unions suck

[Skippy]

why don't you quit ford and go work for a company that makes sense to you and that you can be proud of?

Are you for real? Do you not think that his 15 years that he has vested with Ford mean something? Vacation time, seniority, maybe some pay raises for longevity. You don't just walk from these jobs once you have some time invested in them. I am sure you know that and didn't really mean what you said but who knows.

[Big Country]

I am a union employee of Ford Motor, and have been for going on 14 yrs., I have read this entire thread and agree that the two sides will never ever see eye to eye. But while I agree the health care issues are a killer for the big 3, and they complain how bad they have it and how many billions of dollars they lose each year, but yet they turn around and give their CEO's and other upper management 10's of millions of dollars in performance bonuses. Why should we take pay cuts so they can line their pockets??

 

How about some originality in the design dept also?? Why keep building a bigger SUV when it costs more to buy and even more to fuel?? Who is making these decisions?? These so called "engineers" who don't know a goddamn thing? And they get rewarded for this?? Believe me, there are MANY, MANY more problems in these companies, than just the unions. They are flawed from the top down. And it is a shame because these are what used to be part of the backbone of this country and who knows how much longer they will really last.

 

I don't want to get bashed for these insights, but it's just my opinion.

 

They make that kind of money because the board of directors feels they deserve it, and as the going rate for top level executives, a job that I dare say 99.99% of people could not do, they earn that money (for the most part, certainly there are exceptions to the rule).

[Yukon Cornelius]

why don't you quit ford and go work for a company that makes sense to you and that you can be proud of?

[Ursa Majoris]

They make that kind of money because the board of directors feels they deserve it, and as the going rate for top level executives, a job that I dare say 99.99% of people could not do, they earn that money (for the most part, certainly there are exceptions to the rule).

[Perchoutofwater]

Are you for real? Do you not think that his 15 years that he has vested with Ford mean something? Vacation time, seniority, maybe some pay raises for longevity. You don't just walk from these jobs once you have some time invested in them. I am sure you know that and didn't really mean what you said but who knows.

 

That is one of my problems with unions. Just because I guy has been there longer doesn't necessarily mean he is better than a guy that has been there a year, particularly if it is an assembly line job that is just doing the the same thing over an over. I would rather people get raises and perks based upon merit rather than how long they've been able to stay employed

 

If a guy is worth $30 an hour at company x, he will be worth $30 an hour at company y, and have comparable vacation and bennies. If a guy is payed $30 an hour at company x but his compensation is artificially inflated because of unions, then he most definitely will not be paid $30 per hour at company y. Why should wages be artificially inflated?

[Big Country]

 

So, I take it you could just walk into a Fortune 500 company and take over as CEO?

[tonorator]

Are you for real? Do you not think that his 15 years that he has vested with Ford mean something? Vacation time, seniority, maybe some pay raises for longevity. You don't just walk from these jobs once you have some time invested in them. I am sure you know that and didn't really mean what you said but who knows.

 

hey, he's the one who stated that his company is "flawed from the top down." he thinks his executives are overpaid and that the products they are producing have poor design and are not practical. so if he wants to continue to grind away years working in this environment to protect what seniority benefits he believes he has, so be it. most companies have done away with pure benefits based on seniority alone and are paying people for the skills they have and what they can contribute. if he has skills and can contribute on a high level, the market will reward this and he has a shot to work somewhere he can be proud of.

 

if he has no skills and is just holding on to the fact that he's shown up for many years, riding what that has provided him in terms of pay/benefits, then he definitely should not leave. in fact, he should try to not stand out at all because once someone realizes this, they will work to replace him with cheaper labor.

[Skippy]

Perch - you yourself said that you hire a guy at $10 an hour and shortly after that he gets a raise if he is doing well. That is the same thing. Loyal employee that has been there for a certain amount of time may get paid more for being loyal. That is not the case with my union job. I get paid by the level of my job. I bid to move up as does everyone else. You start today and make the same as the guy that has been here 30 years.

 

Up there I was just suggesting that that could have been possible. Not to mention that if you are on a job longer you often do get other preferences like maybe shift, or even particular job. I see nothing wrong with rewarding a loyal employee.

[Skippy]

tonorator - maybe it is just me in my small world but it would not be so easy for me to walk from my job even though I could make the same sort of money in any number of places. One thing that I have that some do not is a pretty nice enviroment to work in. I don't work in the elements all that often any longer. If I was to start over I may have to relocate. I would start at the bottom where I am now second from the top. I doubt that you work in a blue collar way otherwise some of this stuff would make a lot of sense to you. As it seems you work in a white collar enviroment where you may take your skills across the street and get the same sort of pay, etc. It is just not the case in this blue collar world that I live in.

[Yukon Cornelius]

So, I take it you could just walk into a Fortune 500 company and take over as CEO?

sure just like any joe could be a teacher... its ballbearings

 

i can play golf and cut jobs as well as anyone

[Yukon Cornelius]

I see nothing wrong with rewarding a loyal employee.

then u must not subscribe to the rights idea's of guest workers

[Skippy]

i can play golf and cut jobs as well as anyone

Now that is the job for me. Where do I sign up?

 

BTW - the best part of being a union guy is that you don't get fired for banging the bosses wife/daughter. Let me see the non-union shop where that guy doesn't get fired.

[Ursa Majoris]

So, I take it you could just walk into a Fortune 500 company and take over as CEO?

No, I was laughing at the Board of Directors reference.

[tonorator]

tonorator - maybe it is just me in my small world but it would not be so easy for me to walk from my job even though I could make the same sort of money in any number of places. One thing that I have that some do not is a pretty nice enviroment to work in. I don't work in the elements all that often any longer. If I was to start over I may have to relocate. I would start at the bottom where I am now second from the top. I doubt that you work in a blue collar way otherwise some of this stuff would make a lot of sense to you. As it seems you work in a white collar enviroment where you may take your skills across the street and get the same sort of pay, etc. It is just not the case in this blue collar world that I live in.

 

despite my white collar position, i can definitely relate to what you are talking about, since i've come from blue collar family and have a blue collar brother.

 

this is all about tradeoffs. if you don't like your company, your products, your management, etc., then you have to decide what it is worth to you to stay in that environment to protect what you like about your work or what benefits you have. white or blue, we all suck up a certain amount of bull to protect what we have. at some point, however, we all also have our breaking points and if someone is that frustrated with their company, then i say get off your ass and go find a good one. they are out there. you might be a notch or two down to start over, or lose a bene or two, but overall you could end up much happier. i'd rather invest my energy in this vs. joining a union, striking, going to union meetings, paying union dues, etc.

[Perchoutofwater]

Perch - you yourself said that you hire a guy at $10 an hour and shortly after that he gets a raise if he is doing well. That is the same thing. Loyal employee that has been there for a certain amount of time may get paid more for being loyal. That is not the case with my union job. I get paid by the level of my job. I bid to move up as does everyone else. You start today and make the same as the guy that has been here 30 years.

 

Up there I was just suggesting that that could have been possible. Not to mention that if you are on a job longer you often do get other preferences like maybe shift, or even particular job. I see nothing wrong with rewarding a loyal employee.

 

It has nothing to do with loyalty, it has to do with whether or not they are willing to work. When I say they get a raise shortly after being hired, I'm talking about within a couple of weeks to a month after being hired. Our problem is so many people just don't want to work. If someone shows me or one of my field supervisors that they are willing to work then they get a raise within the first month. If they don't then they are fired.

[Skippy]

It has nothing to do with loyalty, it has to do with whether or not they are willing to work. When I say they get a raise shortly after being hired, I'm talking about within a couple of weeks to a month after being hired. Our problem is so many people just don't want to work. If someone shows me or one of my field supervisors that they are willing to work then they get a raise within the first month. If they don't then they are fired.

I accept that but that is no different than my union shop. You get hired and need to do your job. If you are not doing your job as expected you will be sent back to the hall. The union protects your rights, your work conditions, pay, and stuff like that. I have never seen the union try to make the company keep a guy that wasn't doing a good job. We face bi-weekly elvautions. Our work is top notch and I would not let a union brother do less than a top notch job as it looks bad on all of us.

[Yukon Cornelius]

I accept that but that is no different than my union shop. You get hired and need to do your job. If you are not doing your job as expected you will be sent back to the hall. The union protects your rights, your work conditions, pay, and stuff like that. I have never seen the union try to make the company keep a guy that wasn't doing a good job. We face bi-weekly elvautions. Our work is top notch and I would not let a union brother do less than a top notch job as it looks bad on all of us.

i here yah but the auto industry is way different... i have 1 buddy still working at ford and 3 that are gone... they have some major horror stories about the union bringing guys back or keeping them on....

[rocknrobn26]

Unions use the bucket of $hit theory.....if 51% vote to stand in a bucket of $hit then everyone stands in a bucket of $hit. All rules are voted on and accepted or rejected by a majority rules. Don't like that, don't take a union job.

For those of you who have never been in a union, this can be hard to fathom, but it is what it is! A UNION!

The union IS the people.

It's not a buffet, where you want this but don't want that. Things are presented prioritized by the people, a package-prep committee then usually decides and prioritizes (According to the material presented by the people), and the negotiating committee then presents this to the powers-that-be. They take, demand, and reject until a resolution is met. Period. The people then vote and if 51% agree, you have a new contract, if not it's back to the table. If they are stalled, the people vote on a strike option. If the people vote 51% for a strike, then the nego comm has the right to call a strike.

I have been in unions since 1967. I have been on negotiating teams, package prep committees, union rep on company wide/faculty wide committees, etc.. I have voted for things I really personally didn't want and against things I did, and of course vice versa. All due to the majority. I have never been happy w/ every resolve, but that's the nature of the beast!

And as skippy said, the union does not protect slackers. Due process, safety, work conditions, etc.. Hell, I was even party to firing a guy.

 

Yuke,

If union members are brought back and replace others.....I'll guarantee.... IT'S IN THE CONTRACT!

[Yukon Cornelius]

Yuke,

If union members are brought back and replace others.....I'll guarantee.... IT'S IN THE CONTRACT!

yup it was always in the reup to bring back the guys that were sacked.... drove the guys that actually worked crazy...

 

and ford u could take 5 days off every so often without even letting them know you were not coming in

 

that had as many as 25 guys extra on a night to cover no shows

 

hay im pro union but that is just crazy... and im glad i didnt take the job they offered me at the stpaul ford plant....

[Jumbie]

Unions use the bucket of $hit theory.....if 51% vote to stand in a bucket of $hit then everyone stands in a bucket of $hit. All rules are voted on and accepted or rejected by a majority rules. Don't like that, don't take a union job.

For those of you who have never been in a union, this can be hard to fathom, but it is what it is! A UNION!

The union IS the people.

It's not a buffet, where you want this but don't want that. Things are presented prioritized by the people, a package-prep committee then usually decides and prioritizes (According to the material presented by the people), and the negotiating committee then presents this to the powers-that-be. They take, demand, and reject until a resolution is met. Period. The people then vote and if 51% agree, you have a new contract, if not it's back to the table. If they are stalled, the people vote on a strike option. If the people vote 51% for a strike, then the nego comm has the right to call a strike.

I have been in unions since 1967. I have been on negotiating teams, package prep committees, union rep on company wide/faculty wide committees, etc.. I have voted for things I really personally didn't want and against things I did, and of course vice versa. All due to the majority. I have never been happy w/ every resolve, but that's the nature of the beast!

And as skippy said, the union does not protect slackers. Due process, safety, work conditions, etc.. Hell, I was even party to firing a guy.

 

Yuke,

If union members are brought back and replace others.....I'll guarantee.... IT'S IN THE CONTRACT!

 

I count on this mentality when negotiating on behalf of management. All I need to do is tailor my proposals to appeal to 51% of the sheep. Let's take wages, for example, if we have a bargaining unit of 100, all we need to do is offer wage increases that will benefit 51% of the employees. That way, I know that the contract will get ratified. Because, of course, the 51% is going to vote in favor of their own wage increases. It's almost too easy.

 

Your theory is internally contradictory. On one hand you say that it is a UNION, implying that it is all for one and one for all. But, then you contradict yourself by admitting that it is majority rule. The later is more accurate. The 51% can screw the rest. On my side of the table, we count on this selfish attitude.

[joeyc]

hey, he's the one who stated that his company is "flawed from the top down." he thinks his executives are overpaid and that the products they are producing have poor design and are not practical. so if he wants to continue to grind away years working in this environment to protect what seniority benefits he believes he has, so be it. most companies have done away with pure benefits based on seniority alone and are paying people for the skills they have and what they can contribute. if he has skills and can contribute on a high level, the market will reward this and he has a shot to work somewhere he can be proud of.

 

if he has no skills and is just holding on to the fact that he's shown up for many years, riding what that has provided him in terms of pay/benefits, then he definitely should not leave. in fact, he should try to not stand out at all because once someone realizes this, they will work to replace him with cheaper labor.

 

First of all, I never stated my company was "flawed from the top down", not in as many words at least. What I said was they have more important things to address than my pay, such as product viability, etc.

 

Second, I don't see where you get off assuming I have no skills. Let's see you do my job. You probably sit on your arse all day behind a desk and make decisions without having a clue how to do the job that your choices directly effect. I am proud of my company and am proud to be a UAW member for the last 13 1/2 yrs. If it gets so bad that I need to look for another job, than so be it, I'm not worried about my "skills" . I am well paid now because of them.

[Beaumont]

No, I was laughing at the Board of Directors reference.

 

As well you should ...

[tonorator]

flawed from the top down

 

First of all, I never stated my company was "flawed from the top down", not in as many words at least.

 

[tonorator]

Second, I don't see where you get off assuming I have no skills. Let's see you do my job. You probably sit on your arse all day behind a desk and make decisions without having a clue how to do the job that your choices directly effect. I am proud of my company and am proud to be a UAW member for the last 13 1/2 yrs. If it gets so bad that I need to look for another job, than so be it, I'm not worried about my "skills" . I am well paid now because of them.

 

then quit biatching, you were the one bashing your employer, ford, in your post. and i never assumed you had no skills, i was talking hypothetically.

[rocknrobn26]

I count on this mentality when negotiating on behalf of management. All I need to do is tailor my proposals to appeal to 51% of the sheep. Let's take wages, for example, if we have a bargaining unit of 100, all we need to do is offer wage increases that will benefit 51% of the employees. That way, I know that the contract will get ratified. Because, of course, the 51% is going to vote in favor of their own wage increases. It's almost too easy.

 

Your theory is internally contradictory. On one hand you say that it is a UNION, implying that it is all for one and one for all. But, then you contradict yourself by admitting that it is majority rule. The later is more accurate. The 51% can screw the rest. On my side of the table, we count on this selfish attitude.

 

You are talking like an ass! If you truly negotiate like that, any bargaining team I have ever been on would nail you to the wall! Your pompous attitude could be seen by a blind man. And your credibility would be naught!

You have no idea what the other side wants. Unless your dealing w/ dolts. In that case you may be successful but then my dog could nego that. Your statements are laughable at best if not.

In the last ten years of my participating on nego teams Salary was #3 at best! :boom: :goodbye:

I never said that is a one for all! I did say it's a majority! There is no contradiction in my comments.

51% is the minimum. I never saw a contract passed by less than 80%! You know why??? We did our job.

I wish I could have sat across from the table w/ you. We would have chewed you up and spit you out before you could have yelled MAMA, with an attitude like that.

You act as if you know ALL about the other side! Believe me, man, you don't. At least w/ the bargaining teams, both sides, that I've been on.

What you say sounds good on a website chat area, but get the facts straight before you speak.

You want to discuss this further, PM me your phone number, and we'll talk. Or do you need an audience to spew your crap?

Your post is a joke!

Why I waste time on these ludicrous posts is beyond me, especially when my FF teams are falling apart like a Hong Kong suit.

PM me or shut up.