westvirginia Posted July 15, 2009 Share Posted July 15, 2009 Perch, you trust the fedgov to defend our country, but somehow they are too inept to help healthcare? I don't trust fedgov to flush the toilet after a sh!t, but as perch already told you, defense is one of those things we NEED a government for. Perhaps my readheaded buddy Tommy J explains it best: ...We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. That to secure these rights, governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed. That whenever any form of government becomes destructive to these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or to abolish it... Also worth remembering is: Eternal vigilance is the price of liberty. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaP'N GRuNGe Posted July 15, 2009 Share Posted July 15, 2009 I don't trust fedgov to flush the toilet after a sh!t, but as perch already told you, defense is one of those things we NEED a government for. Perhaps my readheaded buddy Tommy J explains it best: Also worth remembering is: e pluribus unum Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perchoutofwater Posted July 16, 2009 Share Posted July 16, 2009 Soo medicare and medicaid are the reason that privately provided health care costs have huge increases every year. Ok Got it. I agree with you on addressing the cost of litigation and the role lawyers (and wealthy insurance companies) play in messing up the medical system. A guy I used to play league basketball with was the CEO of a hospital, and we got in a discussion regarding heathcare. Lo and behold, the problem was not medicare and medicaid, but the enormous bureaucracy and administrative costs as opposed to expenses directly associated with doctors and pharmacists. Doctors are highly compensated individuals. They SHOULD be, because it sure aint easy to become a doctor. But when I am paying 20 cents on every dollar spent to support a huge amount of jobs that may not be necessary, then I am concerned. About 30% of my business is building and renovating hospitals. What your basketball buddy told you is contrary to what I've heard from the the CEO's of three different health systems and is contrary to what is indicated in this piece in the Wall Street Journal. I don't know where you are from, so demographics might play a role in why your buddy doesn't see the problem. Here in Texas where the federal government has failed to protect our borders (one of the services it is actually supposed to provide), non-payment is a big issue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bpwallace49 Posted July 16, 2009 Share Posted July 16, 2009 About 30% of my business is building and renovating hospitals. What your basketball buddy told you is contrary to what I've heard from the the CEO's of three different health systems and is contrary to what is indicated in this piece in the Wall Street Journal. I don't know where you are from, so demographics might play a role in why your buddy doesn't see the problem. Here in Texas where the federal government has failed to protect our borders (one of the services it is actually supposed to provide), non-payment is a big issue. I can see why you would have more medicare and medicaid issues, due to where you live and the demographics of your state. The guy I was playing with was hired to help eliminate some of these excesses, which likely places his facility at the further end of the bell curve rather than the average. Considering that was the hospital my wife was about to give birth at, it didnt make me very happy to learn that detail about the hospital. Regarding your borders . . . I thought you were seceding? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perchoutofwater Posted July 16, 2009 Share Posted July 16, 2009 Another issue with health care is the health care facilities themselves, and how lavish they have become in recent years. The same could also be said for schools. I could easily cut out $15 to $20 per square foot of almost every school and hospital we've built without compromising the function or longevity of the facility. When you are building 300,000 square foot buildings that adds up pretty quickly. I'd also add that facilities cold be made much cheaper if you did away with some of the stupid regulations regarding these facilities. Did you know that you can not have a patient room in a hospital overlooking a cemetery in the state of Texas? Or that every patient room has to have a window in it, even if it is on the 10th floor and the local fire department doesn't have a ladder truck that reaches that high. Stupid regulations that really don't affect health care in any way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clubfoothead Posted July 16, 2009 Share Posted July 16, 2009 What is so free market about forcing employers to bear the burden of retirement and healthcare costs? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perchoutofwater Posted July 16, 2009 Share Posted July 16, 2009 What is so free market about forcing employers to bear the burden of retirement and healthcare costs? I don't think anyone is advocating that it is. Some like you think government should provide all things to all people. Others feel individuals should provide for themselves, if their employer feels to use that as a form of compensation then it is free market. Forcing employers to do it is not free market at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clubfoothead Posted July 16, 2009 Share Posted July 16, 2009 I don't think anyone is advocating that it is. Some like you think government should provide all things to all people. Others feel individuals should provide for themselves, if their employer feels to use that as a form of compensation then it is free market. Forcing employers to do it is not free market at all. Well who do you think pays for it now? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perchoutofwater Posted July 16, 2009 Share Posted July 16, 2009 Well who do you think pays for it now? Employees through lower wages so to cover the additional compensation they receive through insurance and retirement plans. Who did you think? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AtomicCEO Posted July 16, 2009 Share Posted July 16, 2009 If you can't trust the guys who did jack squat on healthcare for 8 years to tell us what a good healthcare program is, then who can you trust? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westvirginia Posted July 16, 2009 Share Posted July 16, 2009 If you can't trust the guys who did jack squat on healthcare for 8 years to tell us what a good healthcare program is, then who can you trust? The guys who did jack-squat for healthcare for like 50 years before 1994? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perchoutofwater Posted July 16, 2009 Share Posted July 16, 2009 If you can't trust the guys who did jack squat on healthcare for 8 years to tell us what a good healthcare program is, then who can you trust? Bush increased funding for health care entitlements that is estimated to cost $800 Billion over the next 10 years. It was just one more thing I disagreed with him on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AtomicCEO Posted July 16, 2009 Share Posted July 16, 2009 Bush increased funding for health care entitlements that is estimated to cost $800 Billion over the next 10 years. It was just one more thing I disagreed with him on. Yeah, that was the winning plan. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perchoutofwater Posted July 16, 2009 Share Posted July 16, 2009 Yeah, that was the winning plan. I was against it, but it has been helpful in the area it focused on. It also wasn't a job and economy killer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AtomicCEO Posted July 16, 2009 Share Posted July 16, 2009 I was against it, but it has been helpful in the area it focused on. It also wasn't a job and economy killer. Yeah the job and economy killing was unrelated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perchoutofwater Posted July 16, 2009 Share Posted July 16, 2009 (edited) Tell you what Atomic, let's forget about the last administration for a minute. You can go back to the "yeah but Bush...." later, as I'm sure you will do in the next thread that questions something Obama is trying to force through congress. I have two simple questions for you. 1. Do you support the medical reform in it's current form? 2. Do you think it will increase unemployment? Edited July 16, 2009 by Perchoutofwater Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ursa Majoris Posted July 16, 2009 Share Posted July 16, 2009 The guys who did jack-squat for healthcare for like 50 years before 1994? It wasn't the hugh issue prior to 1994 that it is now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perchoutofwater Posted July 16, 2009 Share Posted July 16, 2009 It wasn't the hugh issue prior to 1994 that it is now. I don't know it is the hugh issue that Obama is trying to make it. Actually polling data I was looking at a week or so ago shows if anything there is less support for major medical reform now than there was in 1994. I'll try to find a link, and post it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perchoutofwater Posted July 16, 2009 Share Posted July 16, 2009 (edited) Polling Data comparing 1993 and 2009 feelings on health care shows much greater support in 1993. That isn't what I was looking for, but does show some of the data. Polls show 82% satisfied with their own health care! That leads me to believe that much of the angst is nothing more than media hype that has convinced people that even though they are satisfied with their health care it needs to be changed because Obama says so and the media is going to parrot whatever he says. A Rasmussen poll from July 13th, shows more people oppose the current health care plan than support it by a margin of 49 to 46, more importantly look at the strogly in favor and strongly opposed numbers. Edited July 16, 2009 by Perchoutofwater Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
detlef Posted July 16, 2009 Share Posted July 16, 2009 It can and should be argued that government interference in the free market is why we are where we are today with regard to medical care. Medicare and medicaid are really a big part of the problem we currently face. These programs in many cases freeload the health care system paying significantly less for the same procedures, than does private insurance. They can do this because they are the government. So, to make up for the free loading medicare and medicaid programs, hospitals charge insurance companies even more. This of course increases our premiums. Now if we (or our insurance companies) weren't there to pick up the difference eventually you would see fewer doctors and fewer hospital facilities as it would no longer be lucrative to practice medicine (only 37% of doctors in Texas are taking new medicare patients). Another problem we have is everyone seems to think it is your God given right to have $15 doctors appointments and $5 prescription drugs. Could you imagine what your home owners insurance cost would be if it had to pay to repaint your house, or to mow your lawn every week? Yet that is basically what we ask, no demand, that our medical insurance do. Used to people bought insurance for catastrophic accidents, not for well baby check ups. Part of this irrational thought process was again brought to us when the federal government decided to meddle in private business, by capping salaries, so companies started providing medical coverage as additional compensation. Employees looked at it like the better the coverage, the better the compensation they were getting, and since their salaries were capped by the government this was the best way for them to get ahead. This of course has gone from being a perk to being almost a right. You cite the Veteran's hospitals as an example of how the government is familiar with running a hospital system. Have you ever been in a veteran's hospital? That systems definitely isn't what I would want my health care provider to model their system on. First off, I agree completely that much of the problem is the fact that everyone is addicted to going to the doctor. This is something I just don't understand but you see it in so many forms. We're so hell bent on "getting our money's worth" that we subject ourselves to needless trips to the doctor just because they're there for the taking. I don't know about most, but I freaking hate going to the doctor. Why would I do that any more than is absolutely needed? Like, I don't know, because I'm sick and can't understand why or I broke my arm or something. That said, before I give your first argument any credence at all and not assume it's yet another knee jerk free market call on your part, wouldn't it warrant determining how many of the 36 countries on that list ranked above us have little or no government health system? I'm not an expert on the issue, but I do recognize a few above us on that list that are known for having government run systems. So wouldn't that take a bit of air out of your argument? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wiegie Posted July 16, 2009 Share Posted July 16, 2009 The guys who did jack-squat for healthcare for like 50 years before 1994? ever heard of medicare? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westvirginia Posted July 16, 2009 Share Posted July 16, 2009 It wasn't the hugh issue prior to 1994 that it is now. Then why did the hildebeast hold her closed meetings and declare a HC crisis? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westvirginia Posted July 16, 2009 Share Posted July 16, 2009 ever heard of medicare? Absolutely. You want everyone's healthcare to be like that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ursa Majoris Posted July 16, 2009 Share Posted July 16, 2009 Then why did the hildebeast hold her closed meetings and declare a HC crisis? Prescience? I guess maybe she saw it coming. Also, whether it was hugh or not, it was still a massively flawed construct, as we can now see. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AtomicCEO Posted July 16, 2009 Share Posted July 16, 2009 Tell you what Atomic, let's forget about the last administration for a minute. You can go back to the "yeah but Bush...." later, as I'm sure you will do in the next thread that questions something Obama is trying to force through congress. I have two simple questions for you. 1. Do you support the medical reform in it's current form? 2. Do you think it will increase unemployment? 1. I'm not usually 100% happy with any bill coming out of congress, but I think that the change we are planning to make is significantly better than no change at all. 2. No. You're a big f'in baby constantly complaining that everything anyone does hurts small business. It's become an annoying whine underneath every conversation about politics for the past year and I don't even hear it anymore. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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