This is why we can't ban guns...

[Avernus]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UQYZ25tUAM...amp;feature=sub

 

the content is clean except an F bomb is dropped near the end...

 

If I am unable to legally carry a gun, how am I supposed to defend myself against someone who doesn't care about upholding the law?

[westvirginia]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UQYZ25tUAM...amp;feature=sub

 

the content is clean except an F bomb is dropped near the end...

 

If I am unable to legally carry a gun, how am I supposed to defend myself against someone who doesn't care about upholding the law?

 

Avernus, you can't argue with those that have a phobia about an inanimate object. Phobias aren't rational, so they won't listen to reason.

[Avernus]

Avernus, you can't argue with those that have a phobia about an inanimate object. Phobias aren't rational, so they won't listen to reason.

 

exactly, I fear that a possible gun ban would make things worse because guns will still be just as available as they are now - they will just be illegal is all...

 

and that doesn't stop the crazies from being crazy....it just allows them to break a law, which is a plan they already have in mind anyways when they shoot up a school or a restaurant etc etc...

[billay]

Avernus, you can't argue with those that have a phobia about an inanimate object. Phobias aren't rational, so they won't listen to reason.

listen to reason

 

I've heard/seen this clip before. Its a sad story, and there are crazy people out there, but the odds of getting killed in a situation like the one described here are no greater than being involved in any other sort of tragic accident, and IMO don't justify a wholesale admission of guns into the public arena.

 

I don;t buy the argument that if this lady had had a gun she would have saved any more lives than might have been saved otherwise. The shooter in Texas was on an Army base. How many people were killed despite the presence of armed MP's?

 

Just because carrying a gun makes you feel more secure doesn't mean you in fact are more secure, or that any others around you are more secure. I honestly believe that there are enough incompetents/irresponsibles out there that granting them the unfettered right to open/concealed carry makes the public arena significantly less safe. Even in the face of being able to shoot/disarm an attacker like the one described in this clip, the instances of irresponsibility and accident will outnumber the opportunity for and lives saved by heroics.

 

Own as many guns as you like, that's your constitutionally protected right. Just keep them at home.

[Avernus]

listen to reason

 

I've heard/seen this clip before. Its a sad story, and there are crazy people out there, but the odds of getting killed in a situation like the one described here are no greater than being involved in any other sort of tragic accident, and IMO don't justify a wholesale admission of guns into the public arena.

 

I don;t buy the argument that if this lady had had a gun she would have saved any more lives than might have been saved otherwise. The shooter in Texas was on an Army base. How many people were killed despite the presence of armed MP's?

 

Just because carrying a gun makes you feel more secure doesn't mean you in fact are more secure, or that any others around you are more secure. I honestly believe that there are enough incompetents/irresponsibles out there that granting them the unfettered right to open/concealed carry makes the public arena significantly less safe. Even in the face of being able to shoot/disarm an attacker like the one described in this clip, the instances of irresponsibility and accident will outnumber the opportunity for and lives saved by heroics.

 

Own as many guns as you like, that's your constitutionally protected right. Just keep them at home.

 

 

So out the window goes the option of defending myself? Sorry Billay, I can't agree with that assessment...

[billay]

So out the window goes the option of defending myself? Sorry Billay, I can't agree with that assessment...

It not about defending yourself, its about the likelihood of you having to do so. In a situation like the one you linked, you are just as likely to be killed whether you carry a weapon or not. Maybe you were killed by the truck crashing through the window, or maybe you were shot before you even realized that the guy was a threat. My point is that over the course of a lifetime, the odds that someone will die because of an unintended shooting that came about as a result of an armed general populace is greater than the odds of being involved in one of these outbreaks of violence.

Edited April 15, 2010 by billay

[i_am_the_swammi]

So out the window goes the option of defending myself? Sorry Billay, I can't agree with that assessment...

 

When you deciding to "defend" yourself potentially puts me and my family at risk....it becomes my problem.

 

This is not direted at you personall, Av....I'm not saying you can't use, and secure when needed, your weapons....if you are trained correctly and are trustworthy enough to keep your weapons locked up, then I have no problem with you arming yourself.

 

problem is, I'd bet 50+% of gun owners lack the sophistication and responsibility, and it puts the rest of the population at risk.

 

I also think every gun owner should be required to make it known they keep guns in their home. The fact that any of my kids could be playing at a friend's home, and me not knowing their house has weapons in it, is troubling.

[dmarc117]

as much as i agree with owning guns, i too think that they should be kept at home.

[Caveman_Nick]

I also think every gun owner should be required to make it known they keep guns in their home. The fact that any of my kids could be playing at a friend's home, and me not knowing their house has weapons in it, is troubling.

 

Why not just hang a sign out from that says "Steal your illegally owned guns here"?

 

If you want to know if someone has firearms in a home your kids are playing at, ask. There's no reason for people to have to give out private information to everyone.

[The Holy Roller]

as much as i agree with owning guns, i too think that they should be kept at home.

 

I think everyone should carry a gun. Thin the herd.

[TimC]

problem is, I'd bet 50+% of gun owners lack the sophistication and responsibility, and it puts the rest of the population at risk.

 

I'd put the number much higher. Why do you think gun owners like to hunt deer and turkey so much? Because they are intellectually challenged by them.

[Furd]

I agree with many of swammi's points. That being said, I own guns, and I carry a handgun on occasion. I think that the odds of me having to use the handgun to defend myself are right up there with the odds of being struck by lightning.

 

The real reason why guns can't be "banned" is that, as we saw with prohibition, enacting an unenforceable law is dumb. Criminals will ignore it. Moreover, almost all law abiding gun owners will ignore it. I'm not a gun/second amendment zealot by any means, but I assure you that my guns aren't going anywhere, even if the law mandates that I turn them in at the nearest police station.

 

It ain't never going to happen. It amuses me when the gun zealots gnash their teeth over the possibility that it might.

[westvirginia]

When you deciding to "defend" yourself potentially puts me and my family at risk....it becomes my problem.

 

This is not direted at you personall, Av....I'm not saying you can't use, and secure when needed, your weapons....if you are trained correctly and are trustworthy enough to keep your weapons locked up, then I have no problem with you arming yourself.

 

problem is, I'd bet 50+% of gun owners lack the sophistication and responsibility, and it puts the rest of the population at risk.

 

I also think every gun owner should be required to make it known they keep guns in their home. The fact that any of my kids could be playing at a friend's home, and me not knowing their house has weapons in it, is troubling.

 

And you are exactly the person I had in mind when I wrote about the phobia. You have an irrational fear about an inanimate object. If you can't teach your kids not to mess with things that don't belong to you maybe YOU should keep them at home.

[i_am_the_swammi]

And you are exactly the person I had in mind when I wrote about the phobia. You have an irrational fear about an inanimate object. If you can't teach your kids not to mess with things that don't belong to you maybe YOU should keep them at home.

 

I don't have a phobia about guns. In fact, if you even read my post, I said I have no problem with guns as long as they are registered and kept locked and secure.

 

But your point borders on ludicrus. I can teach my kids fine, thank you very much. What i can't protect them from is another parent that hasn't taught their own kids not to mess with with things. Or potentially,worse, has trained their kid how to use the gun, and overestimated their kid's maturity in how to act around guns when a parent is not present. We have all seen too many accidents of kids shooting other kids accidentally. I bet many of these accidental shooters were kids that were taught how to use a weapon, then tried to show off their knowledge when daddy wasn't home.

 

Shouln't I have the right to know if my next door neighbor has weapons? Shouldn't I have the right to know if my kids might be playing in another home where those weapons aren't secure? if I ask that parent (as Nick suggested), do you really think that parent is going to be forthcoming if indeed he doesn't keep them secured?

 

Edit: Hypothetical: suppose cocaine was legal. Would you want your child around it, even if you taught them never to use it?

Edited April 15, 2010 by i_am_the_swammi

[westvirginia]

I don't have a phobia about guns. In fact, if you even read my post, I said I have no problem with guns as long as they are registered and kept locked and secure.

 

But your point borders on ludicrus. I can teach my kids fine, thank you very much. What i can't protect them from is another parent that hasn't taught their own kids not to mess with with things. Or potentially,worse, has trained their kid how to use the gun, and overestimated their kid's maturity in how to act around guns when a parent is not present. We have all seen too many accidents of kids shooting other kids accidentally. I bet many of these accidental shooters were kids that were taught how to use a weapon, then tried to show off their knowledge when daddy wasn't home.

 

Shouln't I have the right to know if my next door neighbor has weapons? Shouldn't I have the right to know if my kids might be playing in another home where those weapons aren't secure? if I ask that parent (as Nick suggested), do you really think that parent is going to be forthcoming if indeed he doesn't keep them secured?

 

Edit: Hypothetical: suppose cocaine was legal. Would you want your child around it, even if you taught them never to use it?

 

Sure. They'll be around it at some point in their lives, more than likely. Just like guns. No, you have NO RIGHT to know what someone else owns, that's a ludicrous, nanny-state, statement if I've ever heard one.

 

Another thing to consider, if you know who has weapons criminals do to. If I had you for a neighbor I'd probably put up one of those signs that says I respect your right not to own a firearm and won't use mine to defend you.

[detlef]

Did I miss something? Are we even remotely close to "banning" guns?

 

As for what degree we should control someone's ability to walk around with guns. I agree with Billay that more people with guns would make the streets more dangerous, not safer. Then again, more people with cars make the streets more dangerous, not safer. Allowing people to drink makes the streets more dangerous, not safer. Hell, more people who don't have a clue about raising kids having babies makes the streets more dangerous, not safer. So, honestly, I don't know exactly where to draw the line. Like cars, I would think that someone should have to take tests and what-not to get a gun, but I don't even know about that.

 

You can't legislate yourself safe from stupid people and, besides, I'm nearly certain that, like cars, they'd make the test so damned easy to pass that idiots with no sense at all would be able to legal carry guns around anyway. It's just that hippies like me would feel better about it because we'd think there was something in place to protect us. Ultimately, of course, it would be nearly, if not entirely useless.

Edited April 15, 2010 by detlef

[i_am_the_swammi]

Another thing to consider, if you know who has weapons criminals do to.

 

Exactly. So if those criminals needed a weapon, whose home do you think they are going to enter to steal one?

 

As many instances as their might be for disuading criminals from entering your home becuase you have weapons, there are likely as many that make you a target for robbery of those same weapons.

 

I've come a long way on my stance on weapons.....4-5 years ago, I was completely against them, and every once in a while, when I hear of a senseless death of a child because a gun owner didn't secure their weapons, it agitates me. But the views of many on this board have swayed me, and I do realize there is a place for gun ownership for those that can act and secure them responsibly.

 

i'd have no problem if, when I asked my neighbor if he owned guns, he replied "Yes, I have 12 weapons, but they are kept in a gun locker to which no one but myself and my wife have a key". I'd be totally comfortable with my child in their home, and likely feel even safer if he were there for a sleepover or something. Problem is, 90+% of gun owners wouldn't (or couldn't) answer that question that way. And the anxiousness it creates for those that just want their kids to be safe is tough to handle.

 

My kids go to other kids homes all the time. Are those homes safe? Are their unsecure guns there? drugs? porn? I have no idea, and its not my business to ask the parents.

 

it sucks.

Edited April 15, 2010 by i_am_the_swammi

[Avernus]

alright, people assume I mean that anyone should be able to go to a gun store, buy a gun and walk around with it - either that or they deliberately misinterpret common sense to support their argument..

 

do I really have to state that you should need a license to carry a gun to actually carry one? This isn't exactly the wild west over here...but I do live in Philadelphia where high schools are teeming with kids that carry guns and even crack jokes on other kids who don't carry a gun..

 

I want to be able to carry a gun legally when I have a license to carry and have the option to do so.....because the more people with guns and not having a license to carry would lead to chaos.

 

and as I already stated, I live in Philadelphia and it might as well be the wild west at times....I want to be able to at least defend myself and my silver/gold collection (shoutout to billay for that one)

[Avernus]

Exactly. So if those criminals needed a weapon, whose home do you think they are going to enter to steal one?

 

As many instances as their might be for disuading criminals from entering your home becuase you have weapons, there are likely as many that make you a target for robbery of those same weapons.

 

I've come a long way on my stance on weapons.....4-5 years ago, I was completely against them, and every once in a while, when I hear of a senseless death of a child because a gun owner didn't secure their weapons, it agitates me. But the views of many on this board have swayed me, and I do realize there is a place for gun ownership for those that can act and secure them responsibly.

 

i'd have no problem if, when I asked my neighbor if he owned guns, he replied "Yes, I have 12 weapons, but they are kept in a gun locker to which no one but myself and my wife have a key". I'd be totally comfortable with my child in their home, and likely feel even safer if he were there for a sleepover or something. Problem is, 90+% of gun owners wouldn't (or couldn't) answer that question that way. And the anxiousness it creates for those that just want their kids to be safe is tough to handle.

 

My kids go to other kids homes all the time. Are those homes safe? Are their unsecure guns there? drugs? porn? I have no idea, and its not my business to ask the parents.

 

it sucks.

 

 

exactly!

 

If you secure your weapons in your home in a location where a child can not get their hands on them - this is the way to go...

 

but if you keep a gun in your drawer and another under the bed

[Avernus]

Did I miss something? Are we even remotely close to "banning" guns?

 

As for what degree we should control someone's ability to walk around with guns. I agree with Billay that more people with guns would make the streets more dangerous, not safer. Then again, more people with cars make the streets more dangerous, not safer. Allowing people to drink makes the streets more dangerous, not safer. Hell, more people who don't have a clue about raising kids having babies makes the streets more dangerous, not safer. So, honestly, I don't know exactly where to draw the line. Like cars, I would think that someone should have to take tests and what-not to get a gun, but I don't even know about that.

 

You can't legislate yourself safe from stupid people and, besides, I'm nearly certain that, like cars, they'd make the test so damned easy to pass that idiots with no sense at all would be able to legal carry guns around anyway. It's just that hippies like me would feel better about it because we'd think there was something in place to protect us. Ultimately, of course, it would be nearly, if not entirely useless.

 

 

there has been strong movement over the years in the banning of guns....and with the US heading closer (if it isn't already) to depression, people with guns that are suffering will be acting out...

 

and refer to my response two posts ago about the rest...

[westvirginia]

Did I miss something? Are we even remotely close to "banning" guns?

 

As for what degree we should control someone's ability to walk around with guns. I agree with Billay that more people with guns would make the streets more dangerous, not safer. Then again, more people with cars make the streets more dangerous, not safer. Allowing people to drink makes the streets more dangerous, not safer. Hell, more people who don't have a clue about raising kids having babies makes the streets more dangerous, not safer. So, honestly, I don't know exactly where to draw the line. Like cars, I would think that someone should have to take tests and what-not to get a gun, but I don't even know about that.

 

You can't legislate yourself safe from stupid people and, besides, I'm nearly certain that, like cars, they'd make the test so damned easy to pass that idiots with no sense at all would be able to legal carry guns around anyway. It's just that hippies like me would feel better about it because we'd think there was something in place to protect us. Ultimately, of course, it would be nearly, if not entirely useless.

 

detlef, though we disagree often your logic is damned near flawless here. The only problem I see is the bolded statement. A quick google search will show a state enacting shall-issue concealed carry laws decreases crime, not increases it.

[Caveman_Nick]

I don't have a phobia about guns. In fact, if you even read my post, I said I have no problem with guns as long as they are registered and kept locked and secure.

 

But your point borders on ludicrus. I can teach my kids fine, thank you very much. What i can't protect them from is another parent that hasn't taught their own kids not to mess with with things. Or potentially,worse, has trained their kid how to use the gun, and overestimated their kid's maturity in how to act around guns when a parent is not present. We have all seen too many accidents of kids shooting other kids accidentally. I bet many of these accidental shooters were kids that were taught how to use a weapon, then tried to show off their knowledge when daddy wasn't home.

 

Shouln't I have the right to know if my next door neighbor has weapons? Shouldn't I have the right to know if my kids might be playing in another home where those weapons aren't secure? if I ask that parent (as Nick suggested), do you really think that parent is going to be forthcoming if indeed he doesn't keep them secured?

 

Edit: Hypothetical: suppose cocaine was legal. Would you want your child around it, even if you taught them never to use it?

 

There are risks in life. If you don't trust your neighbor to be honest with you then don't let your kids over there. You want to be able to mitigate your risks by controlling other people's actions. It's just not possible to do that. That's why conduct controlling laws are generally ineffective.

[westvirginia]

Exactly. So if those criminals needed a weapon, whose home do you think they are going to enter to steal one?

 

As many instances as their might be for disuading criminals from entering your home becuase you have weapons, there are likely as many that make you a target for robbery of those same weapons.

 

I've come a long way on my stance on weapons.....4-5 years ago, I was completely against them, and every once in a while, when I hear of a senseless death of a child because a gun owner didn't secure their weapons, it agitates me. But the views of many on this board have swayed me, and I do realize there is a place for gun ownership for those that can act and secure them responsibly.

 

i'd have no problem if, when I asked my neighbor if he owned guns, he replied "Yes, I have 12 weapons, but they are kept in a gun locker to which no one but myself and my wife have a key". I'd be totally comfortable with my child in their home, and likely feel even safer if he were there for a sleepover or something. Problem is, 90+% of gun owners wouldn't (or couldn't) answer that question that way. And the anxiousness it creates for those that just want their kids to be safe is tough to handle.

 

My kids go to other kids homes all the time. Are those homes safe? Are their unsecure guns there? drugs? porn? I have no idea, and its not my business to ask the parents.

 

it sucks.

 

Actually, couple points:

 

I'm glad you realize you have no business knowing stuff about others necessarily - a point of agreement.

 

Think about your very first statement - they might come to my house when no one is home to steal a weapon. They then take said weapon to your house when you ARE THERE, since they know you don't have any.

 

And you really don't know enough gun owners if you think 90% of them are unsafe. There are over 200 million guns in circulation in the US. That's one for every 2/3 of a person living here (roughly). Do you truly think it's by the grace of God that only a few hundred negligent discharges happen yearly? Most gun owners I know have a safe or locker, or at least a locking cabinet that would discourage a child who wasn't a thieving buggar anyway.

[Caveman_Nick]

My kids go to other kids homes all the time. Are those homes safe? Are their unsecure guns there? drugs? porn? I have no idea, and its not my business to ask the parents.

 

Swammi, on this I just have to vehemently disagree. IMO as a responsible parent it is imperative that you (or your wife) be familiar with the environment in which your kids will be spending time. If your child's friends parents aren't receptive to meeting you, having you over, etc., so you will be comfy having your kids over their house then why would you send them there?

 

It's kind of a paradox. It seems like people are much more interested in having some law that prohibits XYZ than in getting into the "trenches" and going over to Mrs. Cleaver's house to meet her and find out that the kids will have a fun and safe time there.

[geeteebee]

My kids go to other kids homes all the time. Are those homes safe? Are their unsecure guns there? drugs? porn? I have no idea, and its not my business to ask the parents.

 

it sucks.

 

 

I totally disagree with this statement. I think it is entirely your business to ask the parents. No different than asking is an adult will be at home. If I was concerned about the items above, there is no doubt I would ask. I have asked a neighbor who had recently returned from a hunting trip if his rifles were accessable because, even though he is a very good dad, I felt it my duty as a parent to make sure I asked the question before allowing my kid to play there. The guy took no disrepect by the question.

 

Now, on the porn and drugs issue I doubt you'll get an honest answer, but on the gun question, I think you will.