Corporal Punishment

[SEC=UGA]

Kinda funny, this weekend my 11 month old kept grabbing at coke cans when we'd place them down on the coffee table. We'd tell her no and she'd laugh. Finally she managed to spill one. So, I got a new coke and she reached for it, so I lightly tapped her hand and said "No" rather loudly... She pulled her hand away from the can, looked at me, looked at my wife, and took one of those long breaths and began screaming like I had just ripped the head off of her favorite stuffed animal. Of course my wife looks at me and says, "you do realize you just broke her little heart", it's gonna be tough to spank this child...

[buddahj]

How many of us were spanked as children? My brother & I were...and I'd like to say we turned out ok. I don't know why it's become taboo to spank your child. Last time I checked they were my kids...not everyone elses.

[cliaz]

I've never hit my children. Ever. I could provide you my own anecdotal evidence that could easily demonstrate that my children are far from spoiled. Actually, I've been told by both of my children that I am the "harshest" dad around when compared to all their friends' dads.

 

I never suggested that parents who do not spank their children have spoiled children. I've never spanked my children either. I just don't get all holier than though with parents who do (not suggesting you are holier than though, i'm just explaining my point). But if my daughter ever told my wife to shut up, she would never do it again.

 

There is absolutely nothing wrong with corporal punishment when it is warranted and carried out responsibly

[dmarc117]

heres my evidence......generations of past knew respect and how to act properly. and they were beaten. generations x and y are a bunch of buck heads that werent beaten because of all the pc momos. case settled.

[untateve]

There is absolutely nothing wrong with corporal punishment when it is warranted and carried out responsibly

 

We disagree here.

 

heres my evidence......generations of past knew respect and how to act properly. and they were beaten. generations x and y are a bunch of buck heads that werent beaten because of all the pc momos. case settled.

 

When someone disagrees with you, it seems to bother you as you quickly resort to name calling and you attempt to end all debate. I find that people who act so tend to have underlying self-esteem issues.

[wiegie]

uh, do these "researchers" know the difference between correlation and causality?

 

I ask because it's not clear at all from this research article that spanking causes aggressive behavior. In fact, the mere way the study was conducted lends itself to finding the connection between spanking and aggressive behavior.

 

According to the newspaper articles (rather than the article itself since it hasn't come online at Pediatrics yet),

the researchers basically asked mothers: Do you spank your child?

Then they asked the mothers: Does your child misbehave?

 

First off, what sort of person would say that they spanked their child if they didn't think their child misbehaved? (So pretty much any parent who says that they spank their children is going to also report that their child misbehaves.)

Secondly, how many parents who don't spank their children would admit that their children don't behave? (So it is very likely than non-spanking parents will under-report the misbehavior of their children for fear of admitting that they have been lax in their disciplining efforts.)

 

Now, if the researchers actually observed the children's behavior, it would be one thing, but it appears that their evidence comes mostly from parent surveys (which could easily be garbage).

[untateve]

uh, do these "researchers" know the difference between correlation and causality?

 

I ask because it's not clear at all from this research article that spanking causes aggressive behavior. In fact, the mere way the study was conducted lends itself to finding the connection between spanking and aggressive behavior.

 

According to the newspaper articles (rather than the article itself since it hasn't come online at Pediatrics yet),

the researchers basically asked mothers: Do you spank your child?

Then they asked the mothers: Does your child misbehave?

 

First off, what sort of person would say that they spanked their child if they didn't think their child misbehaved? (So pretty much any parent who says that they spank their children is going to also report that their child misbehaves.)

Secondly, how many parents who don't spank their children would admit that their children don't behave? (So it is very likely than non-spanking parents will under-report the misbehavior of their children for fear of admitting that they have been lax in their disciplining efforts.)

 

Now, if the researchers actually observed the children's behavior, it would be one thing, but it appears that their evidence comes mostly from parent surveys (which could easily be garbage).

 

no way to answer those questions without reading the actual journal article in Pediatrics. the synopsis in the ABC news article does not go into that kind of detail.

[tazinib1]

Corporal Punishment? Its been around since....ummmmmm Jesus?

 

Take the life of somebody I love and I'll shove my double barrel shotgun up your @ss with no hesitation.

[Scooby's Hubby]

Corporal Punishment? Its been around since....ummmmmm Jesus?

 

Take the life of somebody I love and I'll shove my double barrel shotgun up your @ss with no hesitation.

Even before Jesus...Hamurabbi's Code - An Eye for An Eye, A Tooth for a Tooth...it was the law

Edited April 13, 2010 by Scooby's Hubby

[untateve]

Even before Jesus...Hamurabbi's Code - An Eye for An Eye, A Tooth for a Tooth...it was the law

 

Rape and murder have been around since before Jesus, too, but that is not a basis to provide support for a behavior.

[untateve]

Corporal Punishment? Its been around since....ummmmmm Jesus?

 

Take the life of somebody I love and I'll shove my double barrel shotgun up your @ss with no hesitation.

 

It's interesting that in the same moment you make a statement incorporating Jesus that you also discuss vengeance.

[skylive5]

Unta..... are you gathering info for a paper or your book?

[dmarc117]

We disagree here.

 

 

 

When someone disagrees with you, it seems to bother you as you quickly resort to name calling and you attempt to end all debate. I find that people who act so tend to have underlying self-esteem issues.

 

 

doc, am i getting charged for this?

 

oh, and to explain my name calling. im just tired of people making up excuses about everything. blaming bad behavior on this or that. life isnt that complicated.

Edited April 13, 2010 by dmarc117

[westvirginia]

You know, this is one of those things that the huddle has almost changed my mind on - unta anyway. I have spanked my kids before and still won't go as far as to say it's wrong if done correctly - but I haven't had to spank my kids in forever. If my wife and I are consistent, our kids KNOW we'll do what we've said we will do. And we have one who is timid (9) and one who isn't at all (7).

 

My 7-y/o took to slamming her door when angry, which, in turn pissed me off. After the second time, I told her next time that a door was a privilege in the house I pay for, and if she slammed it again, she would lose it. It hasn't been slammed since. She is INCREDIBLY strong willed, too. I don't detail this example to pat myself on the back, but to illustrate that I think unta has a hell of a point. This was the child we thought would be spanked numerous times per day. If you're consistent in training the kids they might just not need a spanking.

 

ETA - fwiw, I think this study is fo' shizzle for some of the reasons wiegie said. I mean, saccharine causes cancer, right?

Edited April 13, 2010 by westvirginia

[cliaz]

Rape and murder have been around since before Jesus, too, but that is not a basis to provide support for a behavior.

 

 

Are you comparing rape and murder to spanking a child?

[dmarc117]

Are you comparing rape and murder to spanking a child?

 

oh snap!

[TimC]

Have any of you tried to take away the cell phone, home phone and internet connection from 2 teenage girls for a week? I have. They would've rather me pistol-whip them, burn their arms and legs than deny them their right to communicate with their friends at all hours of the day. It got the point across.

 

I hope you guys with pre-teen daughters know what's in store for you.

[untateve]

Are you comparing rape and murder to spanking a child?

 

I guess I could respond and ask you if you are intentionally missing my point.

 

Corporal Punishment? Its been around since....ummmmmm Jesus?

 

Even before Jesus...Hamurabbi's Code - An Eye for An Eye, A Tooth for a Tooth...it was the law

 

The above two statements were posted. There was no other point made and it therefore appears that corporal punishment is being justified because it has been around for over 2000 years. I then responded, hyperbolically, that although rape and murder has also been around since before Jesus, I would not use this argument to support a behavior.

 

I think only a moran would compare 'typical' corporal punishment to rape or murder. If you think me that stupid, why would you engage in any debate/discussion with me?

[untateve]

doc, am i getting charged for this?

 

oh, and to explain my name calling. im just tired of people making up excuses about everything. blaming bad behavior on this or that. life isnt that complicated.

 

I agree with you in that I'm tired of people making up excuses. I'm tired of discussions/debates that take place on these boards deteriorating into name calling simply because individuals disagree and I'm tired of people making up excuses for this type of behavior. As you said, the case is closed for you. Therefore, I would assume you no longer have any desire to engage in discussion.

[cliaz]

I guess I could respond and ask you if you are intentionally missing my point.

 

I am not intentionally missing your point, I am asking you based on what you post. However, since your answer is a smart remark instead of continuing the civil conversation you and I were having (basically lumping me in with the people you are arguing with) I see any continuance of this topic will result in the usual banter and nothing more. Which is ashame since I was beginning to enjoy this topic.

[dmarc117]

I agree with you in that I'm tired of people making up excuses. I'm tired of discussions/debates that take place on these boards deteriorating into name calling simply because individuals disagree and I'm tired of people making up excuses for this type of behavior. As you said, the case is closed for you. Therefore, I would assume you no longer have any desire to engage in discussion.

 

 

why continue to reply if you think your assumption is correct? why reply to me if youre so sick of these discussions? just let it go, dont get so upset.

[untateve]

I am not intentionally missing your point, I am asking you based on what you post. However, since your answer is a smart remark instead of continuing the civil conversation you and I were having (basically lumping me in with the people you are arguing with) I see any continuance of this topic will result in the usual banter and nothing more. Which is ashame since I was beginning to enjoy this topic.

 

Did you really think that there was a possibility that I was comparing rape and murder to corporal punishment? Really?

[The Irish Doggy]

heres my evidence......generations of past knew respect and how to act properly. and they were beaten. generations x and y are a bunch of buck heads that werent beaten because of all the pc momos. case settled.

 

 

Your attitude seems to proceed from an assumption that the essential component of discipline is a good spanking. I propose that the kids you observed are misbehaving not because they received so few swats, but because they don't receive the right kind of discipline or no discipline at all. As TimC illustrated, there are other ways to make a point. Now, I'm not saying that the anti-spanking movement has been a complete success. Perhaps the one failure of the anti-spanking movement over the years lies in the failure to educate parents on alternatives. That kind of initiative takes more time to get rolling.

 

Something else to consider - your perception may not be reality. It is a common human bias to remember unusual events in life and think that they are more common that reality. Thus, the incidents of kids acting a fool in stores and restaurants are more memorable than the times when kids politely went about their day. It is also a common bias to remember our younger years with rose colored glasses. Take that and note that this study suggests those same misbehaving kids are likely to be the the progeny of parents that spank. Perhaps the case is not closed.

Edited April 13, 2010 by The Irish Doggy

[cliaz]

Did you really think that there was a possibility that I was comparing rape and murder to corporal punishment? Really?

 

 

That is why I asked you. I've had people in the past do that exact same thing in a very similar conversation. (Black and White with no Grey) And for the record, you are comparing things that have been around since before Jesus. So yes, you were comparing the validity of corporal punishment, rape, and murder before the birth of Jesus. Don't lump me in with the people who have attacked you on this issue or been aggressive. I was having a genuine conversation with you.

 

And to extrapolate on this, you are basing your opinion on corporal punishment by way of Ethnocentrism. In many cultures, it is perfectly acceptable and part of life. There is no right or wrong on this issue. Who are we to say it is wrong? How do you base the assessment that spanking a child is wrong? Just as I can I or other say it isn’t wrong? We can’t and no one can. It is a formulate opinion base on your own upbringing, family situation, personal religious and political views, and your own methods for being a parent.

 

Now if you were to conduct a sociological study on the behavior of children abused, that is different.

[untateve]

That is why I asked you. I've had people in the past do that exact same thing in a very similar conversation. (Black and White with no Grey) And for the record, you are comparing things that have been around since before Jesus. So yes, you were comparing the validity of corporal punishment, rape, and murder before the birth of Jesus. Don't lump me in with the people who have attacked you on this issue or been aggressive. I was having a genuine conversation with you.

 

And to extrapolate on this, you are basing your opinion on corporal punishment by way of Ethnocentrism. In many cultures, it is perfectly acceptable and part of life. There is no right or wrong on this issue. Who are we to say it is wrong? How do you base the assessment that spanking a child is wrong? Just as I can I or other say it isn’t wrong? We can’t and no one can. It is a formulate opinion base on your own upbringing, family situation, personal religious and political views, and your own methods for being a parent.

 

Now if you were to conduct a sociological study on the behavior of children abused, that is different.

 

Again, I was NOT comparing the "validity of corporal punishment, rape, and murder before the birth of Jesus." I was asserting that it was a flawed argument to posit that because a behavior (i.e., corporal punishment) has been around since before Jesus, it is automatically one to be emulated, accepted, or approved. I then used the hyperbolic examples of rape and murder to illustrate my point that just because a behavior has been around for thousands of years, this does not make it a good thing.

 

As to your second question: I do believe that there is a "right and wrong" on this issue. That is my belief. Do I know with certainty that I am correct? Of course not. I simply believe that I am correct.

 

I worked in an after school program years ago. One of my co-workers was older and her 8 yr old son was a child in the program. For some reason, in front of his mother, he hit another boy. She immediately smacked him on the arm with her hand and in a raised voice said, "Don't hit people!" I found this funny. She was teaching him not to hit people by hitting him.

 

In my view, spanking is a violent act. Others, of course, will disagree. I think that by using a violent act in order to discipline children, we are teaching them that violent acts are an acceptable manner in which to change the behavior of others. Are you aware that many parents who physically abuse their children were themselves physically abused when they were children (and I'm not asserting that corporal punishment and physical abuse are the same--just showing that children learn what is acceptable from their parents and how to interact with others from their parents). If my child were to become a bully and hit his peers, I wonder what I'm teaching him if I spank him each time he hits one of his peers?

 

If my son were to tell my wife to shut up, I could spank him. He might learn not to tell my wife to shut up. He might also learn that when he wants to control another person's behavior, hitting them is a good method for doing so.