TimC Posted March 7, 2007 Share Posted March 7, 2007 There have always been dumb kids. Back in the day, they would drop out by 7th grade and work on the farm. Now the Mexicans have taken over their jobs and we have to deal with putting these people into society somehow. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spain Posted March 7, 2007 Author Share Posted March 7, 2007 I think the decline of the public school system started with the liberal agenda that came out of the 1960's. First, they decided to end nieghborhood schools, where pride in your school, your area, your teams, was very important. They tossed all of that aside in favor of the liberal notion that we needed to bus kids to areas far from their homee to conquer societal ills. I was one of the unfortunate victims of this misguided liberal idea. I am pretty sure that everyone will agree that bussing was an umittigated disaster. It was just another failed liberal social policy that ended up doing ALOT more harm than good. Everyone's academic achievement suffered as a result of this fiasco. And white flight, along with the explosion in the number of private schools, as a result of busing, has decimated school systems in big cities across the country. When we get away from educating children and start trying to achieve other goals such as correcting social problems, thats when education went downhill. Â Couple that with several other failed liberal social policies that have been shoved down the school systems throats and we are left with a failing school system. Social promotion. Diversity. Not wanting to hurt a childs "self esteem". Affirmative action. No Child Left Behind. All of these ideas have had a deliterious affect on our schools, because they are always given priority over what the mission should be: Educate the f'n kids! But no! Social agendas must come first while our children suffer the consequences. Throw in the Unions who dont care nearly as much about educating kids as they do about protecting their own, good or bad, and we have a recipe for disaster. Is anyone really surprised that when education of the children is given such a low priority, just so social policy can be made the ultimate goal, that we get exactly what we asked for? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perchoutofwater Posted March 7, 2007 Share Posted March 7, 2007 (edited) Part of the problem with schools is there are no alternatives anymore for the dumb kids. Back in the day the dumb kids took the vocational classes with no intention of ever attending college. Now it seems that people think everyone should attend college. Some people just aren't college material. All men are not created equally, and I don't care what documents say that they are. I'll never run a 4.4 40 yard dash. I'll never have a 40" vertical jump. I suck at chemistry, but kick ass a physics and math. Until we realize that not everyone is the same, then we will continue to water down courses for those that can't keep up, giving them a false sense of hope, and holding back those that could excel. I busted my but it chemistry in college and ended up with a D in the one chemistry class I was required to take. Why was I required to take a chemistry? It had nothing to do with my field of study? In physics I took 3 courses in college and made A's in all three. We have kids taking courses that they are never going to use, who slow down the learning process of those that will use them. Â The integration of schools was and is a major problem with our education system. Before you go off and start calling me a racist, let me tell you the problem has very little to do with race. The problem is busing kids from all over BFE. If you have access to it, look at your local school districts budget, and see how much of it is taken up by transportation. The school district my wife works in has kids bused in from as far as 40 miles away, all so that back in the late 60's each district could have the proper proportion of minority students. Â The amount of money lost in the beaurocracy of our federal education system is disgusting. Rather than sending the money to Washington, to then pay a bean counter there to count it, have several people paid to sit on comities to decide how to spend it, and then send it back to the states, just let the states collect all the taxes and get rid of the Department of Education. Â Unions are another problem. They protect bad teachers plain and simple. My wife works with a teacher that broke several minor school rules. Mostly selling candy and what not to students in her classroom. When the principal confronted her about it she start cussing him out at the top of her lungs in the middle of the school day in front of students in the hallway. You would think she would have gotten fired, but no the union stepped in. By the time it was all said and done she kept her job because the union lawyer said she suffered from a chemical imbalance that was noted by a note from a physician, and that if she was fired they she would file suit against the school district. It is almost impossible to fire a teacher, particularly if he/she is a minority. I had an English teacher in high school that my mother substitute taught for. The nice teacher wanted to thank my mother for how well she did in her absence, so she wrote her a thank you note. The note was five sentences and in those five sentences there were 3 grammatical errors and two misspelled words. My mother took the not to the principal and the principal said he wished that he could do something about it, but that because she was a minority there would be hell to pay if he fired her. We also need to change how teachers are paid. Rather than paying the based on seniority pay them on performance. The administrator do a peer review with them twice a year, and know how well or how poorly they teach. Let the administrators determine teacher's salaries based on merit in lieu of on seniority. Â Still, the biggest problem is the parents. Parents need to be involved in their children's education. If they are then their children will do much better barring some mental disability. Parents also need to have realistic expectations of their children and realize that little Johnny may not be cut out to be a neurosurgeon. Parents need to give administrators back the right to discipline their children during the school day, and then if they get a call from the school saying little Johnny got a paddling, they need to paddle him again when he gets home from school. Â Edit to add: Another issue though smaller is all districts should have rules in place where the spouse or children of school board members and off campus administrators can not be teachers in that district. Edited March 7, 2007 by Perchoutofwater Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yukon Cornelius Posted March 7, 2007 Share Posted March 7, 2007 (edited) Just so we all understand something, this has nothing to do with the teacher's union, per se. Every single aspect of our education system is complicit in this crime.   true dat I've said here before that we should go to a voucher system for educating kids. (And to avoid any separation of church and state issues, they can just prohibit any teaching of religious doctrine in any schools that get money.)  voucher is the dumerest thing ever.... i mean ever   Teachers Unions will fight that voucher system tooth and nail...  cause they no its dumerer than anything ever proposed  I think complete recertification of teachers is a solid starting point, and the union would never let that happen in order to protect those that wouldn't make the cut.  i have to be re certified every five years... it take about 5 years to get you're degree in the first place... then u need a least 15 credits or 150 hours of training every five years..... how many jobs do that??  Are you guys just figuring out that this is a nation of idiots?   no, and wait till the nexted generation is making dissensions . Those that pointed the finger at parents, stand up and take a bow. You are right.  there can be a whole lot of blame thrown there but the schools and school district should shoulder some of the blame... there wimps and wont stand up to the parents and change things... Edited March 7, 2007 by Yukon Cornelius Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ursa Majoris Posted March 7, 2007 Share Posted March 7, 2007 Part of the problem with schools is there are no alternatives anymore for the dumb kids. Back in the day the dumb kids took the vocational classes with no intention of ever attending college. Now it seems that people think everyone should attend college. Some people just aren't college material. All men are not created equally, and I don't care what documents say that they are. I'll never run a 4.4 40 yard dash. I'll never have a 40" vertical jump. I suck at chemistry, but kick ass a physics and math. Until we realize that not everyone is the same, then we will continue to water down courses for those that can't keep up, giving them a false sense of hope, and holding back those that could excel. I busted my but it chemistry in college and ended up with a D in the one chemistry class I was required to take. Why was I required to take a chemistry? It had nothing to do with my field of study? In physics I took 3 courses in college and made A's in all three. We have kids taking courses that they are never going to use, who slow down the learning process of those that will use them. Â Â Â Abso-f'n-lutely correct. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yukon Cornelius Posted March 7, 2007 Share Posted March 7, 2007 (edited) Part of the problem with schools is there are no alternatives anymore for the dumb kids. Â perch does have a point here but im not sure he would be happy to know why that stuff is gone.... Â unions can take some of the blame but they are actually trying to change things and have, at least here in sconny and MN.. Â no lifetime tenure, increased hours for recertification etc... Â and in Europe they start pointing the kids in vocations/ post secondary at about 5th grade..... people would go nuts here if we started to TRACK kids who may or may not go to collage/ votec etc. Edited March 7, 2007 by Yukon Cornelius Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perchoutofwater Posted March 7, 2007 Share Posted March 7, 2007 perch does have a point here but im not sure he would be happy to know why that stuff is gone.... Â Â I know why. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perchoutofwater Posted March 7, 2007 Share Posted March 7, 2007 Hey Yuk, rather than saying vouchers are a dumb idea, why not tell us why they are a dumb idea. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kid Cid Posted March 7, 2007 Share Posted March 7, 2007 Valid points perch, but how do we go about fixing it? In general we say, things like the union are the problem, let's get break up the unions. Or, we're not spending enough money per student, we need to raise the per capita spending. Or, Our teachers aren't doing a good job, lets re-certify them every 5 years. Or, the parents aren't involved enough, let's find a way to engage them more. Or the administration isn't doing enough to raise test scores, let's pas a law requiring them to. Â Each one of those steps is yet another bandaid on a system that is failing in its current mission and will collapse in due time. It can't be fixed. Maybe it's easier for me to view things this way because I don't have kids and I don't have any biases from being too close to the situation. Â IMO, no amount of patching will fix what ails education in this country. The entire system top to bottom needs to be blown up and replaced with something new. Think of it as an assembly line built in the 1940's. You can't keep fixing the machines and expect them to keep making things better, faster, and cheaper. Eventually you need to rip all the old stuff out and modernize the system. Same thing with education. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yukon Cornelius Posted March 7, 2007 Share Posted March 7, 2007 Hey Yuk, rather than saying vouchers are a dumb idea, why not tell us why they are a dumb idea. Â they will only centralize the smart kids , leaving a god awful mess.... there is already a mass exoduses from city schools to suburban and private schools were they have less or absolutely 0 ebd, handicapped, low income etc special ed( which is the most expensive thanks to no child left with a degree).... if we are moving to a feudal style of schooling who will make the potato chips?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perchoutofwater Posted March 7, 2007 Share Posted March 7, 2007 Valid points perch, but how do we go about fixing it? In general we say, things like the union are the problem, let's get break up the unions. Or, we're not spending enough money per student, we need to raise the per capita spending. Or, Our teachers aren't doing a good job, lets re-certify them every 5 years. Or, the parents aren't involved enough, let's find a way to engage them more. Or the administration isn't doing enough to raise test scores, let's pas a law requiring them to. Â Each one of those steps is yet another bandaid on a system that is failing in its current mission and will collapse in due time. It can't be fixed. Maybe it's easier for me to view things this way because I don't have kids and I don't have any biases from being too close to the situation. Â IMO, no amount of patching will fix what ails education in this country. The entire system top to bottom needs to be blown up and replaced with something new. Think of it as an assembly line built in the 1940's. You can't keep fixing the machines and expect them to keep making things better, faster, and cheaper. Eventually you need to rip all the old stuff out and modernize the system. Same thing with education. Â Â I agree to a point. I've always been a fan of the voucher system. Some are concerned that this will leave those out that have mental handicaps as they will not be able to get into the private schools because of their poor academics. To this I say if their is a voucher system private schools will be made for those people as well as long as there is a profit in it. This would be the idea solution. Â Another option is simply to go back to the neighborhood schools. This would cut the cost of education significantly as it would do away with a great deal of the transportation costs we currently have. Reintroduce vocational classes into the schools. Rather than tracking kids which is a good idea but will never fly in this society, just have it to where if by high school, kids can't reach minimum academic levels force them into vocational programs. This puts some of the onus back on the parents. If they don't want their kids to go to vocational schools, then they need to spend more time with them and their education. Â Pay teachers based on merit not on tenure. Give teachers and administrators back the rights to discipline their students that they had 25 or 30 years ago. Do away with the Department of Education and get rid of the middle man when it comes to school funding. Get rid of teachers unions. Make it to where school districts are immune from lawsuits for failing a kid or not placing a kid in a program that the parents "feel" he/she should be in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perchoutofwater Posted March 7, 2007 Share Posted March 7, 2007 (edited) they will only centralize the smart kids , leaving a god awful mess.... there is already a mass exoduses from city schools to suburban and private schools were they have less or absolutely 0 ebd, handicapped, low income etc special ed( which is the most expensive thanks to no child left with a degree).... if we are moving to a feudal style of schooling who will make the potato chips?? Â Â If we go to a voucher system where the schools can make a profit, then schools for special needs kids will pop up left and right. Yes this would more than likely centralize the smart kids. Personally I think this is a good idea, as the smart kids will push each other, and classes will not have to be dumbed down for the kids that can't keep up. With vouchers, you could even have private vocational schools. If there is a profit in it, then the schools will be built. The cost of private education per student is lower than that of public education already, so it wouldn't cost any more than we are already paying to make these schools profitable. Why should my 8 year old that can read as well as 90% of high school seniors be held back from her learning experience because the kid that sits next to her in class doesn't get it? Plus, if we had a voucher program, parents would know how much of they are spending on educating their children, even if it is my tax dollars and not theirs that is paying for the voucher. This might motivate some of them to spend more time with their kids and their kid's education. Edited March 7, 2007 by Perchoutofwater Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yukon Cornelius Posted March 7, 2007 Share Posted March 7, 2007   Another option is simply to go back to the neighborhood schools. This would cut the cost of education significantly as it would do away with a great deal of the transportation costs we currently have. Reintroduce vocational classes into the schools. Rather than tracking kids which is a good idea but will never fly in this society, just have it to where if by high school, kids can't reach minimum academic levels force them into vocational programs. This puts some of the onus back on the parents. If they don't want their kids to go to vocational schools, then they need to spend more time with them and their education. i like this idea and always have Pay teachers based on merit not on tenure. this is a little tricky but if a system can be worked out im ok with it Give teachers and administrators back the rights to discipline their students that they had 25 or 30 years ago. this is a real need and part of the pansy syndrome i mentioned Do away with the Department of Education and get rid of the middle man when it comes to school funding. Get rid of teachers unions. Make it to where school districts are immune from lawsuits for failing a kid or not placing a kid in a program that the parents "feel" he/she should be in. this is a big big issue , not sure how to correct it  Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yukon Cornelius Posted March 7, 2007 Share Posted March 7, 2007 If we go to a voucher system where the schools can make a profit, then schools for special needs kids will pop up left and right. Yes this would more than likely centralize the smart kids. Personally I think this is a good idea, as the smart kids will push each other, and classes will not have to be dumbed down for the kids that can't keep up. With vouchers, you could even have private vocational schools. If there is a profit in it, then the schools will be built. The cost of private education per student is lower than that of public education already, so it wouldn't cost any more than we are already paying to make these schools profitable. Why should my 8 year old that can read as well as 90% of high school senior be held back from her learning experience because the kid that sits next to her in class doesn't get it? Plus, if we had a voucher program, parents would know how much of they are spending on educating their children, even if it is my tax dollars and not theirs that is paying for the voucher. This might motivate some of them to spend more time with their kids and their kid's education. Â the reason the private sector is cheaper has many reason but the biggest is they don't have to teach and care for handicapped, mentally challenged, ebd etc... and that sector of education is so under funded that there is no way they could turn a profit unless they just stick them in a room with some crayons and safety scissors... Â leaving a large section of the population under educated does not work, check you're history on the downfall of major civilizations.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perchoutofwater Posted March 7, 2007 Share Posted March 7, 2007 the reason the private sector is cheaper has many reason but the biggest is they don't have to teach and care for handicapped, mentally challenged, ebd etc... and that sector of education is so under funded that there is no way they could turn a profit unless they just stick them in a room with some crayons and safety scissors... Â leaving a large section of the population under educated does not work, check you're history on the downfall of major civilizations.... Â Â So, if your kid has a documented mental handicap, you increase the size of the voucher. That is basically what we are doing now anyway. Like you say we are currently spending more on these kids than we do on normal kids, so that they have smaller classes and more aides, not to mention special equipment etc... It would work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yukon Cornelius Posted March 7, 2007 Share Posted March 7, 2007 So, if your kid has a documented mental handicap, you increase the size of the voucher. That is basically what we are doing now anyway. Like you say we are currently spending more on these kids than we do on normal kids, so that they have smaller classes and more aides, not to mention special equipment etc... It would work. Â wheel the problem is that there is not enough money there for those kids but schools are mandated buy no child to do what is required.. so were do you think they get the money they need for them... they take it from the general ed programs... Â in 2000 they mandated all this stuff but didn't include the money for it......... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeeR Posted March 7, 2007 Share Posted March 7, 2007 The teachers unions as well as lawyers make it next to impossible to fire a teacher, particularly if they are a minority. You almost have to commit a felony to be fired. That being said the biggest problem with education in the parents of the students. They are not involved in their children's education, and then complain and threaten school districts with law suits if their child is failed. Corporal punishment has to be agreed to by the parents, and guess which parents kids are the trouble makers. Public education is a joke, but the main reason it is a joke is because most of the parents aren't involved, and the kids of those that are have to sit through class that are dumbed down for those who's parents don't care. It is a shame that we all must pay for others mistakes. Â Exactly. Â I know more than a few teachers who I consider at least reasonably objective, eg they will agree you can't point to just one thing and say "that's the problem" but almost every one feels very strongly that while bad teachers exist and they hate them being around as much as anyone, they are FAR less common than "bad" or out-of-control kids....which usually means bad parents (at least regarding school, discipline, etc). My brother in fact is a teacher and despite it being very hard to find a perm position, quit one a few years back because he said he spent about oh 90% of his time playing disciplinarian instead of actually teaching...but more often than not if he tried any "real" discipline (ie time outs, really leaning on the kid etc), the kids and/or parents whipped out the ol "I'll sue" bit. He also had several kids verbally threaten him including one regarding a knife threat, which he carried out - hey why not, kids w/weapons is all the rage (mistake btw - my brother is not a small guy and can defend himself. Later he said he would have done more than just disarm the little brat and bear-hug him up to the principal's office if he wasn't afraid of jail time) Â Let's see, we strip (shred?) teachers' authority and ability to maintain discipline, not to mention our society's growing dislike for discipline, accountability, and the destabilization of the family unit in general.....and public schools are a mess. Wow big surprise. Â Â PS I forget where I saw it but in a recent survey of (I think) Indians (ie from India, not Tonto) who on avg do far better than us in school, SATs, etc, they asked what they thought the single most important factor in their success was. When similar Americans were polled, most said some particular teacher etc. Â Most of the Indians said "hard work." Â Â A profession that everyone agrees is woefully underpaid and about to approach a level of need due to retirements that is ridiculous...and your going to ask a teacher that's been doing the job for 20 years to recertify, and when they balk, throw them out? Â In fairness, I think this is a bit exaggerated. For what they make for 9 or so months a year, it's not so terrible (near as I can tell anyway). And right or wrong, it's largely about supply and demand; many people love the idea of being a teacher and so are willing to work for less. If this weren't true, schools would pay more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perchoutofwater Posted March 7, 2007 Share Posted March 7, 2007 wheel the problem is that there is not enough money there for those kids but schools are mandated buy no child to do what is required.. so were do you think they get the money they need for them... they take it from the general ed programs... Â in 2000 they mandated all this stuff but didn't include the money for it......... Â Â The money would come from the money saved on transportation, as well as the fact that private schools cost less per normal student than public schools. That should more than make up the difference. Even if it doesn't I'd be for raising taxes to make the voucher system work though I don't see how it would be necessary. I'm not against putting money into education, I'm against throwing more money at an education system that doesn't work, and hasn't worked in 30 years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yukon Cornelius Posted March 7, 2007 Share Posted March 7, 2007 d. For what they make for 9 or so months a year, it's not so terrible (near as I can tell anyway). And right or wrong, it's largely about supply and demand; many people love the idea of being a teacher and so are willing to work for less. If this weren't true, schools would pay more. Â u lost all creditability right there Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeeR Posted March 7, 2007 Share Posted March 7, 2007 Democratic schools are interesting as they encourage involvement, AND don't differentiate by age. Anyone ever have expereince with them?PASS on the "don't differentiate by age" idea as schools aren't just about learning facts n figures but a social/emotional learning process as well. People should be among their peers as they develop. ie "John vs Suzy" DOES matter, in a way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeeR Posted March 7, 2007 Share Posted March 7, 2007 Well, I also talk about at least tripling their salaries. Teachers need to make as much as doctors, and it needs to become as hard to become one. Â Great in theory, bad in reality IMO. Then you'll have a lot of people in it for the $. The best teachers aren't necessarily the ones who have the most advanced degrees or test out well etc. ie you'd get more "slick" uncaring teachers. Again, the social/emotional aspects of the school environment thing. Doctors should have this, but don't really "need" it to do their thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yukon Cornelius Posted March 7, 2007 Share Posted March 7, 2007 The money would come from the money saved on transportation, as well as the fact that private schools cost less per normal student than public schools. That should more than make up the difference. Even if it doesn't I'd be for raising taxes to make the voucher system work though I don't see how it would be necessary. I'm not against putting money into education, I'm against throwing more money at an education system that doesn't work, and hasn't worked in 30 years. Â it may be different but up here it still works, probably because of a lot of things, but i will admit it needs to be tweaked, one of the reasons i don't work in a publicly funded school.. Â see im not sure you realize why private is cheaper, yeas some of it is upper management but a lot of it is because of the reasons i mentioned before... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeeR Posted March 7, 2007 Share Posted March 7, 2007 Nope. The world is full of Assholios and idiots, and I deal with most of them on a daily basis. Civil service? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeeR Posted March 7, 2007 Share Posted March 7, 2007 On the plus side, while only a small fraction of Caucasians, African-Americans and Hispanic-Americans are proficient at their schooling, the Asians are really whipping some academic ass at a high rate ... Â Racist. Â Actually referring to the poll I mentioned above it mighta been "Asian Americans" - I'll see if I can find it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skins Posted March 7, 2007 Share Posted March 7, 2007 I know why. Â Â Why? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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