greece burning

[TimC]

It's kinda funny that this Euro crap barely lasted 15 years despite every economist on the planet saying it's a good idea. I swear Germany ought to take over the whole continent and we should help them.

[dmarc117]

It's kinda funny that this Euro crap barely lasted 15 years despite every economist on the planet saying it's a good idea. I swear Germany ought to take over the whole continent and we should help them.

 

 

they tried that already

[bushwacked]

 

...like there's just one of them.

 

Well, one is extremely more adept and experienced at using it.That is undeniable and blatantly obvious.

[Ursa Majoris]

they tried that already

Twice

[TimC]

Germany hasn't tried it with our help. Seriously, just look at their housing situation. Who lives in a dump like that?

 

 

 

 

 

It's almost as bad as Michigan.

[Azazello1313]

Well, one is extremely more adept and experienced at using it.That is undeniable and blatantly obvious.

 

right. if we don't pass this trillion dollar pork bill, the ENTIRE ECONOMY WILL COLLAPSE! if we don't make the auto industry a ward of the state, it will DESTROY AMERICAN MANUFACTURING ONCE AND FOR ALL!! if arizona cops can ask people for ID on traffic stops, WE HAVE BECOME NAZI GERMANY!!!

 

and then of course there's global warming...

 

but no, to raise concern about the spreading sovereign debt crisis hanging over europe and our exposure in the not-so-distant future, THAT is the real fear-mongering.

Edited May 11, 2010 by Azazello1313

[Perchoutofwater]

right. if we don't pass this trillion dollar pork bill, the ENTIRE ECONOMY WILL COLLAPSE! if we don't make the auto industry a ward of the state, it will DESTROY AMERICAN MANUFACTURING ONCE AND FOR ALL!! if arizona cops can ask people for ID on traffic stops, WE HAVE BECOME NAZI GERMANY!!!

 

and then of course there's global warming...

 

but no, to raise concern about the spreading sovereign debt crisis hanging over europe and our exposure in the not-so-distant future, THAT is the real fear-mongering.

 

Ouch! That's going to leave a mark.

[Azazello1313]

It really does seem like the crises just keep getting bigger: Wall St., Greece, then what? Italy?

 

My point: One bailout seems to lead to another, but bailouts have to stop eventually. What begins as "too big to fail" eventually becomes "too big to save." So here's my question: Where will the line be drawn? Who's going to be in the water when the "sink or swim" verdict finally comes in?

[SEC=UGA]

It's kinda funny that this Euro crap barely lasted 15 years despite every economist on the planet saying it's a good idea. I swear Germany ought to take over the whole continent and we should help them.

 

Roll the Panzers...

[bushwacked]

right. if we don't pass this trillion dollar pork bill, the ENTIRE ECONOMY WILL COLLAPSE! if we don't make the auto industry a ward of the state, it will DESTROY AMERICAN MANUFACTURING ONCE AND FOR ALL!! if arizona cops can ask people for ID on traffic stops, WE HAVE BECOME NAZI GERMANY!!!

 

and then of course there's global warming...

 

but no, to raise concern about the spreading sovereign debt crisis hanging over europe and our exposure in the not-so-distant future, THAT is the real fear-mongering.

 

I think you're a tad bit confused.

[Ursa Majoris]

It really does seem like the crises just keep getting bigger: Wall St., Greece, then what? Italy?

 

My point: One bailout seems to lead to another, but bailouts have to stop eventually. What begins as "too big to fail" eventually becomes "too big to save." So here's my question: Where will the line be drawn? Who's going to be in the water when the "sink or swim" verdict finally comes in?

 

In the case of the Greeks, it isn't them that needs to be saved (on the contrary, they need a good kicking) but in the Euro everyone is tied together by a rope so they are, in effect, saving themselves. They let the basket case in and now they have to save it or go down themselves.

[westvirginia]

And don't forget "if you don't vote democrat, you're SS, medicare and food stamps will go away." And "Reagan is provoking the Soviets into a nuclear war!"... The wheels are coming off for the obamessiah and it ain't pretty...

 

right. if we don't pass this trillion dollar pork bill, the ENTIRE ECONOMY WILL COLLAPSE! if we don't make the auto industry a ward of the state, it will DESTROY AMERICAN MANUFACTURING ONCE AND FOR ALL!! if arizona cops can ask people for ID on traffic stops, WE HAVE BECOME NAZI GERMANY!!!

 

and then of course there's global warming...

 

but no, to raise concern about the spreading sovereign debt crisis hanging over europe and our exposure in the not-so-distant future, THAT is the real fear-mongering.

[Ursa Majoris]

And "Reagan is provoking the Soviets into a nuclear war!"... The wheels are coming off for the obamessiah and it ain't pretty...

Yep. Obama said that at the last White House press conference.

 

 

Oh wait......

[bushwacked]

I think you're a tad bit confused.

 

Along with others.

[westvirginia]

Yep. Obama said that at the last White House press conference.

 

 

Oh wait......

 

I was throwing that one in there because the line about SS/medicare has been around for 40 years. I notice you didn't bring that up though...

[Azazello1313]

greek unions threatening a strike

[Savage Beatings]

"The IMF will not stop thirsting for workers' blood," said Yannis Panagopoulos, chairman of Greece's main private sector labour union GSEE. "Its recipes are a disaster and the government must turn them down."

 

Do you think Yannis really believes this? I imagine that he issues his insane statements and then gets on the phone with his other labor union buddies and just cracks up at the utter crap that has just spewed from his mouth.

[Perchoutofwater]

Do you think Yannis really believes this? I imagine that he issues his insane statements and then gets on the phone with his other labor union buddies and just cracks up at the utter crap that has just spewed from his mouth.

 

Do you think he is anymore insane than your typical union guy here in the US? When will liberal idiots realize if you keep biting the hand the hand that feeds you, eventually you quit getting fed.

[westvirginia]

Do you think he is anymore insane than your typical union guy here in the US? When will liberal idiots realize if you keep biting the hand the hand that feeds you, eventually you quit getting fed.

 

That's why statists love big gov't - they want to be able to use force to keep the grub coming...

[Ursa Majoris]

Do you think he is anymore insane than your typical union guy here in the US? When will liberal idiots realize if you keep biting the hand the hand that feeds you, eventually you quit getting fed.

 

 

That's why statists love big gov't - they want to be able to use force to keep the grub coming...

 

Can't you two get a room?

[BeeR]

Just once, can we not digress into another "it's all the other side's fault" pile of kiddie spittle?

I knew I could count on you guys.

 

[driveby]

Crony Capitalism: From GM to Greece, the Lies Keep Growing

By George Will

 

WASHINGTON -- To understand the pertinence to America of events in Greece, notice General Motors' most recent misbehavior. A television commercial featuring CEO Ed Whitacre demonstrates the institutional murkiness and intellectual dishonesty that result when the line between public and private sectors disappears.

 

In the commercial, Whitacre says GM has "repaid our government loan in full." Rep. Paul Ryan, R-Wis., noted that GM used government funds to pay back the government: It "simply transferred $6.7 billion from one taxpayer-funded TARP account to another." The government still owns 60.8 percent of GM's common equity, and the Congressional Budget Office projects that the government will lose about $34 billion of the $82 billion of TARP funds dispersed to the automotive industry.

 

When Ryan and two colleagues asked the Treasury Department for clarification, they got this careful reply: "Treasury has never suggested that the loan repayment represented a full return of all government assistance." A Treasury press release did say "GM Repays Treasury Loan in Full." The loan is, however, a small part of taxpayer exposure. Under crony capitalism, when government and corporate America merge, both dissemble.

 

Now American taxpayers also own a little bit of a small nation. They provide the U.S. contribution of 17 percent of the assets of the International Monetary Fund, which is giving Greece $39 billion (the IMF also is contributing $321 billion to a "stabilization" fund for other eurozone nations with debt problems). So the U.S. government, which would borrow 42 cents of every dollar it spends under the president's 2011 budget, is borrowing to rescue Greece and others from the consequences of their borrowing.

 

That nation, whose GDP is below that of the Dallas-Fort Worth metropolitan area, is "too big to fail," meaning too inconveniently connected to too many big banks. Bailing out Greece really rescues European banks that improvidently bought Greek bonds. Visit here for a useful New York Times graphic illustrating how European nations borrow from one another. For example, Italy owes France (French banks) $511 billion, a sum nearly equal to 20 percent of France's GDP. About one-third of Portugal's debt is held by Spain, which has $238 billion of its debt held by Germany and $220 billion by France. Russell Roberts of George Mason University notes that this "discourages prudence and wariness" because when "everyone has financed everyone else, you can justify bailing everyone out."

 

At the Parthenon last week, the Greek Communist Party, which got 8 percent of the vote in the last national election, draped banners emblazoned with the hammer and sickle: "Peoples of Europe Rise Up." Of course. "Arise ye prisoners of starvation" exhorts "The Internationale," the left's ancient anthem. But who is to arise against whom?

 

Time was, the European left said it spoke for horny-handed sons of toil oppressed in dark Satanic mills. But Athens' so-called "anti-government mobs" have been composed mostly of government employees going berserk about threats to their entitlements. Even Greek air force pilots went on strike. The government, unable to say how many employees it has, promises to count them. It cannot fire many of them because article 103, paragraph 4 of the Greek constitution says: "Civil servants holding posts provided by law shall be permanent so long as these posts exist."

 

America's projected $9.7 trillion in budget deficits in this decade will drive the nation's debt to 90 percent of GDP (Greece's is 124 percent). So some people say that to avoid a Greek-style crisis, America should adopt a value-added tax (VAT). But Europe's most troubled nations -- the PIIGS: Portugal, Ireland, Italy, Greece and Spain -- have VATs of 20 percent, 21 percent, 20 percent, 21 percent and 16 percent, respectively. As part of its austerity penance, the Greek government is going to give itself more money by raising its VAT to 23 percent.

 

Germans are furious about being the biggest bailers in this bailout of a nation where tax evasion is pandemic. They have not been assuaged by being told by their chancellor, Angela Merkel, that the stakes are stupendous: Their money will save "Europe." Hearing that, Greeks bearing banners proclaiming "Out with the IMF" might think:

 

Why accept "austerity" (as that is understood in Greece -- no more annual bonuses of two months' salary, no more retirement at 53)? Suppose, after pocketing some of the bailout, we just threaten to collapse and make a mess of "Europe"?

 

Greece now knows the terrific strength of weakness. Beware of Greeks -- or any other people -- receiving gifts.

[SeductiveNun]

Now American taxpayers also own a little bit of a small nation. They provide the U.S. contribution of 17 percent of the assets of the International Monetary Fund, which is giving Greece $39 billion (the IMF also is contributing $321 billion to a "stabilization" fund for other eurozone nations with debt problems). So the U.S. government, which would borrow 42 cents of every dollar it spends under the president's 2011 budget, is borrowing to rescue Greece and others from the consequences of their borrowing.

 

I claim a spot on the beach!