The Frogs are Working Harder Protesting Having to work

[Perchoutofwater]

France hasn't done a damned thing for the US in the last 200 years. Having said that anyone that thinks that we would have won our independence from the British without their help is ignorant.

[Yukon Cornelius]

France hasn't done a damned thing for the US in the last 200 years. Having said that anyone that thinks that we would have won our independence from the British without their help is ignorant.

[Perchoutofwater]

[Pope Flick]

I don't know if an Imperial German (Prussian) victory under the Kaiser would have been a good thing 100 years ago. We've all forgotten that war, but France basically lost 1/3 of all men in a generation holding back the Hun, while we came out of our isolationist shell. That's certainly worth something, and also worth noting it was that war that basically took the will to fight from that country moving forward.

[Scooby's Hubby]

I don't know if an Imperial German (Prussian) victory under the Kaiser would have been a good thing 100 years ago. We've all forgotten that war, but France basically lost 1/3 of all men in a generation holding back the Hun, while we came out of our isolationist shell. That's certainly worth something, and also worth noting it was that war that basically took the will to fight from that country moving forward.

yeah, thanks Napolean!

 

this reminds me of the scene in Back to School where Sam Kinison is the professor...

 

seriously, you make a thought provoking point.

[Scooby's Hubby]

They died because they are soldiers and soldiers undertake a certain risk through their profession. At a higher level, however, they died because France and a large number of NATO and other nations agreed to support their major ally by providing troops to assist in Afghanistan (and Iraq). We can argue back and forth over whether that support has been sufficient or not but the bald fact is that those French soldiers died in Afghanistan because there is a support agreement between the two nations.

not because Nixon was too much of a pu$$ywhimp to ...

 

oh yeah, that's the movie. I like your statement above. I don't know much about any support agreement, but you pretty much nailed it with the first 2 sentences. Orders are orders and that is part of the job description.

 

 

Salute.

Edited October 25, 2010 by Scooby's Hubby

[Ursa Majoris]

I don't know if an Imperial German (Prussian) victory under the Kaiser would have been a good thing 100 years ago. We've all forgotten that war, but France basically lost 1/3 of all men in a generation holding back the Hun, while we came out of our isolationist shell. That's certainly worth something, and also worth noting it was that war that basically took the will to fight from that country moving forward.

A full 4.3% of the French population of 39.6 million died in WW1 (1.4 million soldiers and 300,000 civilians). By comparison, US deaths amounted to 0.13% of a population of 92 million (116,708 soldiers and 757 civilians).

 

Link

 

Pope is exactly right about the psychological effect on the French, manifested when the Germans came calling again only 22 years after the last time. That said, many French troops acquitted themselves very well, especially by holding off the Germans as the British prepared to retreat across the Channel.

[Scooby's Hubby]

all this makes me want to watch the old british comedy Allo! Allo!

[Pope Flick]

A full 4.3% of the French population of 39.6 million died in WW1 (1.4 million soldiers and 300,000 civilians). By comparison, US deaths amounted to 0.13% of a population of 92 million (116,708 soldiers and 757 civilians).

 

Link

 

Pope is exactly right about the psychological effect on the French, manifested when the Germans came calling again only 22 years after the last time. That said, many French troops acquitted themselves very well, especially by holding off the Germans as the British prepared to retreat across the Channel.

 

 

Those numbers actually sound like they downplay their actual sacrifice. Here's antoher way of looking at it:

World War I cost France 1,357,800 dead, 4,266,000 wounded (of whom 1.5 million were permanently maimed) and 537,000 made prisoner or missing — exactly 73% of the 8,410,000 men mobilized, according to William Shirer in The Collapse of the Third Republic. Some context: France had 40 million citizens at the start of the war; six in ten men between the ages of eighteen and twenty-eight died or were permanently maimed.

 

So actually it was two thirds of a generation of males lost holding back the Hun.

Edited October 25, 2010 by Pope Flick

[Ursa Majoris]

Those numbers actually sound like they downplay their actual sacrifice. Here's antoher way of looking at it:

 

 

So actually it was two thirds of a generation of males lost holding back the Hun.

Not disagreeing with you at all. WW1 was a total bloodbath affecting the British, Germans and Russians just as badly. The British formed "pals battalions" made up of men from the same neighborhood who, the thought went, would fight together better. Many were wiped out to a man.

[Savage Beatings]

Can we all just agree that TODAY's French people suck?

[SEC=UGA]

Those numbers actually sound like they downplay their actual sacrifice. Here's antoher way of looking at it:

 

 

So actually it was two thirds of a generation of males lost holding back the Hun.

 

So what yer saying is that all of the Frenchmen who were brave, honorable, and industrious died or were maimed in the war and all that was left were the inferior men to procreate leading to the following generations being a bunch of arrogant, self absorbed, sissy-marys?

[WaterMan]

Can we all just agree that TODAY's French people suck?

 

I have never met one.

[Dr. Sacrebleu]

Sure, they sent a couple of boats over to help slow down the British Navy.

 

We bailed them out of 2 BIG ONES and I mean bailed them out. I have seen the pictures of the Blitzkreig rolling through Paris and having a good time with their new conquest while the French were helpless.

 

What did we get? Mayonaise? The didn't even want our troops there once we saved them. When DeGaulle asked our General to send our troops home and he replied "just give us time to dig them all up" speaking of all those American soldiers buried and who died while defending France.

 

I found one reference to this quote on some blog on the internet which features Ike as the general in question. I think this may be more than apocryphal. De Gaulle asked US troops to leave france in ....1966

 

 

Now please tell us all what we have been missing. What has France provided to us that they would never have done otherwise? Sure there is international trade, but they do that b/c it benefits them. What have they sacrificed for us? Please, enlighten us all here. I do not recall the French ever sacrificing their own lives for the life of Americans.

 

 

In all honesty, they died for Afghanastan, not America, just like our soldiers are dying for Afghanastan, not dying for America's freedom. Our freedom is not at stake, it is Afghanastan's. I appreciate your point but those French soldiers are dying for Afg.'s right of freedom, not for America's.

 

 

and you are right, they have never really backed away from any real help we have ever needed. but boy, are they hard to convince.

weird hunh that another country hesitates or flat out refuses to do our bidding if it is not necessarily in it's best interest. That sentence applies to pretty much every ally in the world for any country, and obviously is applicable to the US as well.

 

 

So you are saying we are there to irradicate and obstruct Terrorists and terrorism...I can go with that, but then I ask myself why aren't we in Somalia and Eastern Africa? Because we will look like Crusaders to those Muslim nations?

 

Correct, we are not there for America's freedom, as you state in your 1st paragaph. therefore, the French soldiers did not die for America's freedoms over there. they did not die for America. and the biggest benefactor will be Afghan people (supposedly). giving Afghanastan back to their people is a small step toward irradicaating terrorism from the planet. it is a war on terrorism, but we are now getting close to 10 years of this and you have to ask yourself WHY are we there still TODAY? Just my

 

 

not because Nixon was too much of a pu$$ywhimp to ...

 

oh yeah, that's the movie. I like your statement above. I don't know much about any support agreement, but you pretty much nailed it with the first 2 sentences. Orders are orders and that is part of the job description.

 

 

Salute.

 

So just so that I get this straight... you have no gratitude for the french troops that died in afghanistan defending America's security (your false choice between defending america's freedom or liberating afghanies is silly (read article 51 of the UN charter, and resolution 1368 to see why the US invaded Afghanistan) and helping an ally who had been attacked who after all were just doing their jobs, orders are orders, and they knew the risk; but are outraged that the french were not grateful for America's liberation of france using as proof of their petiness some made up quote. What hapenned to your orders are orders, they knew the risk argument?

To further use your logic, I will remind you that the US landed off the coasts of France not to liberate france, but to defeat germany. France was just a great landing point, and where the germans were. The war ended when the ultimate goal, reaching berlin, was met. (to be clear, I AM grateful that the US liberated france, and do honour all the soldiers that died liberating france. As a kid we used to go every year or two to Normandy to go to the museum of liberation, and to the cemetaries. As an adult, I have just started going again, and brought my wife there last year, when my son turns 4 next year we will start going again regularily. I am just poitning out SH's silly logic)

 

 

BTW in response to your made up quote, I will tell you that my best friend's father who is as french as french can be is named Jack rather than Jacques in honor of the american soldiers that liberated france, that my friend's mother has a picture of her as a 5 year old on a US tank that is her most treasured posession and loves ALL things american, that my upstairs neighbour when she found out that I was American asked me to come up to show me pictures of her entertaining the US troops in Paris with tears in her eyes, that one of the most succesful french singers of all times in France Michel Sardou's song goes as follows "If the Yanks had not been there, you'd all be in Germania, speaking of whatever, saluting whoever. Of course the years have gone by, and the guns have changed hands, but is that a reason to forget that one day we needed them? A guy came from Georgia, he couldn't have cared less about you. But he died on a field in Normandy, on a day that you were not there"

You remind me that American I saw a few years ago at the airport the day after the Concorde crashed when all flights were seriously backed up as a result. The woman goes up the counter of Continental airlines and demands to get on a different flight to the US than the one she was booked on. She did not say hello, or please to the person manning the counter who had just lost the day before if not friends at least acquaintances in the tragedy, when the woman was informed that there would be a charge for changing the ticket (which was obviously a policy by continental a US company) the woman snatched her tickets walked away, and said to no one in particular "the french are so rude"

Edited October 27, 2010 by Dr. Sacrebleu

[Scooby's Hubby]

I found one reference to this quote on some blog on the internet which features Ike as the general in question. I think this may be more than apocryphal. De Gaulle asked US troops to leave france in ....1966

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

weird hunh that another country hesitates or flat out refuses to do our bidding if it is not necessarily in it's best interest. That sentence applies to pretty much every ally in the world for any country, and obviously is applicable to the US as well.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

So just so that I get this straight... you have no gratitude for the french troops that died in afghanistan defending America's security (your false choice between defending america's freedom or liberating afghanies is silly (read article 51 of the UN charter, and resolution 1368 to see why the US invaded Afghanistan) and helping an ally who had been attacked who after all were just doing their jobs, orders are orders, and they knew the risk; but are outraged that the french were not grateful for America's liberation of france using as proof of their petiness some made up quote. What hapenned to your orders are orders, they knew the risk argument?

To further use your logic, I will remind you that the US landed off the coasts of France not to liberate france, but to defeat germany. France was just a great landing point, and where the germans were. The war ended when the ultimate goal, reaching berlin, was met. (to be clear, I AM grateful that the US liberated france, and do honour all the soldiers that died liberating france. As a kid we used to go every year or two to Normandy to go to the museum of liberation, and to the cemetaries. As an adult, I have just started going again, and brought my wife there last year, when my son turns 4 next year we will start going again regularily. I am just poitning out SH's silly logic)

 

 

BTW in response to your made up quote, I will tell you that my best friend's father who is as french as french can be is named Jack rather than Jacques in honor of the american soldiers that liberated france, that my friend's mother has a picture of her as a 5 year old on a US tank that is her most treasured posession and loves ALL things american, that my upstairs neighbour when she found out that I was American asked me to come up to show me pictures of her entertaining the US troops in Paris with tears in her eyes, that one of the most succesful french singers of all times in France Michel Sardou's song goes as follows "If the Yanks had not been there, you'd all be in Germania, speaking of whatever, saluting whoever. Of course the years have gone by, and the guns have changed hands, but is that a reason to forget that one day we needed them? A guy came from Georgia, he couldn't have cared less about you. But he died on a field in Normandy, on a day that you were not there"

You remind me that American I saw a few years ago at the airport the day after the Concorde crashed when all flights were seriously backed up as a result. The woman goes up the counter of Continental airlines and demands to get on a different flight to the US than the one she was booked on. She did not say hello, or please to the person manning the counter who had just lost the day before if not friends at least acquaintances in the tragedy, when the woman was informed that there would be a charge for changing the ticket (which was obviously a policy by continental a US company) the woman snatched her tickets walked away, and said to no one in particular "the french are so rude"

 

 

I think you may be going off the deep end or misreading my statement. Where did I say anything about gratitude and why I should be thankful for something I did not ask anyone to do? I do not have anything against the French or feel that they do not appreciate any sacrifice made by an American troop, whether it be in 1945, 1966, or 2005. And I like Mayonaise, too. But why should I be thankful to someone for something I would rather they not do? If you go wash my car and without asking me and then come to me for money then I am going to tell you I didn't want the wash, I would rather keep my money. Same thing here, I did not ask any Frenchman to go to Afghanastan therefore I owe you (France) no thanks. And I do not expect any from you (France) for the US troops being there.

 

Really, I could care less if the French are in Afghanastan. I could care less if France feels that they owe this to the UN or not. I could care less that we are even over there, to some extent. We have been there long enough to do what we were originally there for. I don't care if you're French, Australian or if your from India and you are fighting over there. All I care about is why we are still there and why we have not resolved the issue after however many years. So don't misread the above and tell me that I am supposed to appreciate anyone who is over there, if it were up to me this would have been over with, by now.

 

And the Nixon thing is a quote from a Rodney Dangerfield movie, take it easy, or should I say "lighten up Francis".

Edited October 27, 2010 by Scooby's Hubby

[untateve]

I think you may be going off the deep end or misreading my statement. Where did I say anything about gratitude and why I should be thankful for something I did not ask anyone to do? I do not have anything against the French or feel that they do not appreciate any sacrifice made by an American troop, whether it be in 1945, 1966, or 2005. And I like Mayonaise, too. But why should I be thankful to someone for something I would rather they not do? If you go wash my car and without asking me and then come to me for money then I am going to tell you I didn't want the wash, I would rather keep my money. Same thing here, I did not ask any Frenchman to go to Afghanastan therefore I owe you (France) no thanks. And I do not expect any from you (France) for the US troops being there.

 

Really, I could care less if the French are in Afghanastan. I could care less if France feels that they owe this to the UN or not. I could care less that we are even over there, to some extent. We have been there long enough to do what we were originally there for. I don't care if you're French, Australian or if your from India and you are fighting over there. All I care about is why we are still there and why we have not resolved the issue after however many years. So don't misread the above and tell me that I am supposed to appreciate anyone who is over there, if it were up to me this would have been over with, by now.

 

And the Nixon thing is a quote from a Rodney Dangerfield movie, take it easy, or should I say "lighten up Francis".

 

How much less could you care?

[WaterMan]

She did not say hello, or please to the person manning the counter who had just lost the day before if not friends at least acquaintances in the tragedy, when the woman was informed that there would be a charge for changing the ticket (which was obviously a policy by continental a US company) the woman snatched her tickets walked away, and said to no one in particular "the french are so rude"

 

I love those people that start off with the attitude against someone they don't like and then fire back with "those people are rude."

[Dr. Sacrebleu]

. But why should I be thankful to someone for something I would rather they not do? If you go wash my car and without asking me and then come to me for money then I am going to tell you I didn't want the wash, I would rather keep my money. Same thing here, I did not ask any Frenchman to go to Afghanastan therefore I owe you (France) no thanks. And I do not expect any from you (France) for the US troops being there.

 

 

And the Nixon thing is a quote from a Rodney Dangerfield movie, take it easy, or should I say "lighten up Francis".

 

Wow. You really are the tool they say you are.

You ask for ONE example of when the french have ever helped out the US.

I give one to you.

Now your parameter has changed to one example of france helping the US that YOU specifically requested.

Well color me mystified.

 

BTW my umbrage at the quote was not the Dangerfield quote it was the quote where de gaulle tells a US general that he has a week to get all US troops out of france, and the general replying "a week will not be enough to dig up all the graves". As I said earlier, I SERIOUSLY doubt this is true

[Scooby's Hubby]

Wow. You really are the tool they say you are.

You ask for ONE example of when the french have ever helped out the US.

I give one to you.

Now your parameter has changed to one example of france helping the US that YOU specifically requested.

Well color me mystified.

 

BTW my umbrage at the quote was not the Dangerfield quote it was the quote where de gaulle tells a US general that he has a week to get all US troops out of france, and the general replying "a week will not be enough to dig up all the graves". As I said earlier, I SERIOUSLY doubt this is true

 

You are confused Perch did (see top of page 3). So why don't you call him a tool? No, you want to badmouth me. So tool your self. And I also told you that I like mayo, which is good enough for me. Take your battle to the people who asked for the example you speak of, and leave the insults away from me.

 

And you still have not made any example anyway. I would have accepted mayo. France doesn't owe me jack and I don't owe France jack, either, so just stop the name calling and go back to bitching about the retirement age being too high.

Edited October 30, 2010 by Scooby's Hubby

[Scooby's Hubby]

How much less could you care?

appearantly not enough, thanks to Dr. Sac.

 

the real topic here is that the French are living in a 'social healthcare system' where the young pay for the old's healthcare. We all know that age 62 is too young to retire if you are not retiring wealthy enough to cover your own costs of living, including healthcare. Unfortunatley, we are all gonna need major healthcare at least once in our life, most likely toward the end, god bless us. So you add that up and you work until you are either forced to retire b/c of your health or you have worked enough to be "comfortable with your wealth". If you can do that by 62 then congrads, if not and you still are healthy, then do not expect the govt to take of you because you are 62 and are too lazy to continue earning.

 

Now back to my video game where I am replaying the landing at Omaha Beach, Normandy France...

[Dr. Sacrebleu]

You are confused Perch did (see top of page 3). So why don't you call him a tool? No, you want to badmouth me. So tool your self. And I also told you that I like mayo, which is good enough for me. Take your battle to the people who asked for the example you speak of, and leave the insults away from me.

 

And you still have not made any example anyway. I would have accepted mayo. France doesn't owe me jack and I don't owe France jack, either, so just stop the name calling and go back to bitching about the retirement age being too high.

QUOTE (Scooby's Hubby @ 10/25/10 12:22pm)

Now please tell us all what we have been missing. What has France provided to us that they would never have done otherwise? Sure there is international trade, but they do that b/c it benefits them. What have they sacrificed for us? Please, enlighten us all here. I do not recall the French ever sacrificing their own lives for the life of Americans.

 

Reading.

It's.

Fun.

Da.

Mental.

 

You might just be the worst debater at thehuddle.

And THAT is no small feat

[Scooby's Hubby]

Reading.

It's.

Fun.

Da.

Mental.

 

You might just be the worst debater at thehuddle.

And THAT is no small feat

telling me that 50 french soldiers died in Afghanastan is not telling me they died for america, your telling me they died for Afghanastan.

 

And let me apologize by saying that I hope that no nation ever has to sacrifice lives for another. all this talk about sacrifice is bologne, anyway. rarely does it happen, thank God, and when it is necessary we all try to come through with aid, no matter if a war or natural catastrophe.

 

france does not back down from their part and have been innocent victims to tyrants and wars where it was necessary for others to intervene. it is silly to think that france is not a partner to america and to the world. again, I am sorry to have implied that france would do otherwise.

[wiegie]

Question: Did the US invade Normandy to free the French, or was it a side-effect of trying to defeat Germany? If it was the former, how come the US didn't declare war on Germany until after Germany declared war on the US?

 

Does anybody really think that if an easier path to Germany would have gone through, say, occupied Norway, that we would have still launched the D-Day invasion at Normandy just because we wanted to help out the French that badly?

 

Edit to add: If a WWII vet (or his spouse/children) go over to France, I would still expect that they be treated with great respect. (On the other hand, I sure as hell don't think the French owe me any gratitude personally (nor any animosity either).)

Edited October 30, 2010 by wiegie

[Ursa Majoris]

Question: Did the US invade Normandy to free the French, or was it a side-effect of trying to defeat Germany? If it was the former, how come the US didn't declare war on Germany until after Germany declared war on the US?

 

Does anybody really think that if an easier path to Germany would have gone through, say, occupied Norway, that we would have still launched the D-Day invasion at Normandy just because we wanted to help out the French that badly? No

 

Edit to add: If a WWII vet (or his spouse/children) go over to France, I would still expect that they be treated with great respect. (On the other hand, I sure as hell don't think the French owe me any gratitude personally (nor any animosity either).)

Correct answers bolded. The primary reason for France was it's proximity to England, obviously. If you're going to launch a seaborne invasion on that scale, you want as short a trip as possible.

 

It should be noted that Europe had already been invaded from the south a year previously via Italy and the Russians reached the prewar Polish border a month after D-Day.

 

Lastly, I am pretty sure I can provide hundreds of links to evidence that the French have not forgotten their liberation. The Belgians hold a ceremony at the Menin Gate every day and have done since 1928.

 

Following the Menin Gate Memorial opening in 1927, the citizens of Ypres wanted to express their gratitude towards those who had given their lives for Belgium's freedom. As such, every evening at 20:00, buglers from the local fire brigade close the road which passes under the Memorial and sound the Last Post. Except for the occupation by the Germans in World War II when the daily ceremony was conducted at Brookwood Military Cemetery, in Surrey, England, this ceremony has been carried on uninterrupted since 2 July 1928. On the very evening that Polish forces liberated Ypres in the Second World War, the ceremony was resumed at the Menin Gate despite the fact that heavy fighting was still taking place in other parts of the town.

 

The ceremony is a solemn occasion, and therefore not intended as entertainment or a tourist attraction. The buglers usually remain at the scene for a short while after the ceremony, at which point appreciation can be expressed in person; it is not considered appropriate to applaud during the ceremony.

[Perchoutofwater]

Edit to add: If a WWII vet (or his spouse/children) go over to France, I would still expect that they be treated with great respect. (On the other hand, I sure as hell don't think the French owe me any gratitude personally (nor any animosity either).)

 

Something we agree on. There have been too few lately. Thinking Frances owes us anything other than more nude photos of Carla Bruni is as stupid as people saying we owe reparations for slavery.