godtomsatan Posted June 11, 2008 Share Posted June 11, 2008 If anyone's gonna play ATaM, it'll be this guy... Wow, that made me pee. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grits and Shins Posted June 11, 2008 Share Posted June 11, 2008 Wow, that made me pee. On MrTed's toe? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
godtomsatan Posted June 11, 2008 Share Posted June 11, 2008 So, as a novice poker player, why would d3's all-in move on the flop be considered a donkey play by the initial bettor? Because it was technically incorrect for him to call because of the odds? There's been discussion of d3 making a bet instead of checking down after the flop, how would that have been more "correct" if the end result (presumably) would have been the AA guy raising him all-in? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimC Posted June 11, 2008 Share Posted June 11, 2008 (edited) I did about the same to a buddy of mine live in Vegas. Mine was after the turn with only the river to come. I was trying to steal the pot with my flush draw but knew I still had outs if he called. He called with his aces and I hit my flush for a purty big pot. Very next hand I cleaned him out when my aces ran into his a-k and he didn't improve. I did buy him dinner at Toby Keiths that night. He still gives me crap about those two hands to this day. Sometimes you get caught with your hand in the cookie jar and you still get the cookie. I love it when they lose it in the chat box. I normally tell them their tears quench my thirst or I put their tears into my windshield washer reservoir some a-hole thing like that. Edited June 11, 2008 by TimC Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darin3 Posted June 11, 2008 Author Share Posted June 11, 2008 I did about the same to a buddy of mine live in Vegas. Mine was after the turn with only the river to come. I was trying to steal the pot with my flush draw but knew I still had outs if he called. He called with his aces and I hit my flush for a purty big pot. Very next hand I cleaned him out when my aces ran into his a-k and he didn't improve. I did buy him dinner at Toby Keiths that night. He still gives me crap about those two hands to this day. Sometimes you get caught with your hand in the cookie jar and you still get the cookie. I love it when they lose it in the chat box. I normally tell them their tears quench my thirst or I put their tears into my windshield washer reservoir some a-hole thing like that. Pretty much my thinking post-flop, although I wasn't able to fully verbalize (or type) it here... And yeah, I was trying to steal, but knew I'd have outs if the guy called. I think I initially said "hold on, let me count all the coin first, then I'll respond". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Country Posted June 11, 2008 Share Posted June 11, 2008 So, as a novice poker player, why would d3's all-in move on the flop be considered a donkey play by the initial bettor? Because it was technically incorrect for him to call because of the odds? There's been discussion of d3 making a bet instead of checking down after the flop, how would that have been more "correct" if the end result (presumably) would have been the AA guy raising him all-in? It was considered a donkey play because darin only had a draw that was give or take about 2.7-1 to hit, meaning that to even call the $20 bet the guy made, mathematically to make it a profitable move there would have needed to be about $55 or so in the pot, and that would make it a borderline call at best. In this case, there was about half of that, or, it was laying darin about 1.3 to 1 or so. THe reason for darin leading out is that it allows him to do a couple of things. First, if the other player completely missed and had a hand like AK or something, darin may take the pot down right there. It also gives darin some pot control if the guy has a marginal hand. As to the question of why darin leading out and then calling a large raise is "more correct", it simply comes down to math... darin would have been calling a lesser amount into a larger pot to continue with the hand. If darin bets out $5 and is raised all in, then he is calling $20 more into about a $35 pot, or getting odds of about 1.7 to 1. General rule of thumb, particular at the lower levels is that advantage goes to the aggressor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darin3 Posted June 11, 2008 Author Share Posted June 11, 2008 General rule of thumb, particular at the lower levels is that advantage goes to the aggressor. Right, and up until that point, I had been playing super-tight, only playing premium hands. I made it known (showed my hand a couple times with the definite nuts) and came out aggressively there in hopes that the dude would lay down. Again, ish happens. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Country Posted June 11, 2008 Share Posted June 11, 2008 Right, and up until that point, I had been playing super-tight, only playing premium hands. I made it known (showed my hand a couple times with the definite nuts) and came out aggressively there in hopes that the dude would lay down. Again, ish happens. No, you played this hand passively. If you were playing aggressively, you either would have repopped preflop if you felt he was weak, or would have led out on the flop with your second nut flush draw. Adding $5 all-in into a $50+ pot is not being aggressive, it is sweetening the pot. He would have had to call with just about any two cards at that point as he was beyond pot committed. I'm not making a comment on the play of the hand, as yes, that is poker, but it certainly was not aggressive poker. You were never the antagonist in the hand. The guy with aces played the hand near perfectly and got unlucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Easy n Dirty Posted June 11, 2008 Share Posted June 11, 2008 And yeah, I was trying to steal, but knew I'd have outs if the guy called. You keep saying this or something equivalent to it, and it's laughable - the guy bet $20 into you, you raised him all in for another $5. You have characterized your $5 reraise into a $50 pot as a semi-bluff or a steal attempt - it is neither. In fact, your $5 reraise steal semi-bluff was completely irrelevant to the hand. Once you called his $20 bet, the $5 left behind it was inevitably going into the pot eventually, just a matter of when. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grits and Shins Posted June 11, 2008 Share Posted June 11, 2008 You keep saying this or something equivalent to it, and it's laughable - the guy bet $20 into you, you raised him all in for another $5. You have characterized your $5 reraise into a $50 pot as a semi-bluff or a steal attempt - it is neither. In fact, your $5 reraise steal semi-bluff was completely irrelevant to the hand. Once you called his $20 bet, the $5 left behind it was inevitably going into the pot eventually, just a matter of when. Yup ... I like the way BC said it ... it was a pot sweetener, no way anybody in their right mind folds a $5 bet into a $50 pot with no more betting left. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azazello1313 Posted June 11, 2008 Share Posted June 11, 2008 How can the guy with Aces NOT call? After the flop there was $6.75 in the pot. Aces raised $20, D3 raised it to $25 (all in) ... so the pot is sitting at $51.75. It will cost him another $5 to go to the river. I just wonder why the aces didn't simply bet $25 in the first place to put D3 all in. probably figured he was slightly more likely to get the bad call if his bet left darin with some chips. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zooty Posted June 11, 2008 Share Posted June 11, 2008 I think Zooty misread the post as it was Darin doing the calling and the guy with aces being the aggressor. I don't mind the call with K9 so long as you really can get away from the hand. I would have preferred leading at the pot as a semi bluff, maybe about two thirds the pot. Guy would have pushed and you would be getting about even money on the call if the math in my head is working out. You don't mention the rank of cards on the flop, but assuming all below a king, you could claim you considered your kings outs before you saw his hand and then the math probably does work out to being a right move. The calling of the massive over bet (or, in this case, pushing with the extra $5) is mathematically wrong if the numbers in my head are right, but once you decided to go with it then I agree with the push. He's still a donkey for the chat box explosion. I did misread the re-raise all-in as being only another $5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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