Kid Cid Posted March 7, 2007 Share Posted March 7, 2007 (edited) PASS on the "don't differentiate by age" idea as schools aren't just about learning facts n figures but a social/emotional learning process as well. People should be among their peers as they develop. ie "John vs Suzy" DOES matter, in a way. Well, let me think. When we were growing up and the kids in the neighborhood would get together and play, there was about 13 kids that habitually got together. There was at least a 7 year age difference between the youngest and the oldest. It seems that the socialization process was alive and well here without grouping by age cohort. And since you mentioned peers, shouldn't kids have access to their intellectual peers as well as their emotional peers? In fact, if you were grouping by social/emotional maturity, then girls would be advanced about 2 years ahead of boys. So maybe grouping them by age is actually doing them a dis-service in this regard. As an aside, kids around here aren't allowed to play this way any more. All of their free time is filled with highly structured activities and play dates. Kids can't just go outside, draw up a baseball diamond using mailboxes and stones in the street and then get a game going. God forbid one of them gets hurt with no one responsible to sue over it. Edited March 7, 2007 by Kid Cid Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yukon Cornelius Posted March 7, 2007 Share Posted March 7, 2007 Well, let me think. When we were growing up and the kids in the neighborhood would get together and play, there was about 13 kids that habitually got together. There was at least a 7 year age difference between the youngest and the oldest. It seems that the socialization process was alive and well here without grouping by age cohort. And since you mentioned peers, shouldn't kids have access to their intellectual peers as well as their emotional peers? In fact, if you were grouping by social/emotional maturity, then girls would be advanced about 2 years ahead of boys. So maybe grouping them by age is actually doing them a dis-service in this regard. yup they do it other places were scores are much higher... they have it in elementary schools here in the midwest... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Red Posted March 7, 2007 Share Posted March 7, 2007 An under performing school in Maryland just canned everyone. Principals, teachers, lunch ladies, the lot. All can re-apply if they like, but they say you must currently be qualified. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kid Cid Posted March 7, 2007 Share Posted March 7, 2007 An under performing school in Maryland just canned everyone. Principals, teachers, lunch ladies, the lot. All can re-apply if they like, but they say you must currently be qualified. I just read that as caned and thought, "what a wonderful idea". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeeR Posted March 7, 2007 Share Posted March 7, 2007 Part of the problem with schools is there are no alternatives anymore for the dumb kids. Back in the day the dumb kids took the vocational classes with no intention of ever attending college. Now it seems that people think everyone should attend college. Some people just aren't college material. All men are not created equally, and I don't care what documents say that they are. I'll never run a 4.4 40 yard dash. I'll never have a 40" vertical jump. I suck at chemistry, but kick ass a physics and math. Until we realize that not everyone is the same, then we will continue to water down courses for those that can't keep up, giving them a false sense of hope, and holding back those that could excel. I busted my but it chemistry in college and ended up with a D in the one chemistry class I was required to take. Why was I required to take a chemistry? It had nothing to do with my field of study? In physics I took 3 courses in college and made A's in all three. We have kids taking courses that they are never going to use, who slow down the learning process of those that will use them. The integration of schools was and is a major problem with our education system. Before you go off and start calling me a racist, let me tell you the problem has very little to do with race. The problem is busing kids from all over BFE. If you have access to it, look at your local school districts budget, and see how much of it is taken up by transportation. The school district my wife works in has kids bused in from as far as 40 miles away, all so that back in the late 60's each district could have the proper proportion of minority students. The amount of money lost in the beaurocracy of our federal education system is disgusting. Rather than sending the money to Washington, to then pay a bean counter there to count it, have several people paid to sit on comities to decide how to spend it, and then send it back to the states, just let the states collect all the taxes and get rid of the Department of Education. Unions are another problem. They protect bad teachers plain and simple. My wife works with a teacher that broke several minor school rules. Mostly selling candy and what not to students in her classroom. When the principal confronted her about it she start cussing him out at the top of her lungs in the middle of the school day in front of students in the hallway. You would think she would have gotten fired, but no the union stepped in. By the time it was all said and done she kept her job because the union lawyer said she suffered from a chemical imbalance that was noted by a note from a physician, and that if she was fired they she would file suit against the school district. It is almost impossible to fire a teacher, particularly if he/she is a minority. I had an English teacher in high school that my mother substitute taught for. The nice teacher wanted to thank my mother for how well she did in her absence, so she wrote her a thank you note. The note was five sentences and in those five sentences there were 3 grammatical errors and two misspelled words. My mother took the not to the principal and the principal said he wished that he could do something about it, but that because she was a minority there would be hell to pay if he fired her. We also need to change how teachers are paid. Rather than paying the based on seniority pay them on performance. The administrator do a peer review with them twice a year, and know how well or how poorly they teach. Let the administrators determine teacher's salaries based on merit in lieu of on seniority. Still, the biggest problem is the parents. Parents need to be involved in their children's education. If they are then their children will do much better barring some mental disability. Parents also need to have realistic expectations of their children and realize that little Johnny may not be cut out to be a neurosurgeon. Parents need to give administrators back the right to discipline their children during the school day, and then if they get a call from the school saying little Johnny got a paddling, they need to paddle him again when he gets home from school. Edit to add: Another issue though smaller is all districts should have rules in place where the spouse or children of school board members and off campus administrators can not be teachers in that district. Wow you really want liberals to hate you, don't you Well said. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeeR Posted March 7, 2007 Share Posted March 7, 2007 there can be a whole lot of blame thrown there but the schools and school district should shoulder some of the blame... there wimps and wont stand up to the parents and change things... That's largely because it's not exactly rare for our brilliant gov't/court system to back the parents and an administrator can lose their job if they allow a kid to be failed (no matter how much they've earned it) or a teacher fired (likewise). Or sometimes maybe they're just tired of swimming upstream against it all. Not that a valid excuse per se, but it's not hard to understand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yukon Cornelius Posted March 7, 2007 Share Posted March 7, 2007 An under performing school in Maryland just canned everyone. Principals, teachers, lunch ladies, the lot. All can re-apply if they like, but they say you must currently be qualified. thats ok buy me but how can they be working if the don't have the qualifications??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perchoutofwater Posted March 7, 2007 Share Posted March 7, 2007 (edited) Regarding teacher pay. Some might find this interesting. The average teacher works 187 days a year in the state of Texas (I got this from the school calendar for my wife's district). Most people work 255 days a year. The average teachers salary in the state of Texas for the 2004-2005 school year was $44,615 (reference). If you divide that by 187 days a teacher works, that comes out to $238.583 per day. Now if you multiply $238.583 per day by 255 days the rest of us work you get a salary of $60,838. The Median Salary in the state of Texas is $51,000 (reference). So if a teacher were to work a full year like most people, their salary would be $9,838 more than the median salary or roughly 19% higher than the median salary. Also note that the teacher's salary was for the last school year and not this school year, where as the median Texas salary is current. Teacher got a raise in base pay this year, so in reality teacher pay is even higher than noted here. The point of this is to say that Teachers are not grossly underpaid. They are paid well above the median salary. To give you a comparison, an architect V in this area (which is the highest paid architect classification that is not a principal) has a median salary of $59,252. I don't think teachers are over paid. I think they earn every penny they get. That being said, it is ridiculous to say that they are underpaid. Edited March 7, 2007 by Perchoutofwater Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H8tank Posted March 7, 2007 Share Posted March 7, 2007 Hey BeeR, you should have attended a private school so you could learn things like honor, and lying. Yuke, who can teach kids better, and kids, private enterprise or the gov't? (leave money out of it) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yukon Cornelius Posted March 7, 2007 Share Posted March 7, 2007 Regarding teacher pay. Some might find this interesting. The average teacher works 187 days a year in the state of Texas (I got this from the school calendar for my wife's district). Most people work 255 days a year. The average teachers salary in the state of Texas for the 2004-2005 school year was $44,615 (reference). If you divide that by 187 days a teacher works, that comes out to $238.583 per day. Now if you multiply $238.583 per day by 255 days the rest of us work you get a salary of $60,838. The Median Salary in the state of Texas is $51,000 (reference). So if a teacher were to work a full year like most people, their salary would be $9,838 more than the median salary or roughly 19% higher than the median salary. The point of this is to say that Teachers are not grossly underpaid. They are paid well above the median salary. To give you a comparison, an architect V in this area (which is the highest paid architect classification that is not a principal) has a median salary of $59,252. I don't think teachers are over paid. I think they earn every penny they get. That being said, it is ridiculous to say that they are underpaid. how many hours does the average teacher work in a week??? how many hows does the average employee work in a week??? ive run the number out here before and teachers are not woefully under paid but they aren't getting 5 months off free every year ether... oh and im one thats all for year round school but good luck getting that 2 happen... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeeR Posted March 7, 2007 Share Posted March 7, 2007 Each one of those steps is yet another bandaid on a system that is failing in its current mission and will collapse in due time. It can't be fixed. I would say it "won't" vs it "can't" but the result is the same. IMO, no amount of patching will fix what ails education in this country. The entire system top to bottom needs to be blown up and replaced with something new. Like...... - We could just bail and go with private schools, but then poor people are hosed. - We could say everyone just "home school" but that's not feasible across the board because most homes have both parents (assuming both are still around) working. I think until our society gets back to real discipline and accountability and parents go back to actually being parents, it doesn't get better; in fact, probably worse. ie we're screwed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yukon Cornelius Posted March 7, 2007 Share Posted March 7, 2007 Hey BeeR, you should have attended a private school so you could learn things like honor, and lying. Yuke, who can teach kids better, and kids, private enterprise or the gov't? (leave money out of it) i would have to say right now, depending one were you live of course( here public ed is school as good as private) private would do better in most of the country, bun then were do the dregs go??? is it t=-cheaper to teach them and getting them into the work force or cheaper to put them in a cell... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wiegie Posted March 7, 2007 Share Posted March 7, 2007 - We could just bail and go with private schools, but then poor people are hosed. If you go with a voucher system, the poor people would very likely be getting screwed a whole lot less than they are now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeeR Posted March 7, 2007 Share Posted March 7, 2007 leaving a large section of the population under educated does not work, check you're history on the downfall of major civilizations.... ?? Start another thread on that, I'm curious but don't want to sidetrack on it here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeeR Posted March 7, 2007 Share Posted March 7, 2007 u lost all creditability right there Yes your counter points certainly tore my point apart. Well said. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spain Posted March 7, 2007 Author Share Posted March 7, 2007 If you go with a voucher system, the poor people would very likely be getting screwed a whole lot less than they are now. +1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yukon Cornelius Posted March 7, 2007 Share Posted March 7, 2007 If you go with a voucher system, the poor people would very likely be getting screwed a whole lot less than they are now. um no, if you have kids lining up for a school which ones are you going to take... if a number of kids leave a school what happens to that school. remember vouchers started in TEXAS, OUR TEXAS, OH HAIL THE MIGHTY STATE, TEXAS OUR TEXAS, SO WONDERFUL AND GREAT... and were a GW idea .... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yukon Cornelius Posted March 7, 2007 Share Posted March 7, 2007 Yes your counter points certainly tore my point apart. Well said. if you think teacher only work 9 months at 40 hours a week you have no street cred .. its that simple Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perchoutofwater Posted March 7, 2007 Share Posted March 7, 2007 how many hours does the average teacher work in a week??? how many hows does the average employee work in a week??? ive run the number out here before and teachers are not woefully under paid but they aren't getting 5 months off free every year ether... oh and im one thats all for year round school but good luck getting that 2 happen... 187 days is the number of days. I really don't know how many hours per day they work. My wife has to be at work by 8:00am and is rarely there after 4:00pm, and only had to bring home work during the end of six weeks grading period. My wife changed jobs now and is a department head and doesn't actually teach in the classroom this year, but does work part of the day in the star lab (remedial lab for special ed students). Prior to this year she had a 30 minute lunch and 1 1/2 hours of conference where she was only required to be available for one day out of 5 unless she actually had a conference scheduled. I'm sure some work more than others, but I doubt few work more than 8 hours a day unless they are involved in after school activities or athletics in which case I'm sure they get a stipend. Now I'll be the first to admit that stipends are a joke, but these activities are activities the teachers choose to volunteer for such as sponsoring a class or the student senate. Like I said earlier I'm not saying teachers are over paid, I'm just trying to dispel the myth that they are underpaid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeeR Posted March 7, 2007 Share Posted March 7, 2007 The point of this is to say that Teachers are not grossly underpaid. They are paid well above the median salary. To give you a comparison, an architect V in this area (which is the highest paid architect classification that is not a principal) has a median salary of $59,252. I don't think teachers are over paid. I think they earn every penny they get. That being said, it is ridiculous to say that they are underpaid. oh you just lost all credibility there giggle giggle etc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azazello1313 Posted March 7, 2007 Share Posted March 7, 2007 Not bad. How about the "Neutron Mama Accord?" i think atomic drives one of those Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pope Flick Posted March 7, 2007 Share Posted March 7, 2007 The point of this is to say that Teachers are not grossly underpaid. They are paid well above the median salary. To give you a comparison, an architect V in this area (which is the highest paid architect classification that is not a principal) has a median salary of $59,252. I don't think teachers are over paid. I think they earn every penny they get. That being said, it is ridiculous to say that they are underpaid. I think they ARE underpaid, given their responsibilites. Their responsiblities are not 'median' IMO, like maybe an IT tech guy or a body shop worker. It's a HUGH responsibility they are given. Moreso than getting you to properly turn off you hard drive or changing a car's oil. It is, in fact, a superlative position in society. Perch, if your wife is a good teacher I'd like to see her make MORE money and Josh Gordon out her not so good colleagues. Again, I think teachers are just as, if not more, important than doctors and would like to see it be as hard to become a teacher as it is a doctor. If the pay were better, even with harder requirements, we would have more people wanting to become teachers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yukon Cornelius Posted March 7, 2007 Share Posted March 7, 2007 Like I said earlier I'm not saying teachers are over paid, I'm just trying to dispel the myth that they are underpaid. who here said they were??? maybe i missed it ??? public school teacher here need to be in the school 1 hour before school starts and must stay one hour after school is out... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perchoutofwater Posted March 7, 2007 Share Posted March 7, 2007 I think they ARE underpaid, given their responsibilites. Their responsiblities are not 'median' IMO, like maybe an IT tech guy or a body shop worker. It's a HUGH responsibility they are given. Moreso than getting you to properly turn off you hard drive or changing a car's oil. It is, in fact, a superlative position in society. Perch, if your wife is a good teacher I'd like to see her make MORE money and Josh Gordon out her not so good colleagues. Again, I think teachers are just as, if not more, important than doctors and would like to see it be as hard to become a teacher as it is a doctor. If the pay were better, even with harder requirements, we would have more people wanting to become teachers. In Texas they make more than an electrical engineer for the number of days they work. An electrical engineer has some large responsibilities. If they screw up your building catches on fire and people die. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yukon Cornelius Posted March 7, 2007 Share Posted March 7, 2007 I think they ARE underpaid, given their responsibilites. Their responsiblities are not 'median' IMO, like maybe an IT tech guy or a body shop worker. It's a HUGH responsibility they are given. Moreso than getting you to properly turn off you hard drive or changing a car's oil. It is, in fact, a superlative position in society. Perch, if your wife is a good teacher I'd like to see her make MORE money and Josh Gordon out her not so good colleagues. Again, I think teachers are just as, if not more, important than doctors and would like to see it be as hard to become a teacher as it is a doctor. If the pay were better, even with harder requirements, we would have more people wanting to become teachers. shaping the yut of America isn't important.. the internet and tv can do that Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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