Death Panel's First Murder

[lennykravitz2004]

You must not be familiar with the legislation. They have guidelines on what is acceptable and what is not depending on the future quality of life. For Example, if you are 65, and a kidney transplant may give you 5 more years, they say it's not worth it. A decision make by a government bureaucrat. You die.

 

If that's not a death panel, what is it?

 

Not quite sure I see your logic here... My Father is currently on a waiting list for a kidney donation at the age of 66. He has not been told under any circumstance "it's not worth it". They do have a kind of "triage" for lack of a better term, where he will only receive a kidney (or set) from somebody who was in less than perfect health (i.e. probably another older person). My family is thanking our lucky stars he was approved for this. Yes, his case was reviewed by some kind of panel, but I don't see it as a "government bureaucrat(ic)" decision. My Father got a golden parachute when he retired and is covered (along with my Mom) at 100% for the rest of their lives. When insurance will pay for anything, amazing how the likelihood of him getting a transplant improved.

 

Doesn't sound like a death panel to me. Sounds like everything else in the world these days - it's about the $$$.

[Duchess Jack]

You must not be familiar with the legislation. They have guidelines on what is acceptable and what is not depending on the future quality of life. For Example, if you are 65, and a kidney transplant may give you 5 more years, they say it's not worth it. A decision make by a government bureaucrat. You die.

 

If that's not a death panel, what is it?

One would think that this has more to do with the demand of kidneys being greater than the supply. With this said - is it better to pass a kidney to a person who it could help live a long life - or to a person who is older, would have a harder time with the surgery, recovery and somebody who 'might' get 5 years out of it?

 

Should it be a lottery or a decision made using common sense.

 

How would you feel if your daughter needed a liver - and there was liver available - but it was being given to a 65 year old drunk who destroyed his liver from years and years of drinking? This is not to say that all old people who need a liver are drinkers - I am just adding a little more for the death panel to chew on in this scenerio.

[redrumjuice]

There are all sorts of scenarios you can come up with. And in not a one of them do I want the government involved.

[Duchess Jack]

so you are cool with a kidney going to a 65 year old drunk whose other body parts are breaking down (a guy who might not even make it past the surgery and recover) only to live another 5 or so years over an otherwise healthy yonger person getting the organ?

[i_am_the_swammi]

Maybe we should just have them thumb-wrestle for it Palin can ref.

[untateve]

There are all sorts of scenarios you can come up with. And in not a one of them do I want the government involved.

 

 

so you are cool with a kidney going to a 65 year old drunk whose other body parts are breaking down (a guy who might not even make it past the surgery and recover) only to live another 5 or so years over an otherwise healthy yonger person getting the organ?

 

The kidney, liver or other organ will go to the highest bidder if there is no government intervention whatsoever. Free market rules.

[Duchess Jack]

There are all sorts of scenarios you can come up with. And in not a one of them do I want the government involved.

okay, I will bite.

 

How - should - the decision be made?

[TimC]

I'd like to see assisted suicide be legal and encouraged. I figure those of us that know the reality of the situation and want to die peacefully and with dignity will more than offset those that want to fight to the bitter end costing whatever it takes. Allow the doctors to give a pill and end it quickly. The only reason this is not already in place is because people think it's suicide. It is not.

 

ETA: First thing is to not call it "assisted suicide". We need to come up with a catchier name.

Edited December 29, 2010 by TimC

[Duchess Jack]

turning in your coat check ticket

[yo mama]

I'd like to see assisted suicide be legal and encouraged. I figure those of us that know the reality of the situation and want to die peacefully and with dignity will more than offset those that want to fight to the bitter end costing whatever it takes. Allow the doctors to give a pill and end it quickly. The only reason this is not already in place is because people think it's suicide. It is not.

 

ETA: First thing is to not call it "assisted suicide". We need to come up with a catchier name.

Freedom naps?

Edited December 30, 2010 by yo mama

[redrumjuice]

Listen kids, I understand all the arguments you are making. But you can't say that, and then say there aren't death panels.

 

Why are you so ashamed to admit you embrace them? By your very arguments you support them. Just admit it. Why hide it?

[yo mama]

Listen kids, I understand all the arguments you are making. But you can't say that, and then say there aren't death panels.

 

Why are you so ashamed to admit you embrace them? By your very arguments you support them. Just admit it. Why hide it?

Are you kidding? I LOVE death panels! If you want to be all pro life at end of life, fine by me - but do so on your own nickle.

[Duchess Jack]

Listen kids, I understand all the arguments you are making. But you can't say that, and then say there aren't death panels.

 

Why are you so ashamed to admit you embrace them? By your very arguments you support them. Just admit it. Why hide it?

Once again - how would you prefer to see this handled? I am just wondering if you too are a fan of "death panels", or if you have a better idea. Feel free to come up with some clever schticky spelling (to keep you in your comfort zone) if it'll help you communicate your better idea.

Edited December 30, 2010 by Duchess Jack

[detlef]

Listen kids, I understand all the arguments you are making. But you can't say that, and then say there aren't death panels.

 

Why are you so ashamed to admit you embrace them? By your very arguments you support them. Just admit it. Why hide it?

So, in other words, you want to be lied and pandered to.

 

If there were plenty of organs laying around and the procedures were cheap and simple, then I'm sure everyone would be happy if everyone who needed one, got one.

 

As it stands, that is not the case. So somebody has to make the call. But you'd rather pretend that nobody does, that grampa won't be denied because nobody should deny anyone a liver if he needs it.

 

It's like the terrorist deal. We want our elected officials to say, "We will do everything possible to end terrorism." But we really don't want that. Because "everything possible" includes costs and measures that would make the patriot act seem like nothing. So what we want is for our government to do everything within reason to stop terrorism. But, dog forbid anyone actually come out and say that. Because then they don't care about life, liberty, and America.

 

"Oh, so now we're going to ignore protecting our citizens because it's not cheap or easy? Is that what you're saying? You're going to put a price tag on freedom? Is that what you're saying?"

 

So, call them death panels if you want. But who do you want to make the call? The market? I'm sure at some point, the market will always overrule anything. Hell, for the right price you could get a guy to off himself to set his family up for life and take his liver. The insurance companies? A lottery?

 

Or would you rather pretend that no hard decisions ever need to be made?

[yo mama]

So, in other words, you want to be lied and pandered to.

 

If there were plenty of organs laying around and the procedures were cheap and simple, then I'm sure everyone would be happy if everyone who needed one, got one.

 

As it stands, that is not the case. So somebody has to make the call. But you'd rather pretend that nobody does, that grampa won't be denied because nobody should deny anyone a liver if he needs it.

 

It's like the terrorist deal. We want our elected officials to say, "We will do everything possible to end terrorism." But we really don't want that. Because "everything possible" includes costs and measures that would make the patriot act seem like nothing. So what we want is for our government to do everything within reason to stop terrorism. But, dog forbid anyone actually come out and say that. Because then they don't care about life, liberty, and America.

 

"Oh, so now we're going to ignore protecting our citizens because it's not cheap or easy? Is that what you're saying? You're going to put a price tag on freedom? Is that what you're saying?"

 

So, call them death panels if you want. But who do you want to make the call? The market? I'm sure at some point, the market will always overrule anything. Hell, for the right price you could get a guy to off himself to set his family up for life and take his liver. The insurance companies? A lottery?

 

Or would you rather pretend that no hard decisions ever need to be made?

No, no, no! You're missing the point. RedrumH8juice is trying to say that we need more government regulation to make sure no one's right to life is infringed upon, and to enforce all the new taxes that will be required to pay for keeping everyone alive forever. Especially those people who cannot otherwise afford to pay for things like non FDA-approved medical treatments.

Edited December 30, 2010 by yo mama

[evil_gop_liars]

I'm curious, when was the last time mercury levels were checked in the Oklahomo water supply?

[redrumjuice]

So, in summary... death panels don't exist, but since they do they are great and smart.

 

Here's how NOT to handle it, don't let a politician anywhere near it. Death-Row Inmate Seeks Organ Transplant Condemned Prisoner May Get Kidney Transplant While Law-Abiding Citizens Wait

[bpwallace49]

So, in summary... death panels don't exist, but since they do they are great and smart.

 

Here's how NOT to handle it, don't let a politician anywhere near it. Death-Row Inmate Seeks Organ Transplant Condemned Prisoner May Get Kidney Transplant While Law-Abiding Citizens Wait

.

 

EDIT: My mistake redrum . . I was reading a different article on prisoners being released at the same time.

 

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20101230/ap_on_...s_pardon_kidney

Edited December 30, 2010 by bpwallace49

[gbpfan1231]

did you READ that article? It has a woman being released if she gives her kidney to her sister, who is costing the state a huge amount of money for dialysis. gives them conditional release (basically early parole) if they do the surgery, which will save the state a ton of money. 2 birds, one stone.

Did we read two different articles? The link was about a man on death row getting a kidney - I did not read anything about a woman and early parole???

[yo mama]

So, in summary... death panels don't exist, but since they do they are great and smart.

 

Here's how NOT to handle it, don't let a politician anywhere near it. Death-Row Inmate Seeks Organ Transplant Condemned Prisoner May Get Kidney Transplant While Law-Abiding Citizens Wait

So you're saying the inmate (who HAS medical coverage) will receive priority over someone else who has NO medical insurance. Then the system works: hooray for death panels!

[Duchess Jack]

So, in summary... death panels don't exist, but since they do they are great and smart.

 

Here's how NOT to handle it, don't let a politician anywhere near it. Death-Row Inmate Seeks Organ Transplant Condemned Prisoner May Get Kidney Transplant While Law-Abiding Citizens Wait

I agree this sounds wrong. So what do your propose that somebody like you would 'not' call a death panel?

 

Its great to apply tags to things - but what is the alternative you are proposing?

[detlef]

So, in summary... death panels don't exist, but since they do they are great and smart.

Well, I would summarize it like this.

 

For a long time, we have had very expensive treatments and/or the ability to transplant a finite number of organs (of which the number of those who need them is larger than the number of suitable organs). At some point, someone has had to decide who gets them and who doesn't. And I'm rather certain that, as long as that has been going on, there have been valid arguments for why someone else should have gotten that treatment/organ and "needlessly" died from not getting it.

 

And everyone basically accepted that as the facts of life. It sure sucked for those who lost people close to them, but those not intimate with the specific cases just wrote them off as unfortunate breaks for faceless names. After all, we realized, it was inevitable that someone was going to die because we simply couldn't treat everyone.

 

That is, until we got a freedom-hating, immigrant, Muslim president who wanted to reform health care. Now, all of sudden, this practice which has gone on this entire time without a name found one; Death Panels. And now these faceless victims that we always realized were inevitable are suddenly people for whom our socialist system has failed. Even though, again, there is no system out there that could actually get everyone who needed these treatments taken care of.

[bpwallace49]

Well, I would summarize it like this.

 

For a long time, we have had very expensive treatments and/or the ability to transplant a finite number of organs (of which the number of those who need them is larger than the number of suitable organs). At some point, someone has had to decide who gets them and who doesn't. And I'm rather certain that, as long as that has been going on, there have been valid arguments for why someone else should have gotten that treatment/organ and "needlessly" died from not getting it.

 

And everyone basically accepted that as the facts of life. It sure sucked for those who lost people close to them, but those not intimate with the specific cases just wrote them off as unfortunate breaks for faceless names. After all, we realized, it was inevitable that someone was going to die because we simply couldn't treat everyone.

 

That is, until we got a freedom-hating, immigrant, Muslim president who wanted to reform health care. Now, all of sudden, this practice which has gone on this entire time without a name found one; Death Panels. And now these faceless victims that we always realized were inevitable are suddenly people for whom our socialist system has failed. Even though, again, there is no system out there that could actually get everyone who needed these treatments taken care of.

 

Yep . . . that is a very accurate summary.