Biting your lip

[Big F'n Dave]

Good service is good service, regardless of any arrangement the customer and caterer have. I tip good service.

[Bier Meister]

Good service is good service, regardless of any arrangement the customer and caterer have. I tip good service.

 

 

i do too.

[whomper]

Our place does not have built in gratuities for the bartenders/wait staff at these parties. My friend recently had his wedding at our place so i know for a fact that the only built in gratuity is for the Maitre D. If our place ever eliminated tips completely and didnt compensate us handsomely in our shift pay , or require the host to tip when negotiating the party, they would lose every bartender that they currently employ.

 

I also do private parties and when I negotiate with a host I offer them 2 rates. One with and one without a tip jar. The split is pretty even as far as which option they select. Some people say screw it put the tip jar out and good luck . Others say they will take care of the tip and when i do those parties and a person tries to tip me I refuse and tell them I was fully compensated by the host of the party

 

At the place I work it is actually very rare that a party host comes up to us at the end of the night and gives a gratuity for all of us. I worked one party where the Dad of the groom gave us 100 at the end of the night. I have heard of parties in opur place where the Dad gave 100 each to 4 bartenders at the end of the night

 

Kosher weddings are the only weddings where the hosts are adamant to our banquet managers that none of us accept tips. In this case it depends who the manager is on the party. There are 4 managers at our place. 3 of them dont tip you out in that case and they just let you lump it with your shift pay and 1 of them actually tips us all out at the end of the night.

 

Ours shift pay is 10 bucks an hour. You usually clear , in shift pay, about 65 per shift. To me, and every bartender there as we have all discussed it, we wouldnt work there if tips were eliminated and there was no compenmsation in shift or tips built in by the host. Personally 65 bucks wouldnt be worth it for me to miss out on the family things I miss by working on weekends and sometimes working 7 days a week.

 

The tipping is very hit or miss to be honest with you. We pool our tips. If you work the big room you share tips with 3 other bartenders plus 10% of the over all take goes to the bar back. If you work the small room you share with 2 other bartenders plus 10% going to the bar back. I guess it all balances out in the long run. I have done parties where we have made 4 dollars each in tips at this place and i have had parties where we made 280

each in tips.

[Bier Meister]

whomp...i think you handle yourself well. your club's policy is abnormal. it's a shame that it is the norm to have guest expect to pay at such functions.

[billay]

With all due respect, that's just an ass-backwards line of reasoning.

Admittedly it's not a commonly held notion, particularly here in the states, but it is held by some. Mostly, people just don;t understand the economics of the hospitality industry. We americans have more of a casual "pot luck" attitude to entertaining, that it is a shared responsibility, I'll bring the wine, you bring the desert, the host will cook the food and we'll all clean up afterwards. I think its more of a european thing to have the attitude that the guests should bear no responsibility for the event. Its a means of paying respect to the guest, and the guest pays respect to the host, by letting him do alll the work.

Edited July 19, 2010 by billay

[detlef]

At quite a few weddings, I have seen bartenders who meander around, bsing with each other as much as talking to the patrons, and are in no particular hurry to serve. They move in slow motion. The service doesn't come close to what I see at a pub. But I tip them anyway. That seems to make them have a alittle more hop in their step when I return for another drink.

 

Seems to me that in a pub, the management wants to sell more alchohol, while in a catering hall they seem to think every drink poured is money out of their pocket, which in a way, I suppose it is. I've seen very few catering hall bartenders who could hold a job at a pay bar. If there are several people waiting, they also have no clue as to who is next. I have often told them who was next, especially if it's a kid waiting for a coke. I've gotten some dirty looks for that not only from the bartender, but frm the jerk he was about to serve too, while theywere ignoring the kid.

 

I guess they know the kid isn't going to tip them. Don't take it personal Whomp, I'm sure you don't fit my stereotype.

It is illegal in the state of NC to not have alcohol sold on a depletion basis. We can charge one price for food but must charge the client based on how much booze they go through. Thus, the banquet hall or other venue is very much interested in moving as much booze as they can. I don't know how it is in other states but I can't imagine ever allowing a client free run of the bar for a set cost even if I was allowed to. So, it may be open bar to you, the guest, but I doubt it's open bar to the guy picking up the tab.

[whomper]

At quite a few weddings, I have seen bartenders who meander around, bsing with each other as much as talking to the patrons, and are in no particular hurry to serve. They move in slow motion. The service doesn't come close to what I see at a pub. But I tip them anyway. That seems to make them have a alittle more hop in their step when I return for another drink.

 

Seems to me that in a pub, the management wants to sell more alchohol, while in a catering hall they seem to think every drink poured is money out of their pocket, which in a way, I suppose it is. I've seen very few catering hall bartenders who could hold a job at a pay bar. If there are several people waiting, they also have no clue as to who is next. I have often told them who was next, especially if it's a kid waiting for a coke. I've gotten some dirty looks for that not only from the bartender, but frm the jerk he was about to serve too, while theywere ignoring the kid.

 

I guess they know the kid isn't going to tip them. Don't take it personal Whomp, I'm sure you don't fit my stereotype.

 

 

I dont take this personal. You make great points. Your point above is an internal problem among bartenders at my place as well as a problem for the guests. We have certain guys that dont carry their weight during a shift. You actually dread when they are on the shift but they are usually our senior bartenders and you really cant pipe up .

 

I also agree about the knowing who is next problem. There are some parties where you just get absolutely 100% slammed and you can barely get your head out of the well. Our places hosts a Pipefitters Union party every year. 720 pipe fitters. The cocktail hour was like the beginning of Saving Private Ryan for the bartenders. At one point I was laying on the ground sucking my thumb as the gun shot coors light on my head. The busiest party I ever worked. For us , cocktail hour is always the busiest because its the only place to get a drink. Once the cocktail party ends the guests go to the dining room for the reception and some of them stay there and use the table service while others come back out to the bar for drinks

Edited July 19, 2010 by whomper

[T_bone65]

The younger Whomper would have shown this guy his pimp hand in a heartbeat, while doing the guys mom in the ass. The older Whomper handles this situation with class, while just thinking about using his pimp hand and wanting to do the guys mom in the ass. I always tip at an open bar, but that is just me.

[ljbrun]

Very interesting thread. I've gotta admit that since I've never known if the host is/isn't covering gratuities, I've always tipped as if I was buying drinks on a regular night out. Whether there's a tip jar or not, I've never had a bartender say "Thank you sir, but we're fully compensated and tipping isn't required."

 

So how would you know if it's a regular tipping situation or a discretionary tipping situation?

 

OTOH, it would never occur to me to leave a tip for the meal servers at one of these functions.

[Kid Cid]

I feel for ya Whomp, there is nothing worse than a drunk Adam's Apple with an attitude. You handled it very well and yes, I will tip at an open bar.

[Ursa Majoris]

I feel for ya Whomp, there is nothing worse than a drunk Adam's Apple with an attitude. You handled it very well and yes, I will tip at an open bar.

I agree with BFD, I tip for service. If the bartender refuses (as has happened) then no harm, no foul.

 

As for the customer service aspect of this thread, I'm with TimC. Most people suck and are to be despised. I'd have hit him over the head with something heavy within 5 seconds. I've never worked anywhere where I had to interact directly with the public in a customer service mode and wouldn't have lasted two minutes if I had.

Edited July 19, 2010 by Ursa Majoris

[billay]

Very interesting thread. I've gotta admit that since I've never known if the host is/isn't covering gratuities, I've always tipped as if I was buying drinks on a regular night out. Whether there's a tip jar or not, I've never had a bartender say "Thank you sir, but we're fully compensated and tipping isn't required."

 

So how would you know if it's a regular tipping situation or a discretionary tipping situation?

 

OTOH, it would never occur to me to leave a tip for the meal servers at one of these functions.

This is my own opinion (which is clearly not shared, so take it for what it's worth). Weddings, in general, are no tip affairs. If there is a cash bar at a wedding, then tipping is appropriate and expected, because the bar is the exception. (Some would argue that having a cash bar at a wedding is a astronomical breach of etiquette, but that's a whole other conversation.) Anytime you are paying for the goods, you are also paying for the service associated with it.

 

Most establishments turn a blind eye to tip jars, even when their purported policy is against them. Some server/bartenders will actually put them out, knowing they are against the rules. In general, servers are mercinaries and management walks a fine line between keeping them in line and placating them. Most mgmt is too lenient. The only leverage they have is $$$, and where it's the same as other places, the mgmt can't push too hard or they will lose their staff. Where the money is good, however, the mgmt, should hold the staff to the highest standard. IMHO, if the bar is an open bar and there is a tip jar out, that reflects poorly on either the establishment or the host. Poorly for the establisment if the host is paying the bartenders, but allowing the guests to pay them more (which, in theory would be contrary to the host's wishes), or poorly on the host becuase it means they are springing for the booze, but not the staff who will be serving it. The host gets the benefit of the doubt.

 

To me, there's nothing classier than a service person who won't accept your tip. Yes, its rare, but it represents that the server understands that there is an honest wage to be paid for everything and that his requirements have been met in this particular case. (Keep in mind, that if you ask a service person to do anything for you that is above and beyond the usual call of their duties, then you should tip them for it.)

Edited July 19, 2010 by billay

[Square]

Some people are smug condescending d bags .

You know I can read this right? Seriously, you could at least talk about me behind my back.

 

Seriously though, I worked in "hospitality" for years and spent some time in a hotel where we did weddings. Typically, the building should have strict rules about whether a tip jar is allowed or not. If they allow it, than I think people can easily afford a buck every couple drinks. I don't tip like I would at a regular bar (because i know a regular bartender makes $2 an hour outside of tips). So I can see Billay's point but I think it is on management to either pay bartenders enough to work there and make them refuse tips or just let them put a tip jar out there and people will drop a few bucks. I've never heard of anyone saying that it is an insult to the wedding hosts, but some people can find a way to be offended at anything so who knows.

at this point I want to reach into his chest and pull his heart out and make him watch me hold his beating heart in my hand while I bang his mom in the ass as his life slips away

Dude, I'm so borrowing this one.

[dmarc117]

people are dbags

[Square]

I agree with BFD, I tip for service.

I tip female bartenders by the ratio of cup size to low neck line. Is that so wrong?

[Rovers]

It is illegal in the state of NC to not have alcohol sold on a depletion basis. We can charge one price for food but must charge the client based on how much booze they go through. Thus, the banquet hall or other venue is very much interested in moving as much booze as they can. I don't know how it is in other states but I can't imagine ever allowing a client free run of the bar for a set cost even if I was allowed to. So, it may be open bar to you, the guest, but I doubt it's open bar to the guy picking up the tab.

 

I don't know if the laws here have changed, it's been a long time since I got married and paid a catering hall, but back in 1980, we had options, and each option was based on a cost per head for the open bar, paid in advance. I think the prices ranged from $12 per guest to $25 per guest, depending on what liquor was to be served. Speed rack swill was the cheapest option with only one kind of beer, on tap.

 

Then if you wanted to serve decent stuff, Dewars, Smirnoff etc, there was another price. If you wanted top shelf, that was the most expensive, and would include some bottled imported beers. I suppose the catering halls had a pretty good idea of how much a typical wedding party would consume. The kids drinking coke cost as much as the alchoholic uncle would cost. I think there was also a charge for how many rolling bars there would be in the dining room.

[wiegie]

For discussion purposes: How many of you tip the server who brings the food to your table at a wedding? What is the theoretical difference between that person and the bartender at an "open bar" event?

[billay]

For discussion purposes: How many of you tip the server who brings the food to your table at a wedding? What is the theoretical difference between that person and the bartender at an "open bar" event?

None, except that the bartender has an opportunity to gouge that the server does not.

[Ursa Majoris]

I tip female bartenders by the ratio of cup size to low neck line. Is that so wrong?

If she bends over often, the "tip" goes up.......

[detlef]

I don't know if the laws here have changed, it's been a long time since I got married and paid a catering hall, but back in 1980, we had options, and each option was based on a cost per head for the open bar, paid in advance. I think the prices ranged from $12 per guest to $25 per guest, depending on what liquor was to be served. Speed rack swill was the cheapest option with only one kind of beer, on tap.

 

Then if you wanted to serve decent stuff, Dewars, Smirnoff etc, there was another price. If you wanted top shelf, that was the most expensive, and would include some bottled imported beers. I suppose the catering halls had a pretty good idea of how much a typical wedding party would consume. The kids drinking coke cost as much as the alchoholic uncle would cost. I think there was also a charge for how many rolling bars there would be in the dining room.

Oddly enough, I would imagine the NC law is there to not encourage people to "get their money's worth" and, as a result, get totally hammered. Of course, the fact that the host is paying more does nothing to dissuade their guests from going hog-wild, so there goes that theory. For all I know, NY still allows that sort of deal and I'm sure the guys who put these things on have been around the block enough times to know what to charge.

 

However, I would still prefer to simply keep it on depletion basis even if there was an option to do otherwise.

[whomper]

For discussion purposes: How many of you tip the server who brings the food to your table at a wedding? What is the theoretical difference between that person and the bartender at an "open bar" event?

 

 

It is a fair point and for some reason has to do with the beverage. We have table servers and beverage girls. The table servers give out mostly food and also run a lot of the cooking stations. They are also allowed to get drinks if there other responsibilities are covered. The beverage girls strictly handle beverages for the tables. They do better in tips than the table servers. Probably because they are usually pretty hot and have hugh cans. When I am at a wedding I leave a tip on the table for the table servers too.

[whomper]

None, except that the bartender has an opportunity to gouge that the server does not.

 

 

Gouge is a strong word. It could be about frequency of service and the needs of the guest too. I have people that come to the bar 10-20 times in a night. In some cases ordering multiple drinks (for the spouse etc) That is a person I could have made anywhere from 7-25 drinks (depending if they are ordering solo or not. There is a social aspect provided at the bar as well. This mainly holds true for the younger guests. Is that fair to the table server, no. But when you are hanging at the bar all night, unless food is being served, and your drinking with groups of friends or doing shots in big groups of friends you feel loose and you feel good and you may be inclined to throw the bartender a few bucks.

[whomper]

Gouge is a strong word. It could be about frequency of service and the needs of the guest too. I have people that come to the bar 10-20 times in a night. In some cases ordering multiple drinks (for the spouse etc) That is a person I could have made anywhere from 7-25 drinks (depending if they are ordering solo or not. There is a social aspect provided at the bar as well. This mainly holds true for the younger guests. Is that fair to the table server, no. But when you are hanging at the bar all night, unless food is being served, and your drinking with groups of friends or doing shots in big groups of friends you feel loose and you feel good and you may be inclined to throw the bartender a few bucks.

 

 

Flip side is guests that dont leave their table once the ballroom opens when cocktail hour is over. Those guests either drink table wine or water or use our wait staff all night for beverages.

[billay]

Gouge is a strong word. It could be about frequency of service and the needs of the guest too. I have people that come to the bar 10-20 times in a night. In some cases ordering multiple drinks (for the spouse etc) That is a person I could have made anywhere from 7-25 drinks (depending if they are ordering solo or not. There is a social aspect provided at the bar as well. This mainly holds true for the younger guests. Is that fair to the table server, no. But when you are hanging at the bar all night, unless food is being served, and your drinking with groups of friends or doing shots in big groups of friends you feel loose and you feel good and you may be inclined to throw the bartender a few bucks.

It is strong, but I only mean it in the sense that the issue was raised. Obviously, I'm opinionated on the matter. Generally I understand that people don't give much thought to these issues, but for me, there is an underlying philosophy behind the whole hospitality concept.

 

Bartenders tend to place themselves on a higher rung than servers, and its generally based on the idea that they fly solo (for the most part) and they develop more of a "relationship" with the guest than someone serving food does. People like a certain comraderie so far as alcohol is concerned. All of this may be true, but what I'm talking about has more to do with the understanding between the host and the guests. Where the host is paying for everything, the guest should be removed from the bartender/server tip equation, so far as their expectation goes. They are getting paid and the number and type of drinks should have nothing to do with it.

 

Having said that, there are plenty of circumstances where the establishment does not do right by their servers/bartenders and they are left to fend for themselves. Many patrons don't even think to ask about how the support staff will be compensated. That is why, as I mentioned before, a tip jar might get put out at an open bar, because even though the host is paying for the alcohol, the gratuity was not included for the bar staff, or was calculated too low. Then management allows the jar to make up for this. Management does this type of thing to keep cost estimates down in the hopes of winning the gig in the first place.

[detlef]

For discussion purposes: How many of you tip the server who brings the food to your table at a wedding? What is the theoretical difference between that person and the bartender at an "open bar" event?

Well, in fairness, banquets are a complete cake-walk for waiters. Their job description is literally cut in half (or more). They're nothing more than glorified food runners. No checks to manage, no selling or describing dishes, no worrying about timing or firing or getting their tables out because there's a wait at the door. Basically, they carry plates back and forth to and from the kitchen. Even if it's not buffet, everyone is getting virtually the same thing, save the entree where they may have a choice (and often have chosen ahead of time so there's a map that shows that).

 

Bartenders, on the other hand, are doing pretty much the same thing they do on a regular night at a restaurant. They still have to make drinks and manage a queue. So they absolutely should make more money.