Appeasement

[H8tank]

We'll have none of it.

 

BEIJING (Reuters) - Chinese authorities in the restive far western region of Xinjiang have demolished a mosque for refusing to put up signs in support of this August's Beijing Olympics, an exiled group said on Monday.

 

"All the Korans in the mosque have been seized by the government and dozens of people detained," he said. "The detained Uighurs have been tortured."

 

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/olympics_mosque_dc

 

I wonder if CAIR will issue a press release...

[H8tank]

opie, those jorans were burned.

 

This is how to treat'm.

 

A Muslim asylum seeker lost out on an award for volunteer work after indicating that he would not shake hands with the woman who was to present him with the prize.

 

Alinoor Ahmed Sheikh, a Somali based in an asylum hostel in Tralee, was to have been honoured for his work raising funds for Amnesty International at a ceremony last Thursday organised by the Africa Centre in Dublin. The event was designed to highlight the positive work done by refugees and asylum seekers in Irish communities.

 

Five minutes before Benedicta Attoh, a member of the National Consultative Committee on Racism and Interculturalism, was due to present the award she was told not to call out Sheikh’s name. “The judges had decided that someone else should get the award,” said Attoh, chairwoman of the Africa Centre’s board.

 

Attoh did not find out the reason why until she read in Metro Eireann on Friday that his name had been removed because of his refusal to shake hands with women. Sheikh told the newspaper that he had been assured his request not to shake a female presenter’s hand would be accommodated because it was based on his religious beliefs.

 

His certificate was presented to Therese Elumelu, who was not present, with Sheikh’s name crossed out.

 

 

 

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/worl...icle4188508.ece

[untateve]

We'll have none of it.

 

BEIJING (Reuters) - Chinese authorities in the restive far western region of Xinjiang have demolished a mosque for refusing to put up signs in support of this August's Beijing Olympics, an exiled group said on Monday.

 

"All the Korans in the mosque have been seized by the government and dozens of people detained," he said. "The detained Uighurs have been tortured."

 

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/olympics_mosque_dc

 

I wonder if CAIR will issue a press release...

 

 

I agree with H8--America should be more like China. Hope! Change!

[Pope Flick]

[CaP'N GRuNGe]

The Mythology of Munich

[Chavez]

I invite al-Qaeda to sail its navy directly from Afghanistan and settle in Texas.

[I Like Soup]

I'm starting to like China more and more...I'm gonna look for more of their goods to purchase.

[cre8tiff]

The Mythology of Munich

 

Hellluvan article.

Edited June 24, 2008 by cre8tiff

[The Holy Roller]

The Mythology of Munich

 

Chamberlain only delayed the inevitable with his actions at Munich.

[Pope Flick]

Chamberlain only delayed the inevitable with his actions at Munich.

 

 

I think that is very much debatable. It was only AFTER Munich that Hitler ramped up arms production in order to arm what had been to that point not a very well armed army. Many of his early treaty violations were aimed at getting around the size of the army Germany was allowed, which he did through an urban development corps. They trained without arms by and large, until he could drop all pretenses of violating the Treaty of Versailles.

 

In fact, what made Munich so important was that it allowed the Nazis to confiscate a production run of over 200 tanks, many of which were used in Poland.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panzer_35(t)

In 1939, , 219 vehicles of the Czechoslovak army were seized by the Germans. They were first used, from 5 June 1939, by the Cavalry as LTM 35. After 16 January 1940 they were used under the designation Pz.Kpfw. 35(t) by German armored units. The letter (t) stood for tschechoslowakisch (Czechoslovak), an assignment for captured equipment. In German service, the 37 mm-armed tanks were used as substitutes for the Panzerkampfwagen III medium tank.

 

The German 6th Panzer Division used 35(t)s in Poland, France and the USSR. The fighting in the invasion of the Soviet Union exposed the vehicle's unsuitability for cold weather operations and general unreliability.

 

They weren't great, obviously, but they allowed Germany to swell her equipment ranks quickly, while domestic production ramped up and they produced their own lethal versions.

 

http://archiv.radio.cz/english/archive/24-6-97.html

 

106 of these Czech tanks took part in the Polish campaign in Sept. 1939 as a part of the First Light Division. This unit was later renamed Sixth Panzer Division and it used 128 LT-35 tanks in the French campaign in May 1940. Here, however, the Czech tank proved less effective in combat and over seventy LT-35s were destroyed or damaged in the campaign. Naturally enough, the German high command decided against the further use of these tanks on the battlefield. Contrary to the decision, another 160 of the Czech light tanks invaded Russia in June 1941. Their last battle took place six months later in the outskirts of Moscow. There was no further use for the aging tank and the 200 remaining pieces were only used for service far away from the major front lines.

 

Munich allowed Hitler time to arm, but the worst of it was probably what schoalrs refer to as"The Sitzkrieg: which was the gap from the invasion of Poland until the spring of 1940, where few shots were fired on the Continent between England, Fance and Germany. It was that period that allowed the bulk of the German army to ramp up - and many scholars debate whether a fast action by France and England during this time could have ended the war early.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phony_War

 

So Chamberalin's mistake wasn't delaying the inevitable, it was what he allowed to become inevitable that was his mistake.

[Ursa Majoris]

I think that is very much debatable. It was only AFTER Munich that Hitler ramped up arms production in order to arm what had been to that point not a very well armed army. Many of his early treaty violations were aimed at getting around the size of the army Germany was allowed, which he did through an urban development corps. They trained without arms by and large, until he could drop all pretenses of violating the Treaty of Versailles.

 

In fact, what made Munich so important was that it allowed the Nazis to confiscate a production run of over 200 tanks, many of which were used in Poland.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panzer_35(t)

 

 

They weren't great, obviously, but they allowed Germany to swell her equipment ranks quickly, while domestic production ramped up and they produced their own lethal versions.

 

http://archiv.radio.cz/english/archive/24-6-97.html

 

 

 

Munich allowed Hitler time to arm, but the worst of it was probably what schoalrs refer to as"The Sitzkrieg: which was the gap from the invasion of Poland until the spring of 1940, where few shots were fired on the Continent between England, Fance and Germany. It was that period that allowed the bulk of the German army to ramp up - and many scholars debate whether a fast action by France and England during this time could have ended the war early.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phony_War

 

So Chamberalin's mistake wasn't delaying the inevitable, it was what he allowed to become inevitable that was his mistake.

Most excellent post.

[Randall]

Appeasement. You mean like

[CaP'N GRuNGe]

Appeasement. You mean like

 

Zakaria rocks.

[The Holy Roller]

I think that is very much debatable. It was only AFTER Munich that Hitler ramped up arms production in order to arm what had been to that point not a very well armed army. Many of his early treaty violations were aimed at getting around the size of the army Germany was allowed, which he did through an urban development corps. They trained without arms by and large, until he could drop all pretenses of violating the Treaty of Versailles.

 

In fact, what made Munich so important was that it allowed the Nazis to confiscate a production run of over 200 tanks, many of which were used in Poland.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panzer_35(t)

 

 

They weren't great, obviously, but they allowed Germany to swell her equipment ranks quickly, while domestic production ramped up and they produced their own lethal versions.

 

http://archiv.radio.cz/english/archive/24-6-97.html

 

 

 

Munich allowed Hitler time to arm, but the worst of it was probably what schoalrs refer to as"The Sitzkrieg: which was the gap from the invasion of Poland until the spring of 1940, where few shots were fired on the Continent between England, Fance and Germany. It was that period that allowed the bulk of the German army to ramp up - and many scholars debate whether a fast action by France and England during this time could have ended the war early.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phony_War

 

So Chamberalin's mistake wasn't delaying the inevitable, it was what he allowed to become inevitable that was his mistake.

 

Wasn't allowing Hitler to continue with his plans appeasement? I am confused as to the author's point about the "mythology" then.

[I Like Soup]

I think that is very much debatable. It was only AFTER Munich that Hitler ramped up arms production in order to arm what had been to that point not a very well armed army. Many of his early treaty violations were aimed at getting around the size of the army Germany was allowed, which he did through an urban development corps. They trained without arms by and large, until he could drop all pretenses of violating the Treaty of Versailles.

 

In fact, what made Munich so important was that it allowed the Nazis to confiscate a production run of over 200 tanks, many of which were used in Poland.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panzer_35(t)

 

 

They weren't great, obviously, but they allowed Germany to swell her equipment ranks quickly, while domestic production ramped up and they produced their own lethal versions.

 

http://archiv.radio.cz/english/archive/24-6-97.html

 

 

 

Munich allowed Hitler time to arm, but the worst of it was probably what schoalrs refer to as"The Sitzkrieg: which was the gap from the invasion of Poland until the spring of 1940, where few shots were fired on the Continent between England, Fance and Germany. It was that period that allowed the bulk of the German army to ramp up - and many scholars debate whether a fast action by France and England during this time could have ended the war early.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phony_War

 

So Chamberalin's mistake wasn't delaying the inevitable, it was what he allowed to become inevitable that was his mistake.

Most excellent post.

I disagree to a point. Germany was already massing military might and while the inferior equipment they got from annexing part of Czech, they were well on their way.

The repeated failures of the Baldwin government to deal with rising Nazi power are often laid, historically, on the doorstep of Chamberlain, since he presided over the final collapse of European affairs, resisted acting on military information, lied to the House of Commons about Nazi military strength, shunted out opposition which, correctly, warned of the need to prepare – and above all, failed to use the months profitably to ready for the oncoming conflict. However, it is also true that by the time of his premiership, dealing with the Nazi Party in Germany was an order of magnitude more difficult. Germany had begun general conscription previously, and had already amassed an air arm. Chamberlain, caught between the bleak finances of the depression era and his own abhorrence of war – and a Kriegsherr who would not be denied a war – gave ground and entered history as a political scapegoat for what was a more general failure of political will and vision which had begun with the Treaty of Versailles in 1919

 

A good example is the Messershmitt ME109. Germany started producing them in 1936, a couple of years before Chamberlain screwed the pooch so the Germans were well on their way to producing superior weapons of war. I think HR is right...it was inevitable that Hitler was going to attack somebody.

[Ursa Majoris]

I disagree to a point. Germany was already massing military might and while the inferior equipment they got from annexing part of Czech, they were well on their way.

 

 

A good example is the Messershmitt ME109. Germany started producing them in 1936, a couple of years before Chamberlain screwed the pooch so the Germans were well on their way to producing superior weapons of war. I think HR is right...it was inevitable that Hitler was going to attack somebody.

Hitler already had attacked somebody, albeit in a minor fashion or by proxy. The Rhineland was reoccupied in 1936 in direct violation of Versailles, Austria was annexed in 1938, pre-Munich, and Hitler's troops and pilots assisted Generalissimo Franco's victory in the Spanish Civil War. That war in particular provided the nascent Luftwaffe with excellent training.

 

But you are right to say the build up had already begun. It began as soon as Hitler gained power in January 1933, although the development of a new Wehrmacht could be traced back much earlier than that as the Nazis had the SA and the SS under arms well before 1933 and before them, the Freikorps militias, whose members later joined the SA and SS.

[Pope Flick]

I disagree to a point. Germany was already massing military might and while the inferior equipment they got from annexing part of Czech, they were well on their way.

 

 

A good example is the Messershmitt ME109. Germany started producing them in 1936, a couple of years before Chamberlain screwed the pooch so the Germans were well on their way to producing superior weapons of war. I think HR is right...it was inevitable that Hitler was going to attack somebody.

http://books.google.com/books?id=hMFA8FJ1K...result#PPA20,M1

 

Page 20 talks about the Luftwaffe's greatest leap occured between 1938-1939. After Munich. My main point is this: without the time bought at Munich, Germany would not have enjoyed the advantage they did on Sep1, 1939. I know and understand about the general mobilisation, but I also know that the German army trained with shovels through the early 30's, as they classified their army as 'public works.' in order to get around the treaty of Versailles.

 

Also keep in mind Germany renounced the military portions of the treaty as early as 1935. There's no doubt he was going to attack someone, but Chamberlain's policies allowed him to stretch from the English Channel to Moscow.

[I Like Soup]

http://books.google.com/books?id=hMFA8FJ1K...result#PPA20,M1

 

Page 20 talks about the Luftwaffe's greatest leap occured between 1938-1939. After Munich. My main point is this: without the time bought at Munich, Germany would not have enjoyed the advantage they did on Sep1, 1939. I know and understand about the general mobilisation, but I also know that the German army trained with shovels through the early 30's, as they classified their army as 'public works.' in order to get around the treaty of Versailles.

 

Also keep in mind Germany renounced the military portions of the treaty as early as 1935. There's no doubt he was going to attack someone, but Chamberlain's policies allowed him to stretch from the English Channel to Moscow.

Does anyone find it odd that Chamberlain, a British Prime Minister, was busy giving away a part of Czech?

[Ursa Majoris]

Does anyone find it odd that Chamberlain, a British Prime Minister, was busy giving away a part of Czech?

Not at all. Until WW2, Europe was dominated by the same Great Powers that had allied with each other and fought each other for years. The names had sometimes changed as borders and empires shifted and smaller countries unified but by 1870 the Britain - France - Germany - Russia group was dominant. All other countries were seen as pawns in the Great Game, both in Europe and beyond, hence it was not out of the ordinary for the Great Powers to decide to carve up one of the pawns in order to achieve some greater end (in their eyes).

[cre8tiff]

I love it when fishing expeditions grow into actual debates on something solid like history.