Sieg Heil!

[Brentastic]

Beck is a bit of a tool and obviously didn't show much sensitivity to that matter, but I have to admit that when I heard that it was a political youth camp that got shot up, "Hitler Youth" was the exact very first thing that came to my mind.

Me too and I don't listen to Beck either. While a horrible tragedy, it is disturbing that there's a camp for this, imo.

[detlef]

political parties are by their very nature adversarial with one another. the whole point is to inculcate an us-vs-them mentality. they are to some degree a necessary evil in a democratic society, but these are not patterns of thought I like to see immature minds being pushed into. they are also not the sort of things they emphasize in any church camp I am personally familiar with.

 

but of course you're the expert when it comes to what religion is really all about, so I guess I should just shut up and listen.

Wow. I'll accept the "aren't you the know-it-all" card played on me by most anyone here. With the very notable exception of you, and well, Bronco Billy. From either of you, it's irony at its finest.

 

ETA: Oh, and nice bit about pointing out the primary difference between political parties and religion. Because, I can't for the life of me ever think of any conflict born from religious differences.

 

ETA2: I could post a link to quotes from Jesus Camp about making sure that we're working as hard to teach our kids Christian values as the "enemy" is teaching their kids about islam. But I'm going to give you enough credit for likely assuming that Jesus Camp counts as "creepy". However, I get it. I realize that the vast majority of Jewish summer camp or Christian summer camps are about swimming, and playing soft ball, and learning about how to tell how old a tree is, and that there's simply a few moments each day where they talk about god as they define it.

 

I'm not saying these camps need to be stamped out. I'm just saying that I'm guessing that the summer camp in Norway was basically the same thing. Lot's of swimming, and volleyball, and sneaking off to smooch behind the dorms with the girl you met, and some lessons about the values their party represents.

 

So, again, the difference?

Edited July 27, 2011 by detlef

[wiegie]

All I can say is, for God's sake, please nobody get Det started on Space Camp.

[Azazello1313]

Oh, and nice bit about pointing out the primary difference between political parties and religion. Because, I can't for the life of me ever think of any conflict born from religious differences.

 

so we're back to wild leaps of logic and idiotic non-sequitur. great.

[delusions of grandeur]

His point is twisted in the part-sentence I have bolded above.

 

He's saying there really isn't any difference between Bible camp and a camp run by a political party, since both involve indoctrination of some kind. You appear to be saying that's not the case.

Maybe read the next sentence down where I say there is no difference. All groups indoctrinate, from peer groups to organizations to countries. My point is that it is entirely arbitrary and up to your perspective which groups are acceptable or unacceptable.

 

So I don't really get what he's going on about. It's your decision what you wish "indoctrinate" your kids or yourself to, not something that should really be up for debate in a free society.

[delusions of grandeur]

So it's not dependent upon perspective. Either you think kids should be gathered at summer camp and fed ideology or you don't.

I'd answer which I think it is, but I'd have to rely on my perspective...

 

So what Az thinks they're creepy? So do I, but that's just because I'm as jaded as gets when it comes to politics... That's just my personal perspective though... I'm also jaded on organized religion after my experiences with it, but again, that's just my perspective...

 

So in essence I agree with what you're saying, but that doesn't mean that everyone else has to... That's precisely what makes this a great country.

Edited July 27, 2011 by delusions of granduer

[detlef]

Maybe read the next sentence down where I say there is no difference. All groups indoctrinate, from peer groups to organizations to countries. My point is that it is entirely arbitrary and up to your perspective which groups are acceptable or unacceptable.

 

So I don't really get what he's going on about. It's your decision what you wish "indoctrinate" your kids or yourself to, not something that should really be up for debate in a free society.

If you think there's no difference, then we have no quarrel, because that's exactly how I feel. I'm not the one that is saying that political youth camps are any creepier than religious ones. In fact, I'm not saying either is creepy. Rather, that you can't say one is but not the other.

[Square]

All I can say is, for God's sake, please nobody get Det started on Space Camp.

Sounds like Hitler to me. I mean serious, it's not a difference of perspective.

[Ursa Majoris]

Maybe read the next sentence down where I say there is no difference. All groups indoctrinate, from peer groups to organizations to countries. My point is that it is entirely arbitrary and up to your perspective which groups are acceptable or unacceptable.

 

So I don't really get what he's going on about. It's your decision what you wish "indoctrinate" your kids or yourself to, not something that should really be up for debate in a free society.

You said:

people tend to respect freedom of religion a bit more than they do force-fed ideology

He is saying that Bible camp is every bit the same force feeding of ideology as a political camp.

 

That's really it. I tend to agree with you - if people want to brainwash their kids, let them. After all, that's what child-rearing largely is - the guidance of behavior and attitudes.

[detlef]

I'd answer which I think it is, but I'd have to rely on my perspective...

 

So what Az thinks they're creepy? So do I, but that's just because I'm as jaded as gets when it comes to politics... That's just my personal perspective though... I'm also jaded on organized religion after my experiences with it, but again, that's just my perspective...

 

So in essence I agree with what you're saying, but that doesn't mean that everyone else has to... That's precisely what makes this a great country.

So, just curious. Do you think people come here to state opinions and just let it sit? Of all people, someone like Azz? What, exactly would be the point of lighting rod topics if everyone would just come here, say what they felt and expect that belief not to be challenged?

 

This is a debate. Where people say bold things and other people come along and disagree with them.

 

So, Azz said this was creepy.

 

I said, no creepier than a religious camp

 

And he dismissed that as some kooky notion akin to the type of rants one would attribute to someone that basically everyone agrees is the local loony.

 

So, now it's a debate.

[detlef]

You said:

 

He is saying that Bible camp is every bit the same force feeding of ideology as a political camp.

 

That's really it. I tend to agree with you - if people want to brainwash their kids, let them. After all, that's what child-rearing largely is - the guidance of behavior and attitudes.

And, frankly, I'm cool with that as well. They bought 'em, they can shape 'em. I'm not condemning bible camp. Just saying it's no better than political camp.

[Azazello1313]

So, again, the difference?

 

seriously? did I not just explain the difference as I see it?

 

let me try one more time. we both agree, do we not, that "force feeding of ideology" to children is somewhat creepy? now I agree that religious education CAN be "force feeding of ideology" (I never saw "jesus camp", but it sounds as if some of the clips portray exactly that sort of thing). however, in my experience, generally it is about personal spiritual growth and christian (or jewish, or whatever) fellowship -- stuff that is not adversarial toward anyone or anything. likewise, if it were some sort of "civics camp", like the thing you described, or a school trip to washington, or some sort of history camp or what have you -- that's all great as far as I'm concerned, to the extent it is NOT force-feeding an ideology. but again, a poltical party, the whole raison d'etre is to basically defeat other political parties. it is pushing ideological contention by its very definition. to start doing that with kids as young as 14 (or 15!) is, to me, creepy and inappropriate.

 

a religious message CAN be divisive or stigmatizing, but it needn't be -- and in fact, most aren't (anyone suggesting otherwise is simply ignorant). a political message is divisive and stigmatizing by defintion. as I've said before, the line between creepy and not creepy can be difficult to draw, and it's subjective. but a program by a political party aimed at 14 year olds is going to be on the creepy side 100% of the time for me.

 

to bring it back to the original post....what is it about the hitler youth, in particular, that people find distasteful? of course, as dutifully reflexive post WWII westerners, we all abhor naziism in general....but is there not something especially stomach-churning about this indoctrination of the german youth?

[bushwacked]

What's the over/under on how many merit badges Az earned in young Republican camp?

[wiegie]

What's the over/under on how many merit badges Az earned in young Republican camp?

uh, they don't give out "merit" badges at the young Republican camp--the number of badges you get is determined by your parents' wealth

Edited July 27, 2011 by wiegie

[bushwacked]

uh, they don't give out "merit" badges at the young Republican camp--the number of badges you get is determined by your parents' wealth

 

I heard you can burgle for badges.

[delusions of grandeur]

to bring it back to the original post....what is it about the hitler youth, in particular, that people find distasteful? of course, as dutifully reflexive post WWII westerners, we all abhor naziism in general....but is there not something especially stomach-churning about this indoctrination of the german youth?

 

Couldn't let Detlef catch all the fish could you?

 

Perhaps it was the word right before the one you bolded, that was used in reference to a group that just underwent a mass-shooting? Is that enough, or do we need to look for more reasons?

 

I mean, it's the same type of crazy to condone the bombing abortion clinics, to compare victims of a mass-murder to Hitler, regardless if they share the one common trait of political indoctrination. You can't overstate how much of a distasteful and poor comparison that is...

Edited July 27, 2011 by delusions of granduer

[bpwallace49]

I miss perch. . .

[McBoog]

I miss perch. . .

 

All I know is that my pastor as well as the children's ministry at my church asked us all to pray for the victims and families of this horrific event. No judgement, no finger pointing, just thinking about those who were effected most.

 

That right there is the difference between the word of Christ and a Politically motivated organization. This is why I send my kids to summer camp at the Church. The political youth camp thingy I can do perfectly well at home thank you!

 

AND... as a "reformed Catholic", don't get me started on the Vatican.

[Azazello1313]

...it's the same type of crazy to condone the bombing abortion clinics, to compare victims of a mass-murder to Hitler...

 

[bushwacked]

I miss perch. . .

 

He still goes off on Zobama on facebook.

[Ditkaless Wonders]

Indoctrination or kerfuffle?

[detlef]

seriously? did I not just explain the difference as I see it?

 

let me try one more time. we both agree, do we not, that "force feeding of ideology" to children is somewhat creepy? now I agree that religious education CAN be "force feeding of ideology" (I never saw "jesus camp", but it sounds as if some of the clips portray exactly that sort of thing). however, in my experience, generally it is about personal spiritual growth and christian (or jewish, or whatever) fellowship -- stuff that is not adversarial toward anyone or anything. likewise, if it were some sort of "civics camp", like the thing you described, or a school trip to washington, or some sort of history camp or what have you -- that's all great as far as I'm concerned, to the extent it is NOT force-feeding an ideology. but again, a poltical party, the whole raison d'etre is to basically defeat other political parties. it is pushing ideological contention by its very definition. to start doing that with kids as young as 14 (or 15!) is, to me, creepy and inappropriate.

 

a religious message CAN be divisive or stigmatizing, but it needn't be -- and in fact, most aren't (anyone suggesting otherwise is simply ignorant). a political message is divisive and stigmatizing by defintion. as I've said before, the line between creepy and not creepy can be difficult to draw, and it's subjective. but a program by a political party aimed at 14 year olds is going to be on the creepy side 100% of the time for me.

 

to bring it back to the original post....what is it about the hitler youth, in particular, that people find distasteful? of course, as dutifully reflexive post WWII westerners, we all abhor naziism in general....but is there not something especially stomach-churning about this indoctrination of the german youth?

But you need to make a number of conveniently poor thought out conclusions to have the difference as clear as you want it to be.

 

1) You need to assume, not only are the vast majority of religious camps totally unlike "Jesus Camp" but also that the vast majority of political youth camps are. How can you say that? How can you assume that they're not simply promoting a specific ideology without trashing another. Perhaps they're just teaching the values of their party. In the case of a liberal camp, the importance of labor, the value in propping up the lowest among us. At a conservative camp, the value of the individual.

 

You've just decided, without really knowing for sure, that a youth camp sponsored by a political party is all about throwing rotten fruit at photos of leaders of another party. Or, at least, is any more inclined to be so than a religious camp is. Simply because the one you've associated with is mellow. After all, there is evidence of at least one such religious camp in the US. Is there some long list of even reasonably mainstream youth political camps that are on par with Jesus Camp in terms of scariness?

 

2) You have to overplay the us vs them part of politics and ignore it in the church. Again, despite the massive body of evidence that supports a ton of us vs them situation in the church. Maybe not in faith. Maybe not even in religion, but in the church as it is portrayed by man. Politics shouldn't be what it's become, where everyone is digging their heels and shouting insults at one another, but by and large it has. But the church shouldn't either and it very much has as well. And we see it every day.

 

Are there a ton of examples of religious people who rise above that crap and just do good things? Absolutely. But the same is true in politics, even if not at the highest level. But let's make one thing abundantly clear. I didn't decide the church is in politics. they did. A long freaking time ago and they really haven't let up the gas pedal in that regard. Which makes it even harder to draw a clear line between a religious camp and a political camp, because the church, in general, has never done a very good job of distancing itself from politics. Even if god doesn't actually want any part of it.

 

But one thing that can't be denied is that, if you truly believe in your religion, you have to believe the stories. That much I got from Savage Beatings. I asked him straight up if you could be a good Christian if you simply agreed with the morality and yet just assumed that the stories were fables invented to get the point across. He said, flat out, "no". If you're a Christian, you believe all that happened.

 

OK than, each religion has it's own batch of stories, and apparently anyone who considers them as belonging to one of them has to think that their story is true, and thus, that inconsistent stories must be false. Sort of like two people on different sides of the isle. One thinking the best way to fix the economy is to cut taxes, the other thinking the best way is increase them and prop up those who need it. One of the other is true, but ultimately, the sides meet in the middle. They essentially agree to disagree and find a balance. Sort of like two rational people from different religions. Both know the other is wrong because it could have all only gone down one way, but they just accept that the net result is to be cool, so they agree to disagree and move on.

 

However, if you start a camp that teaches one of these sides of the story, you are, by default teaching that any conflicting story is not true. Well, at least you have to say so if you're prepared to say that a camp sponsored by a political party is, by default, an attack on another party. Even if all they're doing is extolling the values of their party.

Edited July 28, 2011 by detlef

[Clubfoothead]

I don't know why you are wasting your time. When it is indoctrination Az agrees with it's not creepy. When it is indoctrination he disagrees with, it is creepy. This isn't rocket surgery.

[SEC=UGA]

I don't know why you are wasting your time. When it is indoctrination Az agrees with it's not creepy. When it is indoctrination he disagrees with, it is creepy. This isn't rocket surgery.

 

This pretty much holds true for EVERYONE. But, i understand what yer sayin.

[TimC]

I didn't think of Adolf Hitler...I thought of Darth Vader.