Dogs fighting...legal/moral question

[The Hitter]

I've seen some excellent advice given here in the tailgate, so thought I'd seek some counsel on my current situation.

 

We have a 4-year-old 115 lb Retriever/Lab mix named Jake. Excellent watchdog and pretty menacing to look at and to hear, but he's actually the nicest dog I've ever owned. I have a 4-year-old daughter and a 10-month-old son and they love him and he's always been great with them. He's always been great around other animals (he ignores cats and loves the dog park). Anyway, here's the situation...

 

We just moved into our new community about 6 weeks ago. The day we were moving in, 2 enormous (150 lbs each minimum) Great Danes just wandered into our garage. I could tell they were friendly so I wasn't worried, but they were huge. The owner walks up, apologizes, introduces himself (Greg) and welcomes us to the neighborhood. We chat a minute about his dogs and the community, then he heads on his way.

 

Cut to last night...I'm out walking Jake (on a leash as I know people sometimes get scared when they first see him), and I notice Greg is out with his Danes. I yell hi to him, and the dogs see Jake and me, and come galloping over. Let me first say they were never in any kind of aggressive mode..just coming over to play. Anyway, one gets close to Jake and he snaps. I mean, completely snaps. Growling at the Dane all crazy-like and I'm actually straining on the leash to keep him away. He calms down after about 10 seconds and I relax and turn my head to Greg, who's still walking across the street in no hurry. Then Jake lunges at the dog again, yanking me to the ground and draggng me about 3 feet. Somehow he gets hold of this Danes rear leg up near the hip and he's going ape-s&*t on it, like I've never seen him before. Now I've got him in a headlock and around the collar and can't get him loose. The Dane isn't fighting back but just trying to get away. I put my hand in Jake's mouth trying to pry his mouth off the dog and I see blood and I'm freakin' out. Finally, after what seemed like forever, I get him off. He goes back to being calm again and while Greg runs his dogs down (when the crap started the other dog took flight), I run Jake into our house across the street. I come back out, apologizing and thinking Greg's dog is pretty maimed up. We get her under control and although she's got a bad limp, there's only about a 1/2" gash on her thigh. I was amazed that was it because of the way Jake had hold of it. I keep apologizing and telling Greg how I've never seen Jake react that way. Ever. Neither of us have an answer for why it happened. So I apologize again and tell him if he needs to get it stitched, that I'd pay for it. He says he thinks its fine and we go our separate ways.

 

So today, Greg rings my doorbell and proceeds to tell me that he had to take the dog into the emergency room at 4 AM because she was bleeding all over and in pain. He said her leg swelled up like a water balloon. The vet told him that her muscles in her leg had been torn in several places and she needed major surgery. Again, I kept apologizing. Greg states that he hated to 'stick' me with the bill and that he had no ill feelings toward Jake or us as Jake's owners. But he tells me that this vet is the best around and warns me that he isn't cheap. So I tell him that's ok, it was obviously Jake's fault and just drop by with the bill and we would take care of it. I explained everything to my wife and also explained to her that I would be getting rid of Jake soon. I canot take the chance that my wife (let alone my kids) is with Jake when he goes off like that. She would never have been able to get him off the dog and maybe she would've gotten hurt in trying. I can't risk that. We love Jake, but I will not risk my family's health or finances (liability issues) for my pet's unpredictable behavior. Moving is not an option, and I'm not sure that it would matter. I lost some trust in Jake being around my family when this happened. She was seriously upset about the decision.

 

Here's my dilemma...after thinking about this all night, I realized that I'm not 100% sure this was indeed Jake's fault. Jake was leashed. The other dogs were not. The other dogs ran over, not the other way around. Now, I am not in any way, denying that it was Jake that hurt the Great Dane. They were not aggressive at all and didn't put up any kind of fight. That was all Jake. Maybe he was threatened by their size or something...I just don't know. I'm just not sure how much liability should Greg take for not having his dogs leashed. To make matters worse, Greg is head of the HOA and has been in the community for about 10 years. He knows every other owner and they all know him and his 2 Danes. Everyone must be ok with the dogs not being on leashes because he walks them every day that way. I'm worried that if I point the finger at him at all in this, that he'll make life miserable for us and turn every neighbor in the community against us (being the new guys here that we are). I'm just not happy about having to get rid of my dog for fear of another fight in the future, not am I happy to have to pay a couple thousand dollar vet bill.

 

I'm asking for legit advice on how to handle this situation. I want to be able to bring it up to Greg when he comes by with the bill, but I'm not sure how I can without it turning very ugly. Like I said, we just moved here so I really don't want to start off on the wrong foot with everyone. Its a very small neighborhood (about 20 homes) and everyone is really friendly. Exactly what we were looking for for our kids to grow up in.

 

Sorry for the long rant...but I'm faced with forking over a lot of $$ and getting rid of a beloved family pet just to keep the peace, or being labeled as the neighborhood heel with the dangerous dog.

 

Please offer any serious advice. Thanks in advance.

[Outshined]

I don't think you need to get rid of your dog. It can be trained not to be aggressive towards other dogs.

 

No matter what, I would NOT pay the bill. It was originally thought it would be stitches. I don't think your at fault.

[Azazello1313]

hmm. you sorta told him you would take care of it, even after he mentioned the bill would be for more than stitches. you kinda dug yourself a hole there, ethically if not legally. I think it sorta depends how much the bill ends up being. a 50/50 thing might be in order, given the fact that his dogs weren't leashed. I can't say for sure how I would handle it were I in your shoes, but if I felt responsible enough to tell the guy I'd take care of the bill when it happened and again when he mentioned the higher bill, I'd probably feel obliged to stand by that.

[Sugar Magnolia]

I am a professioanl dog trainer and behaviorist...

 

Jake was on leash, they were not; you are not liable. If you want to keep peace you can maybe offer to pay half but make it clear the law says you are not liable. If you contact aninal contol they may be able to tell you your legal obligation.

 

I'm guessing, BUT just guessing that the Danes were off leash and Jake was, triggering the aggression.

 

Since Jake did this much damage and to the rear of the dog as it was moving away, he doesn't have good bite inhibition and can do damage again to another dog if he feels provoked. You need to see a good behaviorist who can tell you what to do again if this presents itself again.

 

If you need to find a good trainer/behaviorist in your area PM me with your city and area code so I can find one for you.

[Dr. Sacrebleu]

I guess if I knew the cost of the bill it would influence my response.

 

Keeping the peace in the neighborhood, and paying for the damage your dog did is fine if the bill is 500$.

 

But if it is 2 grand like you imply, then I am definitely reminding the guy that his dogs were off leash, breaking the law. And saying you still want to pay for the damage your dog did, but think that he perhaps should shoulder some of the costs as well. Give him the opportunity to do the right thing.

[detlef]

As far as being on the hook for the $$, I think you sort of put yourself out there when you assured him time and again that you expect to pay the whole amount. Trying to back out on part of it now would seem wrong. It would be nice if the guy decided on his own that he should have had his dogs leashed and that you shouldn't have to pay for everything but, at this point, I think that's his call.

 

Yes, his dogs should have been leashed but that doesn't change the fact that you need to either figure out how to chill your dog out or, like you said, get rid of him. Unfortunately, the former will be tough because everyone in the neighborhood is going to be scared of it now and that won't help.

[The Hitter]

I really appreciate the replies.

 

I've been worrying myself sick about it since yesterday. I hate the idea of getting rid of Jake. He's a great dog and he's fantastic around my kids. My wife is deaf and he's been an absolute safety net for her when I'm not around. He lets her know when anyone is near the house, when the kids are crying, etc. He even knows command sign language. So I just hate losing him. But I can't risk another incident like that if I am not around. It could've been much worse.

 

Given the situation, I wonder if Jake felt threatened that 2 larger dogs were running at him and he was restrained...so he felt the need to protect himself (or protect me since the Danes were running at US) and get defensive. SM, does this sound reasonable? Or am I reaching for straws here? I'm just trying to find an explanation for his actions. It was so out of character for him.

 

I'm still not sure how to bring up the responsibility/fault issue with Greg. I just don't want to create animosity within the neighborhood. Obviously, most would probably side with Greg as he's been around forever and we are the newbies. And I really don't wanna deal with getting frequent letters from the HOA regarding my house or lawn.

 

Just a freakin' no win situation for me, I'm afraid.

[keggerz]

just curious but can't jake be muzzled for walks until you see a behaviorist to fix the issue? That would be my main worry is what happens to a part of your family (yes Jake). As for the liability issue I agree that I doubt your are legally liable....I also think you sorta painted yourself into a corner but maybe a nice discussion with gregg stating that you did feel bad but also didnt realize the possible nature of the injury beyond stitches and when he approached you saying it could be $$$ that as a new guy in the neighborhood you didnt want to make any waves but after thinking about wondered if it might not be fairer to split the bill since some culpability lies on him for not having his danes legally leashed.(run on sentence of the year )

 

Good luck in what is a very unfortunate situation.

Edited September 3, 2008 by keggerz

[TimC]

One of my labs, who is the most gentle dog on the planet, barks like crazy if another unknown dog comes at him unleashed when he is leashed. It's purely instinct. If the other dog is leashed, there is usually no problem. You really need to tell the other person to leash his dog. It's not your fault, it's not your dog's fault. It is people's responsibilty to restrain their dogs. That's why we have leash laws. You can't let dogs roam everywhere.

 

I would pay 50% if it were reasonable. I may pay all of it if it wasn't too expensive to keep neighborhood peace. I would definitely tell the guy he needs to leash his dogs. I would have no problem making it clear to him since he had no problem coming over to me.

 

Neighborhood association leaders are a PITA. We used to have one on our block that I didn't like. You can expect everything you do to be picked over. Fun stuff there. Ya'll won't be friends for too long. Keep the dog though. You don't get rid of a baby because it cries. It's nature. And it ain't all your fault.

[keggerz]

One of my labs, who is the most gentle dog on the planet, barks like crazy if another unknown dog comes at him unleashed when he is leashed. It's purely instinct. If the other dog is leashed, there is usually no problem. You really need to tell the other person to leash his dog. It's not your fault, it's not your dog's fault. It is people's responsibilty to restrain their dogs. That's why we have leash laws. You can't let dogs roam everywhere.

 

I would pay 50% if it were reasonable. I may pay all of it if it wasn't too expensive to keep neighborhood peace. I would definitely tell the guy he needs to leash his dogs. I would have no problem making it clear to him since he had no problem coming over to me.

 

Neighborhood association leaders are a PITA. We used to have one on our block that I didn't like. You can expect everything you do to be picked over. Fun stuff there. Ya'll won't be friends for too long. Keep the dog though. You don't get rid of a baby because it cries. It's nature. And it ain't all your fault.

TimC has a heart

[TimC]

TimC has a heart

 

I love my dogs more than any people on this planet. :noheart:

 

Dogs = Great. People = Suck.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Plus, we babysat the kid this weekend. I almost put it on Craigs List when it wouldn't stop crying.

Edited September 3, 2008 by TimC

[Kid Cid]

I love my dogs more than any people on this planet. :noheart:

 

Dogs = Great. People = Suck.

That's post of the year material, right there.

[TimC]

Explain to me how this is an instinct?

 

Would you feel more threatened if I were coming at you with a knife while you were tied to the bed or running free?

[MrTed46]

I would put a muzzle on jake when you walk him from now on, or at the very least when your family walks him. It can be a one time thing but I would be cautious with Jake arouns my family (not overly cautious but observe him).

 

As far as paying, you did say you would pay the bill. I would be very pissed if someone told me they would pay the bill then later say he wouldnt. I would talk to him and tell him the leashing laws (I am assuming your town has them). I would offer to pay 50/50 based on those laws...if he is stubborn I would jus pay it in good faith because I originally told him I would. But, I would def make him aware of the leashing laws and that is why you feel 50/50 is appropiate. You can tell him he caught you at a bad time and you were so depressed on what happened you didn't think through your decision on the bill.

 

GL

[Big F'n Dave]

Would you feel more threatened if I were coming at you with a knife while you were tied to the bed or running free?

 

You'd have to have two knives, a gun, a pit bull and The Hitter's crazy lab before I'd feel threatened by you.

[TimC]

You'd have to have two knives, a gun, a pit bull and The Hitter's crazy lab before I'd feel threatened by you.

 

Next time the wind blows and yer curled up in a fetal position, I'll be there for you...with my Harry Connick CD. :heart:

[TimC]

Your dog sounds like he has an obedience problem. He has no respect for the leash or your voice. What have you done so far to stop this unwanted behavior?

 

If a strange dog comes running at us, I want him barking. Ummmm, I think he's protecting us. This isn't unwanted behavior. Maybe he can roll over while the pit bull is taking a piece out yer ass like your poodle does.

 

I do agree with you that control in necessary though. My dog pretty much does anything I say. Sometimes she is a bit hard-headed though. She's definitely all bark and no bite.

 

If you think about dogs...their owner is their whole life and only provider of everything, food, shelter, everything. Dogs are pact animals and the owner is the pact leader so, of course, they are going to protect their owner when threatened by a non-pact animal off-leash.

Edited September 3, 2008 by TimC

[dmarc117]

check the town's ordinance about walking dogs. do they need to be leashed? muzzled?

 

oh, and never NEVER say you will pay for anything. just apologize.

Edited September 3, 2008 by dmarc117

[Savage Beatings]

I think you should sleep with his wife.

 

Now what was that you were saying? Something about a dog?

[TimC]

So , what your telling me is that your dog is the Alpha and not you. This is the problem in the dog world today. There owners have little or no experience.

 

Simmah down, little newbie. I've owned dogs for 30 years. :oldrolleyes:

[TimC]

Go make me a samwich and I'l let you off the hook.

 

I'll sleep with Hitter's neighbor's wife if he won't.

[Bird Dog]

I'll sleep with Hitter's neighbor's wife if he won't.

Sound like we have a new pack leader.

[Azazello1313]

So , what your telling me is that your dog is the Alpha and not you. This is the problem in the dog world today. There owners have little or no experience.

 

you kinda sound like one of those turds who think they know it all because they watched a few dog whisperer episodes. not saying that's what you are, just saying it wouldn't surprise me.

[The Hitter]

While I appreciate most of the replies here and they have been helpful, I also think that several posts here are painting my dog as being a loose cannon and me as an uneducated owner. It's exactly the opposite.

 

Jake had obedience training when he was a pup and again when he was a little older. Like I said, I have small children and my dog had to be good with them. Jake has NEVER exhibited ANY kind of aggression at all. Before we moved, he played 3-4 times a week at a local dog park with sometimes up to 50 other dogs of all sizes. Some larger, but most smaller than Jake. None on a leash. He never once had any issue with any other dog. My brother and Dad both have several dogs that Jake sees occasionally and he gets along fine with them. We have several cats that he just ignores. And children can walk up and take his food right out of his mouth without any incident. I've seen it happen. In addition, my wife taught him commands in sign language so he understands both verbal and gesture commands. Hell, he's even won a couple of awards for his obedience abilities. I rarely have ever had to voice a command more than once. But in this instance, he completely ignored my commands as well as my physical restraints. It was like he was determined to fight this dog. When it was done, he was back to normal. That's why this situation is still bothering me. I have no idea what set him off.

 

The more I think about it, the more I'm convinced he was protecting me and since the dogs failed to heed his warnings initially, he felt threatened and did the only thing he could. As far as the $$ goes, I've decided that it depends on the amount of the bill whether I will ask him to share in the responsibility. Regardless of the amount, I will explain to him the need for him to leash his dogs at all times.

[TimC]

Hitter, it happens. Don't kick yourself or the dog too much. They are still wild animals at heart and all the training in the world isn't going to stop mother nature 100% of the time. Please don't get rid of the dog because of one incident.

 

Maybe just get a fence (to neighborhood code, of course) and let him run around the backyard as much as he wants to avoid the neighborhood off-leash dogs.

 

I'd call animal control if I saw them off-leash again just to send them a message if they don't want to cooperate with your reasonable request to put them on a leash.