unions suck

[Pope Flick]

I won't argue that the attorney is getting screwed, although the one that I speak of makes six figures and can afford supplemental insurance.

 

Why should workers with NO SKILLS AT ALL expect their employer to provide free healthcare? Or any benefits at all? Since when did working a check-out counter at a grocery store become a career and a main source of income, rather than a second job or a part-time job for high school kids or senior citizens? I don't see why an employer is expected to provide $1,000 worth of benefits a month to a worker who doesn't have any special skills whatsoever.

 

 

At the risk of sounding like a squichy liberal there are several very good reasons. California had their grocery workers strike a few years back, and health reasons were one of the areas in contention.

 

Basically, nobody in society is well served by an underclass that works 40 hours a week and has to spend it all on items such as health care. Many would choose to NOT get insurance which basically hands us the bill for their emergency room visit. Unskilled laborers also serve an important function: they buy goods. Disposable goods. This has the net effect of placing their money back into the economy which keeps OTHER people gainfully employed: CDs, movie tickets, clothing purchases etc. OK, so they don't place their money into 401k's and keep financial people busy but they keep other people busy through their purchases and that is GOOD FOR EVERYONE. The depression began when people working at car plants couldn't afford cars or refridgerators but companies kept making them until the stock swelled to the point that skilled workers were laid off due to HUGH surplus.

 

I'd like to hear a good reason why people should be denied helth care benefits at their place of employment in this day and age, without a downthenose attitude of 'they have no skill so F 'em.'

[Bill Swerski]

At the risk of sounding like a squichy liberal there are several very good reasons. California had their grocery workers strike a few years back, and health reasons were one of the areas in contention.

 

Basically, nobody in society is well served by an underclass that works 40 hours a week and has to spend it all on items such as health care.

 

Nobody in society is well-served by an underclass of unskilled workers in general. These jobs should be temporary get-me-by positions, not long-term careers.

 

I understand what you're saying about cutting down on emergency room costs (a BIG problem right now), but all that's doing is shifting the burden of payment to other people. When Safeway decides to provide healthcare for all of its employees, the money doesn't come out of thin air. They raise prices and/or they lay off people.

 

I'd like to hear a good reason why people should be denied helth care benefits at their place of employment in this day and age, without a downthenose attitude of 'they have no skill so F 'em.'

 

I see detlef lurking in this thread and I imagine that he has a good answer for this. I'm guessing that he doesn't pay $1,000/month in health benefits to the immigrants who wash dishes in his kitchen.

Edited September 27, 2007 by Bill Swerski

[Skippy]

I can not see the reason why would say that an unskilled worker does not deserve health care. That same working person is providing a service that is needed. We need people to stock the store, we need people to clean the toilet. We need people dig the ditch, we need people to tighten the screw on the assembly line. If that same working is loyal and does a good job no matter what the level of skill he deserves reasonable compensation.

 

My boy loads trucks for UPS for about 3.5 hours a day. He busts his ass but the truth is the only skill it takes is some muscle and knowing how to load a truck. Not the most difficult thing to learn or do. UPS gives him better benefits than I get and I don't have a problem with that.

 

Anyone that owns a business is going to love to have that cheap employee that he can pay $10 and hour with no benefits but how loyal is that guy going to be? That guy is going to always be looking for something better. Pay him $17 an hour and give him some reasonable benefits and you can probably train him to be a lifelong employee.

[Pope Flick]

Nobody in society is well-served by an underclass of unskilled workers in general. These jobs should be temporary get-me-by positions, not long-term careers.

 

I understand what you're saying about cutting down on emergency room costs (a BIG problem right now), but all that's doing is shifting the burden of payment to other people. When Safeway decides to provide healthcare for all of its employees, the money doesn't come out of thin air. They raise prices and/or they lay off people.

 

 

Oh no doubt, and at the risk of sounding callous, there's probably a threshhold somewhere to the point that if Safeway has to lay off 1/4 (or whatever) of it's workforce so that the other 3/4 can get benefits it is better for eveeryone as a whole, even though that 25% is screwed for some time until they get back onto their feet.

[Pope Flick]

My boy loads trucks for UPS for about 3.5 hours a day. He busts his ass but the truth is the only skill it takes is some muscle and knowing how to load a truck. Not the most difficult thing to learn or do. UPS gives him better benefits than I get and I don't have a problem with that.

 

 

I did that to pay my way through school. He busts his ass long enough, they'll take him on as a temp driver (or Holiday driver help) and get a nice pay bump. Sounds like he works loading the semis that go across country. I went from that, to the pre-load morning shift (same hours only 4-8am) then to driver where I stayed for about 16 months before bolting for Cali.

 

You know what else that type of job does? Teaches you the value of busting your ass. How much is that worth to him and to society?

Edited September 27, 2007 by Pope Flick

[Big Country]

I can not see the reason why would say that an unskilled worker does not deserve health care. That same working person is providing a service that is needed. We need people to stock the store, we need people to clean the toilet. We need people dig the ditch, we need people to tighten the screw on the assembly line. If that same working is loyal and does a good job no matter what the level of skill he deserves reasonable compensation.

 

My boy loads trucks for UPS for about 3.5 hours a day. He busts his ass but the truth is the only skill it takes is some muscle and knowing how to load a truck. Not the most difficult thing to learn or do. UPS gives him better benefits than I get and I don't have a problem with that.

 

Anyone that owns a business is going to love to have that cheap employee that he can pay $10 and hour with no benefits but how loyal is that guy going to be? That guy is going to always be looking for something better. Pay him $17 an hour and give him some reasonable benefits and you can probably train him to be a lifelong employee.

 

First, kudos to your boy for getting a decent job.

 

Now, for the latter part, I suppose if it is the type of job that someone can do with very little training, it is much more cost efficient to pay someone $10 an hour even if it means high rotation in the position. If it is a bit more difficult of a job that requires some training/experience, then you definitely want to put together a compensation package that will retain workers, but, at the same point, you can't make it so lucrative that you can not pass the assosciated cost increase on to your customers. It does no good to pay people $17/hour and bennies and go under if you can pay someone $10 and no bennies and get the same work done.

[rocknrobn26]

As usual ,with threads like this, I'm getting pissed at the ignorance/pompousness I see!

Workers in non-skilled jobs are/should be temporary?

Workers in non-skilled jobs don't deserve health insurance, but a lawyer should?

Jobs like clerks, cashiers, etc. are temporary?

 

Try being 50+, out of a job, cause you're too old? You still have kids, have to pay a mortgage, and your field is over saturated w/ younger, eager to work for crap, types! Dam...too many of my friends had to take those jobs. Some ended up w/ a new job, in their field, but at a drastically reduced salary. Others have no options and have to work those non-skilled jobs. They still need health insurance. And if they didn't, you pompous jackasses would be complaining about how they used the e-room to get around it! Dammit, give them credit for at least working and staying off the state dole! If they can unionize, more power to them. If they can coerce the "Big Boys" to part w/ their profiteering, more power to them.

"Let them eat cake!" Don't pull my dick! You need these people Is it a career? To some YES. It's all they have.

 

Maybe I'm wrong, but my dad taught me how to see a skill in unskilled labor. The ability to do their job in an almost artistic/effortless way. Watch a life long janitor, assembly line worker, a GOOD cashier. It is poetry in motion. Get a job, master a job, and live w/the job. But fight for what is just.

 

SUPERCALIFRAGILISTICEXPIALIDOCIOUS !!!!!!!! Get your heads out of your ass! These people are at least working! Scraping, but tryin'.

[whoopazz]

Wow, RR needs a hug. I'll add my My dad, God rest his soul, was an uneducated laborer that ended up working 25 years for the US Postal Service. Dad has been gone for 22 years now, but Mom still gets the federal health insurance and pension check every month. I love it, but we all know the gubmit can't afford this, let alone private corporations with international competition.

 

Just sayin'.

[rocknrobn26]

Wow, RR needs a hug. I'll add my My dad, God rest his soul, was an uneducated laborer that ended up working 25 years for the US Postal Service. Dad has been gone for 22 years now, but Mom still gets the federal health insurance and pension check every month. I love it, but we all know the gubmit can't afford this, let alone private corporations with international competition.

 

Just sayin'.

 

hey, babe.....He earned it! My mom gets $900/month, because, back when a corporation could buy another, liquidate the assets (pensions, etc), and screw every employee! All she gets is SS. My dad worked 35 years for a company that promised him a lot. He got nothing after they were bought out. He died 35 years ago. It's amazing how my mom survives. But I am here for her and a subsidy to her is short coming.

 

A hug? Maybe. Everyone can use one!

Edited September 28, 2007 by rocknrobn26

[Skippy]

As usual ,with threads like this, I'm getting pissed at the ignorance/pompousness I see!

Workers in non-skilled jobs are/should be temporary?

Workers in non-skilled jobs don't deserve health insurance, but a lawyer should?

Jobs like clerks, cashiers, etc. are temporary?

 

Try being 50+, out of a job, cause you're too old? You still have kids, have to pay a mortgage, and your field is over saturated w/ younger, eager to work for crap, types! Dam...too many of my friends had to take those jobs. Some ended up w/ a new job, in their field, but at a drastically reduced salary. Others have no options and have to work those non-skilled jobs. They still need health insurance. And if they didn't, you pompous jackasses would be complaining about how they used the e-room to get around it! Dammit, give them credit for at least working and staying off the state dole! If they can unionize, more power to them. If they can coerce the "Big Boys" to part w/ their profiteering, more power to them.

"Let them eat cake!" Don't pull my dick! You need these people Is it a career? To some YES. It's all they have.

 

Maybe I'm wrong, but my dad taught me how to see a skill in unskilled labor. The ability to do their job in an almost artistic/effortless way. Watch a life long janitor, assembly line worker, a GOOD cashier. It is poetry in motion. Get a job, master a job, and live w/the job. But fight for what is just.

 

SUPERCALIFRAGILISTICEXPIALIDOCIOUS !!!!!!!! Get your heads out of your ass! These people are at least working! Scraping, but tryin'.

Amen!

[aqualung]

Why do you even try bros?

 

They don't understand or will they ever.

 

You know what gets me/ One of their argument is that the union supports the lazy person. But I am betting that a lot of the people on this board are making a lot more than union wages and are screwing their employers every day posting here.

[AtomicCEO]

I'm not against unions in general, but some of their demands are absolutely ridiculous. I was buying groceries at Safeway earlier this year and the checkout people were wearing buttons saying something about their union wanting full healthcare benefits. I asked my checkout lady what that was all about and she said that Safeway is currently ONLY paying out like 50% or 70% of their benefits and that they have to pay for the rest of it out of pocket.

 

Can you believe that crap? A freaking high school kid could do their jobs, and they want their employer to pay their healthcare benefits IN FULL. Most people with advanced degrees and actual skills don't get those benefits!

 

If it's so easy a high school kid could do it then why don't they exclusively hire non-union high school kids?

 

That seems like such a simple solution. You shouldn't even need to argue against the union.

[rocknrobn26]

Why do you even try bros?

 

They don't understand or will they ever.

 

You know what gets me/ One of their argument is that the union supports the lazy person. But I am betting that a lot of the people on this board are making a lot more than union wages and are screwing their employers every day posting here.

 

You are right, but as an ex-teacher/Professor Emerita, I always feel the need to educate the unlearned. My bad!

I think i made an allusion to that in a previous post, but I'm glad you caught it! Not too many cashiers, baggers, clerks, et al in "TEMPORARY JOBS" can post most of the working day.

Good post, Aqua! Bro!

[Ursa Majoris]

Wow, RR needs a hug. I'll add my My dad, God rest his soul, was an uneducated laborer that ended up working 25 years for the US Postal Service. Dad has been gone for 22 years now, but Mom still gets the federal health insurance and pension check every month. I love it, but we all know the gubmit can't afford this, let alone private corporations with international competition.

 

Just sayin'.

Worth noting that the reason a lot of people stayed in jobs that didn't pay a great deal was the payoff at the end. So, it didn't cost that much to employ them, didn't cost squat to replace them - they never left because they were working towards the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow.

 

Check out our military - will we take their pensions away? They never earned a fortune in their careers but stuck it out for the end result.

 

Bottom line - don't rat on people who've spent their lives working for you on the understanding of what came later.

 

Oh, BTW, the GM CEO earned $8.5m in 2005. That doesn't seem excessive in this day and age.

The head of United Health earned $125m the same year. How many people could have health insurance for that? Answer: roughly 10,000.

[Bill Swerski]

I can not see the reason why would say that an unskilled worker does not deserve health care. That same working person is providing a service that is needed. We need people to stock the store, we need people to clean the toilet. We need people dig the ditch, we need people to tighten the screw on the assembly line. If that same working is loyal and does a good job no matter what the level of skill he deserves reasonable compensation.

 

I can not see the reason why you would say that workers are entitled to free health care from their employers simply because they have a job. Does this mean that restaurants need to give $1,000 a month in benefits to their dishwashers and busboys?

 

I don't think that ANYBODY deserves health benefits form their employer. That's for the market to determine.

 

My boy loads trucks for UPS for about 3.5 hours a day. He busts his ass but the truth is the only skill it takes is some muscle and knowing how to load a truck. Not the most difficult thing to learn or do. UPS gives him better benefits than I get and I don't have a problem with that.

 

That's great. If UPS wants to give him a higher salary and better benefits to keep him over the long term, then good for him. But other employers shouldn't be crucified for operating under a different business model.

 

Anyone that owns a business is going to love to have that cheap employee that he can pay $10 and hour with no benefits but how loyal is that guy going to be? That guy is going to always be looking for something better. Pay him $17 an hour and give him some reasonable benefits and you can probably train him to be a lifelong employee.

 

I don't necessarily agree with that. I can't speak of your son's job, but many of these low-skill positions have inherent high turnover because they're not the most exciting or well-paying jobs in the world... and some of them just plain suck. How many kids dream of one day being a cashier at McDonald's or a greeter at Wal-Mart? Many of these jobs are treated as temporary. One can hardly blame for an employer for not giving full health benefits to an employee who may only stay there for four or five months.

Edited September 28, 2007 by Bill Swerski

[rocknrobn26]

How many kids dream of one day being a cashier at McDonald's or a greeter at Wal-Mart? Many of these jobs are treated as temporary. One can hardly blame for an employer for not giving full health benefits to an employee who may only stay there for four or five months.

 

Most don't dream of it, but due to many circumstances are forced to live w/ it.

[Jumbie]

If it's so easy a high school kid could do it then why don't they exclusively hire non-union high school kids?

 

That seems like such a simple solution. You shouldn't even need to argue against the union.

 

You really don't have a clue how it works. If a union previously won an election in a workplace and was certified as the bargaining representative, the employer can't just hire "non-union high school kids." Well, not without committing an unfair labor practice and getting dragged before the NLRB.

 

When the union becomes the certified bargaining representative in a workplace, they represent a designated group of employees called the bargaining unit. The unit is described in the election petition and in the collective bargaining agreement. In the grocery store context, it might read, "XYZ union is the exclusive bargaining representative for all hourly employees performing checkout, stockroom and general maintenance, excluding supervisory, managerial and confidential employees."

 

If the store hires any employees to perform any of the jobs listed, those employees have to be in the union. So, the store can't simply hire high school kids to do these same jobs on a non-union basis.

 

Look...my theory is that if a company gets a union, they usually deserve it. If a company treats its employees right and offers decent wages and benefits, the employees won't have a desire to fork over their hard earned money in dues for a union they don't need.

 

One last point, and it is a politcal one. Health care is a huge (sorry, hugh on this board) problem. I might be stereo-typing, but my sense is that a large portion of the so-called blue collar, unionized workforce also tend to be republicans. Yet, the republicans are the same folks who argue against a universal health care program. Makes no sense to me.

[Ursa Majoris]

One last point, and it is a politcal one. Health care is a huge (sorry, hugh on this board) problem. I might be stereo-typing, but my sense is that a large portion of the so-called blue collar, unionized workforce also tend to be republicans. Yet, the republicans are the same folks who argue against a universal health care program. Makes no sense to me.

Might be true but probably more of a split.

 

What is funny is Bill Swerski arguing against employers having to provide health insurance when he regularly supports a system that is totally based on employer-provided health insurance, to avoid "socialized medicine". This is the same Bill that complains about people freeloading on the ER and driving up health insurance rates. What else are they supposed to do?

[Skippy]

Look...my theory is that if a company gets a union, they usually deserve it. If a company treats its employees right and offers decent wages and benefits, the employees won't have a desire to fork over their hard earned money in dues for a union they don't need. I actually agree with this. I know of a few companies that I would work for in a non union manner if I was not already where I am. Some people do actually do right by their people but I find that to be rare.

 

One last point, and it is a politcal one. Health care is a huge (sorry, hugh on this board) problem. I might be stereo-typing, but my sense is that a large portion of the so-called blue collar, unionized workforce also tend to be republicans. Yet, the republicans are the same folks who argue against a universal health care program. Makes no sense to me.I don't think this stereo type is correct. Around PA. the strong blue collar are no way Republican.

[Yukon Cornelius]

Nobody in society is well-served by an underclass of unskilled workers in general.

 

u sir are an idiot ..... who will make youre espresso and anal lube

Why do you even try bros?

 

They don't understand or will they ever.

 

You know what gets me/ One of their argument is that the union supports the lazy person. But I am betting that a lot of the people on this board are making a lot more than union wages and are screwing their employers every day posting here.

wurd

[Bill Swerski]

Might be true but probably more of a split.

 

What is funny is Bill Swerski arguing against employers having to provide health insurance when he regularly supports a system that is totally based on employer-provided health insurance, to avoid "socialized medicine". This is the same Bill that complains about people freeloading on the ER and driving up health insurance rates. What else are they supposed to do?

 

 

Employers don't have to provide crap outside of a minimum wage and a safe work environment. The fact that the majority of them provide at least partial health insurance is a good thing and their decision to do so is driven by the market. If Employer X won't offer it, they'll lose workers to Employer Y. While I don't have the solution to America's health care problem, I find that system better a lot better than Hillary's "people who are skilled and work hard must support people who aren't and don't" plan.

Edited September 28, 2007 by Bill Swerski

[Bill Swerski]

Most don't dream of it, but due to many circumstances are forced to live w/ it.

 

I understand that. And it's a shame, but you're always going to have poor people. That's why we have Medicaid.

 

Also, I was not trying to say earlier that attorneys are "more deserving" of health care than grocery store cashiers. My point was that employer-provided health insurance is pretty much a given for the highly-skilled and that it is not for those without significant skills.

[Ursa Majoris]

 

Employers don't have to provide crap outside of a minimum wage and a safe work environment. The fact that the majority of them provide at least partial health insurance is a good thing and their decision to do so is driven by the market. If Employer X won't offer it, they'll lose workers to Employer Y. While I don't have the solution to America's health care problem, I find that system better a lot better than Hillary's "people who are skilled and work hard must support people who aren't and don't" plan.

So how do you square your opposition to low paid workers driving up health insurance premiums by using the ER with your opposition to companies having to pay health benefits?

 

And what happens if employers drop health insurance en masse, as some are beginning to do?

[Bill Swerski]

So how do you square your opposition to low paid workers driving up health insurance premiums by using the ER with your opposition to companies having to pay health benefits?

 

Most companies do pay health benefits, as there's obviously a strong demand for it. But I don't believe that it's an entitlement.

 

And what happens if employers drop health insurance en masse, as some are beginning to do?

 

Employees will eventually leave those positions for ones that provide better benefits. There's always going to be a demand for it.

 

Like I said before, I don't have all of the solutions. But I'd look at ways to drive down costs, rather than taxing the crap out of the middle class and sending the economy into the abyss.

[Perchoutofwater]

Not whack at all. Unless things have changed, OSHA sets rules, they no longer do spot inspections for no cause, they investigate ONLY if there is a logged complaint, or if there is a "Lost Time Accident" or death. A lost time accident is defined as not returning to work the next day. As I said, this may have changed. In one sweat shop I worked for, a guy broached 2 finger tips off. He went to the e-room. The shop super convinced the guy to come back the next day and just sit and do very light work(actually he just sat all day). No report was needed, OSHA was never contacted, it was considered no worse than asking for a bandaid. As I said this was a long time ago (when OSHA was stricter) and things may have changed.

 

Things have changed. OSHA does spot inspections all the time. They actually patrol similar to police. They will drive by projects, and if they see anything that appears questionable they will stop and do a full inspection, without ever having been called with a complaint, or having lost time paper work being filed.