"Capitalism is failing the middle class"

[TimC]

A question wiegie and his nerd friends never answered to anyone's satisfaction is why we need a dozen super-large banks in this country. He said that if we didn't bail Wall Street and the banks out, then the economy would implode without mentioning that the local regional banks and credit unions were nowhere near in the same trouble as the Chases, Citibanks, BofA's, etc. We could've taken the bailout money and paid off everyone's mortgage and debt by now and the economy would be buzzing along just fine. Think of the spendable cash. No, the reason Capitalism has failed the middle class is because the Government decided to take the middle class' money and future and save a handful of large corporations that would never be missed in the first place.

 

I need to get me one of those Economics Nobel Prizes. If I tried, I'd have at least a dozen to hang my garden hose on by now. No wonder no one takes Economics seriously anymore.

Edited April 21, 2011 by TimC

[bushwacked]

I'm glad to know that the economic downturn and growing gap between the top and middle are primarily due to the fact that middle class America has become lazy. You people are entertaining at times.

Edited April 21, 2011 by bushwacked

[Yukon Cornelius]

A question wiegie and his nerd friends never answered to anyone's satisfaction is why we need a dozen super-large banks in this country. He said that if we didn't bail Wall Street and the banks out, then the economy would implode without mentioning that the local regional banks and credit unions were nowhere near in the same trouble as the Chases, Citibanks, BofA's, etc. We could've taken the bailout money and paid off everyone's mortgage and debt by now and the economy would be buzzing along just fine. Think of the spendable cash. No, the reason Capitalism has failed the middle class is because the Government decided to take the middle class' money and future and save a handful of large corporations that would never be missed in the first place.

 

I need to get me one of those Economics Nobel Prizes. If I tried, I'd have at least a dozen to hang my garden hose on by now. No wonder no one takes Economics seriously anymore.

fricken commy

[TimC]

fricken commy

 

Ummm, that's fricken gawd-danged pot smoking hippie commy, if you don't mind.

 

Here are the options as I saw them...

 

1. Do nothing and wait for the zooomg!11!! the economy will fail because no one will lend money again. Or we'll just have to take our lumps and crawl out stronger than before with no debt.

2. Bail out the banks and the economy will fail because no one will lend money again. Kill middle class. <<this seems to be the road we're on.

3. Forgive everyone's mortgages and let the super-banks die and no one will need to be lent money.

4. Win Nobel Prize in Economics by saying what happened years ago pretending like you knew it all along. Share prize with Nobel Prize for Weathermen.

Edited April 21, 2011 by TimC

[WaterMan]

I'm glad to know that the economic downturn and growing gap between the top and middle are primarily due to the fact that middle class America has become lazy. You people are entertaining at times.

 

Yeah all 100,000 non lazy Americans are sitting at the top living the American Dream to it's full potential. The rest of us are either socialists or lazy.

[SEC=UGA]

I'm glad to know that the economic downturn and growing gap between the top and middle are primarily due to the fact that middle class America has become lazy. You people are entertaining at times.

 

Glad we can entertain you.

 

People are lazy and have been indoctrinated to believe that working factory/construction jobs is beneath them. It is in part due to parents wanting better for their children and an educational system that feels every precious, little child deserves a college degree and a comfy job on the offices of a fortune 500 company or a big 3 consulting firm.

 

If you read the articles I posted it becomes evident that their is a systemic failure in the system that trains people for the working world. While many of the low-skill manufacturing jobs have been shipped overseas (because people here wouldnt work those for competitives wages) the high skill, technical manufacturing jobs are available and are in a lurch for employees. These guys want to hire labor, they want to increase their production (and income), they pay good middle class wages, but can't find people to fill these job openings. Why, because in some cases the people applying, high school grads, can't sipher simple math problems, they have issues reading the technical writing about how to operate the machinery, they can't comprehend "9th grade" math and writing and they have been told that manufacturing is for the birds.

 

These companies are willing to take a person with no skills and drop six figures on training them, they want to pay them while they are learning a trade and then after they do all of this... well, they want to give them a healthy raise. Why aren't people doing these jobs, why aren't people trying to take these jobs when jobs are sooooo difficult to find? Because there is a stigma attached to them, because they are taught that these jobs are beneath them, and because, quite frankly, they don't want to put in the effort that it takes to perform these jobs. They would rather be in an air conditoned retail store making 70% of what the manufacturing sector offers, working in a climate that is not stressful or requires much if any analytical or phsical effort and where they can chit-chat back and forth with their friends on Twitter or some stupid ass fantasy football website.

 

The construction industry, from a laborer perspective, has met with many of the same issue plaguing manufacturing, with the exception of the ability to read and perform calcualtions at a 9th grade level (unless you are a PM, Foreman, Superintendent, estimator, etc...)

Edited April 21, 2011 by SEC=UGA

[WaterMan]

I need to move to Georgia because South Carolina isn't advertising these jobs "we will take anyone unskilled, train you, and drop 6 digits on you."

 

It made the news for weeks when BMW moved a plant here.

[SEC=UGA]

I need to move to Georgia because South Carolina isn't advertising these jobs "we will take anyone unskilled, train you, and drop 6 digits on you."

 

It made the news for weeks when BMW moved a plant here.

 

I think that you're better off staying where you are.

[gbpfan1231]

Glad we can entertain you.

 

People are lazy and have been indoctrinated to believe that working factory/construction jobs is beneath them. It is in part due to parents wanting better for their children and an educational system that feels every precious, little child deserves a college degree and a comfy job on the offices of a fortune 500 company or a big 3 consulting firm.

 

If you read the articles I posted it becomes evident that their is a systemic failure in the system that trains people for the working world. While many of the low-skill manufacturing jobs have been shipped overseas (because people here wouldnt work those for competitives wages) the high skill, technical manufacturing jobs are available and are in a lurch for employees. These guys want to hire labor, they want to increase their production (and income), they pay good middle class wages, but can't find people to fill these job openings. Why, because in some cases the people applying, high school grads, can't sipher simple math problems, they have issues reading the technical writing about how to operate the machinery, they can't comprehend "9th grade" math and writing and they have been told that manufacturing is for the birds.

 

These companies are willing to take a person with no skills and drop six figures on training them, they want to pay them while they are learning a trade and then after they do all of this... well, they want to give them a healthy raise. Why aren't people doing these jobs, why aren't people trying to take these jobs when jobs are sooooo difficult to find? Because there is a stigma attached to them, because they are taught that these jobs are beneath them, and because, quite frankly, they don't want to put in the effort that it takes to perform these jobs. They would rather be in an air conditoned retail store making 70% of what the manufacturing sector offers, working in a climate that is not stressful or requires much if any analytical or phsical effort and where they can chit-chat back and forth with their friends on Twitter or some stupid ass fantasy football website.

 

The construction industry, from a laborer perspective, has met with many of the same issue plaguing manufacturing, with the exception of the ability to read and perform calcualtions at a 9th grade level (unless you are a PM, Foreman, Superintendent, estimator, etc...)

You are exactly right and you provided a real life example but instead of people going with a real life example they would rather stick with what they read and blame the evil rich. I mean your company just isn't paying enough - it isn't fair that you make more than a laborer and OMG the owner of said company may make 6 figures and is EVIL!!!!.

 

People are becoming more and more lazy and stupid but it is a lot easier to blame others than blame yourself. A person I work has a husband who is perfectly healthy and has been on unemployment for almost a year - there are jobs around here and our company just hired someone - this guy did not even apply - he probably would have had the job but hey his wife works here so he gets the benes and he is still getting money from the govt so why work hard????

[bushwacked]

it isn't fair that you make more than a laborer and OMG the owner of said company may make 6 figures and is EVIL!!!!.

 

Who in this thread is claiming this? Besides you I mean.

[Pope Flick]

You are exactly right and you provided a real life example but instead of people going with a real life example they would rather stick with what they read and blame the evil rich. I mean your company just isn't paying enough - it isn't fair that you make more than a laborer and OMG the owner of said company may make 6 figures and is EVIL!!!!.

 

 

Right. That's exactly what I said.

 

sec, thanks for the links. I'll still disagree with the singular notion that it's all about laziness. Even your post below touches on the different factors which starts with the fact that many of these examples are technically skilled jobs, not something you simply walk in off the street and start doing.

 

And yes, I do think that if the retail stores are offering 70% of what a manufacturing job pays it is in fact an underpaid position. A retail job shouldn't be a third of that frankly.

[CaP'N GRuNGe]

The full paper: http://i.cfr.org/content/publications/atta...3_USEconomy.pdf

[SEC=UGA]

Right. That's exactly what I said.

 

sec, thanks for the links. I'll still disagree with the singular notion that it's all about laziness. Even your post below touches on the different factors which starts with the fact that many of these examples are technically skilled jobs, not something you simply walk in off the street and start doing.

 

And yes, I do think that if the retail stores are offering 70% of what a manufacturing job pays it is in fact an underpaid position. A retail job shouldn't be a third of that frankly.

 

Well, at least we can reach somewhat of an agreement. I guess I'm jaded with regard to the work ethic that I've seen from the Gen X and Y groups (I'm 36 so I've grown up in the midst of quite a few of these people. Also, given my own lack of drive and laziness I managed to stay in college through my mid 20's which exposed me to a broader swath of today's working young.) That and the fact that I have seen the lack of work ethic and the lofty expectations of these people first hand.

 

In the construction industry it has been my experience that hiring a younger person is typically a futile effort. Even back in college when I would get my friends work with me during summer on a crew putting up metal out buildings or self storgae facilities, most of them would last for a couple of weeks at the most. The work was hard and at a certain point they would have enough, give up the extra $ and go to work at the mall or some other place that was more "worker friendly". Today I see the same thing. You give a kid a job, pay him 13 to 15 an hour and they wash out after a few weeks... the hours are too long, the work is dirty and hot/cold, you start work too early, you work weekends, etc...

 

From working in the corporate world in RE finance/brokerage/development advisory you have these kids come in and interview with you for an analyst position, they are ill equipped for the realities of the work. The hours are too long, they have to work weekends at times and some of them just can't handle the pace or the mathematics behind it, even after having gone through a program designed to hone their mathematical and analytical skills. And the support staff, don't even get me started on them (8 to 5 means, 8 to 5... not 8:30 to 4:45 with an hour and a half lunch. You ask them where the they were and they look at you like you just sodomized their mom in front of them.)

 

Don't get me wrong, there are many industrious and professional people out there of these two generations, but there are just as many that have a huge sense of entitlement and the perception that certain industries are beneath them. It is a set of generations that definitely look down upon manual labor and those that toil in such industries. This has been bread inthem by their parents and a system that has become detached from reality. Schools no longer offer as broad of a scope of education with regard to career paths s they once did. It seems every kid is taught that it is incumbent upon them to go to college and settle for nothing else or that they are a worthless POS and don't have any options.

 

I recall when kids would sit down with their counselors/advisors in HS who would talk with them about career options, discuss with them what path it may be best for them to take. If it was apparent that college may not suit them, they were steered toward a more "techinical" career path, auto body, machine shop, wood shop, etc... kids were taught how to use metal lathes and other manufacturing machines. Kids were taught how to work on cars and small engines. These things don't seem to be as prevalent in today's society.

 

We need to prepare kids for the real world that they will face upon graduation from HS and I think we are doing an inadequate job of this, that is my perception. And when I read a littaby of articles that reinforces my perception I may get on a soap box and overzealous about it. Believe me, I don't like sitting here and condemning an entire generation of people, I don't want to continue on with the perception that they are a group of underachieving, codled and entitled slack asses (again, most of them aren't), but, unfortunately, the ones I hear about complaining the loudest are exactly that. "I can't find a job"... "McDonalds is hiring"... "I'm not gonna do that"... "Well, how bout a job in manufacturing?"... "Hell, no, that's hot and sweaty work. Only chumps work in factories."... Well, tinkerbell, you gotta make a fu(king living somehow, you gotta work somewhere. Don't bitch about there being no jobs when I can drive by a number of places each day and see signs on the door that say "Now Hiring" or "Accepting Applications". Yeah, many of these starting wages suck, but if you work that scale will go up and in many cases quickly.

 

There was an interesting article in ABC or CBS news the other day about McDonald's jobs and how while the starting pay is $8 bucks an hour in many cases, a person with any aptitude at all can work their way up through the system... assitant manager, 30K a year, manager 35 to 60K per year, regional, corporate, owner, etc... many of the now higher ups and owners came from a back ground in which they were flipping burgers and working a register or window. People no longer look at the long term prospects, they look at the now. Today, right now, I work this job make 13 an hour and it's hot and sweaty... it sucks. They don't see, if I keep doing this for a few years, I will learn some skills get promoted and have a decent 40 to 70K salary. The need for immediate gratification is killing us and someone needs to commit themselves to affecting a change in the attitudes of people today.

[Deathpig]

Who in this thread is claiming this? Besides you I mean.

 

+1 I don't think that's a fair assessment of the discussion at all.

 

There are so many issues to talk about surrounding this subject it seems rather daunting:

 

1) Insufficient institutional knowledge among the general populace on how to handle money. Hand most poor people a ton of money and, shockingly, they end up poor again in short order. Even people in the middle class can spend themselves right out of it, whereas the normal method for them to 'move up' requires living beneath their means and saving, which isn't considered a desirable social trait. The buying power of the middle class is actually very strong, the savvy to actually save money is depressingly absent.

 

2) Insufficient insitituional regard for education among the general populace. We could start with what 'role-models' kids look at (athletes, rappers, and the like instead of scientists, teachers, and the like). We can talk about cultural identity with being uneducated (school/studying is indoctrination by 'The Man'). We can look at what parents have said for a century (homework doesn't matter go do your chores). We can look at school systems that reward teachers for passing students instead of teaching them, creating a situation where kids are passing classes without actually learning much of anything.

 

3) The relative ease that you can abuse systems in place to get nearly as much by doing considerably less. This creates considerable downward pressure. This isn't a recent thing, either-- it's been going on at least three decades, if not longer. I know bringing up that entitlements get abused is a sticky topic around here, but if you aren't abusing them you're simply doing it wrong. The systems as they exist do not reward you for trying to play by the rules.

 

4) Given the above things, it becomes increasingly difficult for someone to move up from the middle class. How are self-made millionares made? Outside of blind luck, it's the same values that are now mocked for being 'so last century'-- hard work, tenacity, thriftiness, discipline. I don't get the sense that the societal norm is about living beneath your means, saving every penny, and working your tail off to better yourself or, more importantly, give your kids a better chance at succeeding. It seems to be all about living in the moment and 'memememe', or how can I figure out a way to do less to give myself more 'me time'.

 

 

It's not about 'being lazy', it's about what values seem to be prized by society, and what's the fastest path to the cheese.

[wiegie]

People no longer look at the long term prospects, they look at the now. Today, right now, I work this job make 13 an hour and it's hot and sweaty... it sucks. They don't see, if I keep doing this for a few years, I will learn some skills get promoted and have a decent 40 to 70K salary.

Of course people don't spend too much time looking at the long-run aspects of most manufacturing jobs because they think that the second the company figures out a way to get the Chinese to do the work, they are going to get sh|tcanned.

[Brentastic]

Hard to argue with Spence's analysis. The question is: what, if anything, should be done to address it?

Abolish the Fed and the fractional reserve banking system therefore eliminating the hidden tax of inflation

[gbpfan1231]

Right. That's exactly what I said.

 

sec, thanks for the links. I'll still disagree with the singular notion that it's all about laziness. Even your post below touches on the different factors which starts with the fact that many of these examples are technically skilled jobs, not something you simply walk in off the street and start doing.

 

And yes, I do think that if the retail stores are offering 70% of what a manufacturing job pays it is in fact an underpaid position. A retail job shouldn't be a third of that frankly.

Of course what I said is exagerration and yea nobody specifically said what I said but you said he should raise his wage and he is lowballing. He mentioned mid 40's to low 50's I think when you include OT and benes - I don't think that is lowballing and I would have thought people would be banging down his door for that type of pay.

 

SEC mentioned he had a hard time filling positions and it sure seemed like the majority of people quickly came to the defense of the people saying he was low balling or raise your wage and 13.50 is not enough to get you to middle class. People out there think they are too good to work these jobs and also think they are entitled to more. Yes what I said was overly exaggerrated but the same is done by always assuming people are good and out there trying to get work. There is so much fraud and people taking advantage of and abusing the system that it irritates the hell out of me when you hear real life stories like SEC said where he is having a tough time hiring people at what I consider a very decent wage.

[WaterMan]

Maybe you are confusing "i'm too good for this job" with "the business won't hire me because I'm not skilled enough."

 

There are businesses who will train people, but most people have to find the money to get the training when it's not free.

[SayItAintSoJoe]

I think that there are people that are lazy, think that certain jobs are beneath them, abuse and take advantage of the system, etc.

 

But if you look over the study, view the trends, and read what the writer of the news article claims is the main take away from the study:

 

“Globalization is making U.S. companies more productive, but the benefits are mostly being enjoyed by the C-suite. The middle class, meanwhile, is struggling to find work, and many of the jobs available are poorly paid.”

 

IMO, it’s sort of hard to argue against that even knowing that there are a lot of lazy, unscrupulous people out there.

[Savage Beatings]

I think that there are people that are lazy, think that certain jobs are beneath them, abuse and take advantage of the system, etc.

 

But if you look over the study, view the trends, and read what the writer of the news article claims is the main take away from the study:

 

“Globalization is making U.S. companies more productive, but the benefits are mostly being enjoyed by the C-suite. The middle class, meanwhile, is struggling to find work, and many of the jobs available are poorly paid.”

 

IMO, it’s sort of hard to argue against that even knowing that there are a lot of lazy, unscrupulous people out there.

 

Plus, in a global economy, what is there that can be done about it? Unless you force companies to hire domestic, which is sure to be more costly to them, which hurts them in the global economy. So we don't want to punish companies for doing what they need to do to survive globally. But is there a way to provide an incentive to make it more attractive to hire more domestically (tax breaks maybe)?

[WaterMan]

I think that there are people that are lazy, think that certain jobs are beneath them, abuse and take advantage of the system, etc.

 

But if you look over the study, view the trends, and read what the writer of the news article claims is the main take away from the study:

 

“Globalization is making U.S. companies more productive, but the benefits are mostly being enjoyed by the C-suite. The middle class, meanwhile, is struggling to find work, and many of the jobs available are poorly paid.”

 

IMO, it’s sort of hard to argue against that even knowing that there are a lot of lazy, unscrupulous people out there.

 

I heard there are lifetime caps on welfare in many states. If this is true, wouldn't that mean these people are lazy for 1-5 years?

[Azazello1313]

wiegie now subscribes to lou dobbs/pat buchanan/ross perot/donald trump economics.

[wiegie]

wiegie now subscribes to lou dobbs/pat buchanan/ross perot/donald trump economics.

not exactly

 

However, this graph absolutely suggests that the gains from economic growth are not being broadly shared in our society. (And, yes, there are problems with using household data because the composition of households has not been constant over time, but there is no way that those demographic trends are what is driving these data.)

[WaterMan]

not exactly

 

However, this graph absolutely suggests that the gains from economic growth are not being broadly shared in our society. (And, yes, there are problems with using household data because the composition of households has not been constant over time, but there is no way that those demographic trends are what is driving these data.)

 

Look at that trickle down in action.

[Ursa Majoris]

not exactly

 

However, this graph absolutely suggests that the gains from economic growth are not being broadly shared in our society. (And, yes, there are problems with using household data because the composition of households has not been constant over time, but there is no way that those demographic trends are what is driving these data.)

I've been expounding this exact fact for years on end. Trickle down is a total failure, aggregation is rapidly increasing, the rising tide is not floating all boats, nor even a majority of them.