GM Offers to Buyout Union Workers

[Skippy]

My how short the memories are regarding unions. Without unions we'd be living in China. You really want that? You want to work 7 days a week 12 hours a day in a sweat shop earning a pittance to spend at the company store? Of course some unions have overstepped their bounds. But to dismiss all the positives that unions have ushered into this country regarding decent pay, worker safety, environmental protections, and consumer protections is pretty myopic. Just the threat of unions also keeps many non-union businesses honest when dealing with employees as well.

And the most truthful post thus far. It shocks me that people can't see this. It shocks me that people that are doing pretty well in a non union shop don't realize what got them where they are.

 

I wish I could stay out of these train wrecks but I just can't help myself.

[Jimmy Neutron]

The Toyota facility in Georgetown KY pays line workers alot more than that. I have a cousin who has been there for 7 years and is pulling down over $32 an hour on the line. Starting wages are in the low-mid $20s I believe. Around central Kentucky, getting a job at Toyota is like winning the lottery. Of course, they put people through several rounds of testing before they are hired - they don't take idiots. (Not that the big 3 are staffed by a bunch of morons on the line.)

 

That's certainly news to me. A docudrama I watched on the big three used a Toyota plant for comparison and said the average assembly worker earned $15-18/hr.

 

Even assuming that the non-union empoyees are getting paid more per hour in wages, what is the difference in benefits and other non-cash compensation. That could be as much a factor as the actual cash compensation.

 

That's another important part of the equation. I read a stat somewhere that every GM car had several thousand dollars baked into the cost just for retiree health care??? Hard for the Malibu to come in at the same price point as the Accord.

[AtomicCEO]

overruled

 

You didn't actually read my post, and replied with something that supported my argument. You're not bright.

 

Even assuming that the non-union empoyees are getting paid more per hour in wages, what is the difference in benefits and other non-cash compensation. That could be as much a factor as the actual cash compensation.

 

Valid question. I do not know the answer to that.

[I Like Soup]

My how short the memories are regarding unions. Without unions we'd be living in China. You really want that? You want to work 7 days a week 12 hours a day in a sweat shop earning a pittance to spend at the company store? Of course some unions have overstepped their bounds. But to dismiss all the positives that unions have ushered into this country regarding decent pay, worker safety, environmental protections, and consumer protections is pretty myopic. Just the threat of unions also keeps many non-union businesses honest when dealing with employees as well.

Certainly not forgotten here as I am a student of history. But I will say, these same unions haven't evolved with the global market, and that has hurt them badly. I don't, however, place full blame on them. It takes two to tango. But,...I would beseech the memory you so hardily recall...take an historical look at why/how unions started, and their respective place today in the marketplace...much different.

[TheShiznit]

America can't compete anymore. I give this country 25 years at most until the collapse.

 

Compete against what Tim? Care to extrapolate. Are we to actually compete against China and its government controlled workforce? Are we to actually compete against mexico and its slave labor laws and no labor standards. Exactly what is the US worker competing against? This is not a free world market. We are at a complete disadvantage.

[TheShiznit]

That's certainly news to me. A docudrama I watched on the big three used a Toyota plant for comparison and said the average assembly worker earned $15-18/hr.

That's another important part of the equation. I read a stat somewhere that every GM car had several thousand dollars baked into the cost just for retiree health care??? Hard for the Malibu to come in at the same price point as the Accord.

 

That is the point. Retiree benefits. Not the pension either....the health and welfare benefit. However, we cannot have our cake and eat it too. The company made this promise to the worker and the union long time ago in exchange for a lower wage. Now they want to complain. Then we have those among us who complain that Medicare is bad bad bad and that people should buy their own healthcare...but if they are unhealthy can they get it?

 

It is easy to say that the american autoworker is not competitive on the world market....but the rest of the world is not operating from the same standards either. Just my two cents.

[Front Row]

Compete against what Tim? Care to extrapolate. Are we to actually compete against China and its government controlled workforce? Are we to actually compete against mexico and its slave labor laws and no labor standards. Exactly what is the US worker competing against? This is not a free world market. We are at a complete disadvantage.

Valid point.. and I'm not sure what the answer is.

Perhaps if some of the production / management fat got trimmed , American exceptionalism could take hold again. ?

[dmarc117]

the real question is which class should we take. mandarin or espanol.

[TheShiznit]

the real question is which class should we take. mandarin or espanol.

 

If that was meant to be tongue and cheek....I got it. But the scary thing is that either one is becoming closer to reality than mere tongue and cheek! What if the Chinese wanted to call in all their debt we owe them? It is a scary thought.

[Big Country]

It is easy to say that the american autoworker is not competitive on the world market....but the rest of the world is not operating from the same standards either.

 

But aren't standards just a piece of the overall equation of the "world market". To say that it is unfair is a misnomer, we (Americans) just choose to provide a higher standard of wage/benefit/work environment than many other competing countries for our labor force, which in turn drives the cost to produce using American labor up, thus driving the price of American goods up. Most consumers are price conscious. Where or how a good was manufactured is farther down the scale of evaluating what good to purchase.

 

Thus, I suppose a valid conclusion is that the American autoworker is indeed not able to compete in the global market today unless they are willing to cede compensation/benefits/work environment so as to be able to be more competitive (and yes, there may well need to be concessions made on the part of management in these same areas). That, or they must be trained in new skills that the American labor force can be competitive with in the world market.

[Front Row]

This made me laugh, from another forum..

 

My friend Tiffany's toyota corolla needed a new starter but she didn't have the $300+ the shop wanted to fix it, so I did it for her........

 

Talk about a pain in the ASS! Even with air tools it took 3 1/2 hours :mad:

 

Get this.....

 

1. The power steering pump has to be pulled to make room for the starter to come out.

 

2. There is only enough room to get one arm between the crossmember and transaxle.

 

3. After getting the bottom bolt out you find the top bolt is in the opposite direction, through the bellhousing.

 

4. Said bolt has a bracket a 1/2 inch away..... with a fat wiring loom clamped to it covering the bolt that holds said bracket to transmission.

 

5. After removing loom clamp, loom and bracket you find even with a swivel socket and foot long extension the angle is impossible to remove bolt, so you have to remove the whole air box..... which just so happens to have TWO more wiring looms clamped to it not to mention the sensor and plenum tube.

 

6. After removing all this crap you snap swivel socket and extension to air ratchet and with one zap remove one farking bolt! :mad:

 

7. Next you pull out old starter and throw it across street! (well not really, it had a $30 core charge.... but I felt like it :mad: )

 

8. You put new starter in but find it impossible to hold starter in place and start bottom bolt because only one arm will fit between crossmember and transaxle.

 

9. You cuss out car and call it every name in the book... (actually I was doing this throughout the whole job)

 

10. You spot Hot blonde neighbor and call her over to start backwards top bolt while you hold starter in place (Hey, I've fixed her truck dozens of times.... won't hurt her to get a little dirty)

 

11. You thank Hottie and put the whole mess back together......

 

12. Car is fixed, but you want to beat it with a sledgehammer anyway...... 3 1/2 hours to do what takes 25 minutes on a Chevy, not to mention the wimpy little starter cost $130.00!

 

Japanese cars are teh SUCK! :mad:

[TheShiznit]

But aren't standards just a piece of the overall equation of the "world market". To say that it is unfair is a misnomer, we (Americans) just choose to provide a higher standard of wage/benefit/work environment than many other competing countries for our labor force, which in turn drives the cost to produce using American labor up, thus driving the price of American goods up. Most consumers are price conscious. Where or how a good was manufactured is farther down the scale of evaluating what good to purchase.

 

Thus, I suppose a valid conclusion is that the American autoworker is indeed not able to compete in the global market today unless they are willing to cede compensation/benefits/work environment so as to be able to be more competitive (and yes, there may well need to be concessions made on the part of management in these same areas). That, or they must be trained in new skills that the American labor force can be competitive with in the world market.

 

So your solution is that the American Worker should lower their standard of living to that of the rest of the world. Isn't that a little backwards in thinking. I thought the whole point in this country is to do better than the previous generation. Now you wish to impose the realities of the Chinese Workforce on my generation simply because you enjoy buying their cheap goods. Talk about a need for another thread!

[Big Country]

So your solution is that the American Worker should lower their standard of living to that of the rest of the world. Isn't that a little backwards in thinking. I thought the whole point in this country is to do better than the previous generation. Now you wish to impose the realities of the Chinese Workforce on my generation simply because you enjoy buying their cheap goods. Talk about a need for another thread!

 

That is not what I am saying at all. Your post implied that because other countries have different standards, they were operating at an unfair advantage. I merely was challenging that notion to point out that the level of standard is a factor in the equation, not an unbalancing force. The American laborer can either adapt in some way to be more competitive with the current world market, be that with reducing compensation to compete with the world economy, improving productivity to compete with the world market or possibly adapting to a new role through education and or training if they are unwilling or unable to continue to compete with the world economy.

[dmarc117]

todays workers need to come to the realization that world competition is here. that there is someone someplace that will do their job for less. its here and not going away. it happened in my business with width of prices and edge. once markets become more and more efficient, they dont go backwards. it sucks. but its inevitable.

[Ursa Majoris]

This made me laugh, from another forum..

 

My friend Tiffany's toyota corolla needed a new starter but she didn't have the $300+ the shop wanted to fix it, so I did it for her........

 

Talk about a pain in the ASS! Even with air tools it took 3 1/2 hours :mad:

 

Get this.....

 

1. The power steering pump has to be pulled to make room for the starter to come out.

 

2. There is only enough room to get one arm between the crossmember and transaxle.

 

3. After getting the bottom bolt out you find the top bolt is in the opposite direction, through the bellhousing.

 

4. Said bolt has a bracket a 1/2 inch away..... with a fat wiring loom clamped to it covering the bolt that holds said bracket to transmission.

 

5. After removing loom clamp, loom and bracket you find even with a swivel socket and foot long extension the angle is impossible to remove bolt, so you have to remove the whole air box..... which just so happens to have TWO more wiring looms clamped to it not to mention the sensor and plenum tube.

 

6. After removing all this crap you snap swivel socket and extension to air ratchet and with one zap remove one farking bolt! :mad:

 

7. Next you pull out old starter and throw it across street! (well not really, it had a $30 core charge.... but I felt like it :mad: )

 

8. You put new starter in but find it impossible to hold starter in place and start bottom bolt because only one arm will fit between crossmember and transaxle.

 

9. You cuss out car and call it every name in the book... (actually I was doing this throughout the whole job)

 

10. You spot Hot blonde neighbor and call her over to start backwards top bolt while you hold starter in place (Hey, I've fixed her truck dozens of times.... won't hurt her to get a little dirty)

 

11. You thank Hottie and put the whole mess back together......

 

12. Car is fixed, but you want to beat it with a sledgehammer anyway...... 3 1/2 hours to do what takes 25 minutes on a Chevy, not to mention the wimpy little starter cost $130.00!

 

Japanese cars are teh SUCK! :mad:

Nothing to do with Japanese cars per se - all new cars are heading this way. It's everything to do with ensuring that most people take their car to dealerships when work is required, where they will drop trou and get shafted. It's the same business model as the ink jet printer - inexpensive product, very expensive spares.

Edited February 14, 2008 by Ursa Majoris

[Yukon Cornelius]

Nothing to do with Japanese cars per se - all new cars are heading this way. It's everything to do with ensuring that most people take their car to dealerships when work is required, where they will drop trou and get shafted. It's the same business model as the ink jet printer - inexpensive product, very expensive spares.

wurd

[Dr. Love]

My how short the memories are regarding unions. Without unions we'd be living in China. You really want that? You want to work 7 days a week 12 hours a day in a sweat shop earning a pittance to spend at the company store? Of course some unions have overstepped their bounds. But to dismiss all the positives that unions have ushered into this country regarding decent pay, worker safety, environmental protections, and consumer protections is pretty myopic. Just the threat of unions also keeps many non-union businesses honest when dealing with employees as well.

 

 

And the most truthful post thus far. It shocks me that people can't see this. It shocks me that people that are doing pretty well in a non union shop don't realize what got them where they are.

 

I wish I could stay out of these train wrecks but I just can't help myself.

Bull. Grunge' post is one of the least relevant here. It's all bluster and exaggeration. Have unions played a part historically in changing the way employment and compensation were handled in the US? Absolutely. Implying that unions are still useful overall in today's economy? Arguable, at best. Crediting unions with environmental protections, consumer protections, and the benefits that skilled, non-union workers enjoy and implying that all of that would go away if the UAW or the Teamsters vanished off of the Earth? Utter propaganda.