military. And it is impossible to plausibly argue that the United States has moved towards being more Socialist over the last few decades. Which is it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Savage Beatings Posted March 12, 2007 Share Posted March 12, 2007 (edited) Which is it? I'm right. Edited March 12, 2007 by Savage Beatings Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perchoutofwater Posted March 12, 2007 Share Posted March 12, 2007 I wasn't referring to that, but it seems like their are some fundamental difference of opinions as indicated by the following 2 statements which seem rather contradictory. Which is it? We are a lot closer to socialism today than we were when this country was founded. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yo mama Posted March 12, 2007 Share Posted March 12, 2007 We are a lot closer to socialism today than we were when this country was founded. Obviously. But I suspect that has more to do with the size of the population relative to the the nation's natural resources than anything else. It's not like the average joe can just move out west and stake a claim to 100 acres of vacant land any more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yukon Cornelius Posted March 12, 2007 Share Posted March 12, 2007 Obviously. But I suspect that has more to do with the size of the population relative to the the nation's natural resources than anything else. It's not like the average joe can just move out west and stake a claim to 100 acres of vacant land any more. correct Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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