detlef Posted August 16, 2011 Share Posted August 16, 2011 (edited) Yes, but CJ's given them three years of stand-up gestures. The ultimate team player, never misses games or practices, carries the franchise on his back. No other running back has gained more football yardage in the last three years. The Titans can fly to him a la Revis and pay the man. They have a plane. I think he is concerned that LAST YEAR he wanted a new long term deal because had WAY out played his existing one and they threw some good faith money at him for past year and a deal never got done. I don't think he is gonna do that again. He already risked his big pay day last year for his team and they didn't pay him... IMO Fair enough arguments both, but you can't blame Tenn for wanting to wait until after a new CBA was signed to ink a long-term contract. Mind you, not sure what their excuse is now. I get what you guys are saying and agree they should pay the kid. My point is this, if all I had to do was get on a plane and meet in the guy's office who is about to scratch me a check for something north of $25 million, plus whatever other money is going to be on that contract, I think I could manage. That's not too much to ask and I don't think undermines my bargaining stance any. Again, just fly and meet them in Tenn and make it bloody clear that I'm not suiting up or going to a single meeting. I'm flying there to sign what I assume is a contract that represents what we both know is what it should be. Fat as hell. That, frankly, I'm more than a bit annoyed that you're not just taking care of this but, what the hell. If that's what it takes to get this done, so be it. That I'll be effing furious and will walk out if you make me fight for it. Me getting on this plane means I'm ready to take care of this. You'd better be ready as well. Edited August 16, 2011 by detlef Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Savage Beatings Posted August 16, 2011 Share Posted August 16, 2011 Fair enough arguments both, but you can't blame Tenn for wanting to wait until after a new CBA was signed to ink a long-term contract. Mind you, not sure what their excuse is now. I get what you guys are saying and agree they should pay the kid. My point is this, if all I had to do was get on a plane and meet in the guy's office who is about to scratch me a check for something north of $25 million, plus whatever other money is going to be on that contract, I think I could manage. That's not too much to ask and I don't think undermines my bargaining stance any. Again, just fly and meet them in Tenn and make it bloody clear that I'm not suiting up or going to a single meeting. I'm flying there to sign what I assume is a contract that represents what we both know is what it should be. Fat as hell. That, frankly, I'm more than a bit annoyed that you're not just taking care of this but, what the hell. If that's what it takes to get this done, so be it. That I'll be effing furious and will walk out if you make me fight for it. Me getting on this plane means I'm ready to take care of this. You'd better be ready as well. But I don't think that's what Titans Manamgement has said to him. They've said that he needs to report to camp, haven't they? I could totally be wrong about that, but that was my understanding. Reporting to camp is not the same as meeting in someone's office. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flemingd Posted August 16, 2011 Share Posted August 16, 2011 Fair enough arguments both, but you can't blame Tenn for wanting to wait until after a new CBA was signed to ink a long-term contract. Mind you, not sure what their excuse is now. I get what you guys are saying and agree they should pay the kid. My point is this, if all I had to do was get on a plane and meet in the guy's office who is about to scratch me a check for something north of $25 million, plus whatever other money is going to be on that contract, I think I could manage. That's not too much to ask and I don't think undermines my bargaining stance any. Again, just fly and meet them in Tenn and make it bloody clear that I'm not suiting up or going to a single meeting. I'm flying there to sign what I assume is a contract that represents what we both know is what it should be. Fat as hell. That, frankly, I'm more than a bit annoyed that you're not just taking care of this but, what the hell. If that's what it takes to get this done, so be it. That I'll be effing furious and will walk out if you make me fight for it. Me getting on this plane means I'm ready to take care of this. You'd better be ready as well. Agree 95%. I'd be willing to hit meeting and film to learn the offense - no risk, a good investment in time, and a strong show of good faith. It's also a great way to fire a warning shot - if progress isn't good, you stop going to the meetings. Get the contract done or my next step is onto a plane back home. This is all assuming, of course, he's not looking for QB money. That's laughable, even for CJ. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
detlef Posted August 16, 2011 Share Posted August 16, 2011 But I don't think that's what Titans Manamgement has said to him. They've said that he needs to report to camp, haven't they? I could totally be wrong about that, but that was my understanding. Reporting to camp is not the same as meeting in someone's office. Right, but this is a negotiation. You say you want me in camp. I say, "How 'bout I just come to Tennessee. We'll sit down, knock this thing out, and I'll be on the field by noon. Problem solved." I guess my concern would be, how long does this really need to take? If they have any intention of giving him close to what he wants (and I understand if they don't want to pay him like Tom Brady), how does this take more than a few hours once you're in the same room? And if he wants Tom Brady money and they're literally 10s of millions of dollars apart, then I don't see how this thing gets done whether he's in camp, at home, or wherever. If they want him to practice so they can drag it out a few days and let his coaches and teammates tug on his heart-strings, then they're not legitimately interested in paying him like they should be. And if they won't meet him half-way on this by just sitting down with him in their office and working it out, then screw them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JUMbotron Posted August 16, 2011 Share Posted August 16, 2011 Right, but this is a negotiation. You say you want me in camp. I say, "How 'bout I just come to Tennessee. We'll sit down, knock this thing out, and I'll be on the field by noon. Problem solved." I guess my concern would be, how long does this really need to take? If they have any intention of giving him close to what he wants (and I understand if they don't want to pay him like Tom Brady), how does this take more than a few hours once you're in the same room? And if he wants Tom Brady money and they're literally 10s of millions of dollars apart, then I don't see how this thing gets done whether he's in camp, at home, or wherever. If they want him to practice so they can drag it out a few days and let his coaches and teammates tug on his heart-strings, then they're not legitimately interested in paying him like they should be. And if they won't meet him half-way on this by just sitting down with him in their office and working it out, then screw them. I might add: He has to report, which means he has to practice, which means he could blow his knee out running the cones, which means he and his extended bloodline won't see a dime. Chris Johnson will not report without a contract. The Titans (and Reinfeldt) know this but they are held hostage by an 87-year old man drinking gin and growling. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh 0ne Posted August 16, 2011 Share Posted August 16, 2011 an 87-year old man drinking gin and growling. Why do you hate Rockrobn? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Holy Roller Posted August 16, 2011 Share Posted August 16, 2011 Why do you hate Rockrobn? Not gin. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big John Posted August 16, 2011 Share Posted August 16, 2011 Not gin. And not 87 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HowboutthemCowboys Posted August 16, 2011 Share Posted August 16, 2011 Right, but this is a negotiation. You say you want me in camp. I say, "How 'bout I just come to Tennessee. We'll sit down, knock this thing out, and I'll be on the field by noon. Problem solved." I guess my concern would be, how long does this really need to take? If they have any intention of giving him close to what he wants (and I understand if they don't want to pay him like Tom Brady), how does this take more than a few hours once you're in the same room? And if he wants Tom Brady money and they're literally 10s of millions of dollars apart, then I don't see how this thing gets done whether he's in camp, at home, or wherever. If they want him to practice so they can drag it out a few days and let his coaches and teammates tug on his heart-strings, then they're not legitimately interested in paying him like they should be. And if they won't meet him half-way on this by just sitting down with him in their office and working it out, then screw them. I might add: He has to report, which means he has to practice, which means he could blow his knee out running the cones, which means he and his extended bloodline won't see a dime. Chris Johnson will not report without a contract. The Titans (and Reinfeldt) know this but they are held hostage by an 87-year old man drinking gin and growling. Am I missing something? He's under contract...correct? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TitansFan Posted August 16, 2011 Share Posted August 16, 2011 (edited) I might add: He has to report, which means he has to practice, which means he could blow his knee out running the cones, which means he and his extended bloodline won't see a dime. Chris Johnson will not report without a contract. The Titans (and Reinfeldt) know this but they are held hostage by an 87-year old man drinking gin and growling. False. They've simply asked him to come in and at least attend meetings while negotiations occur. I admit I'm disappointed he hasn't even done that, but I do understand his position as well. I'm on the fence on this one. Edited to add: Am I missing something? He's under contract...correct? Yes, he's under contract. However, last year he accepted a modified deal that would immediately give him some of the money that was due to him later in the contract. That deal came with an understanding that he would receive a new, large deal this year. That's what has caused all this. Edited August 16, 2011 by TitansFan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JUMbotron Posted August 16, 2011 Share Posted August 16, 2011 False. They've simply asked him to come in and at least attend meetings while negotiations occur. I admit I'm disappointed he hasn't even done that, but I do understand his position as well. I'm on the fence on this one. Edited to add: Yes, he's under contract. However, last year he accepted a modified deal that would immediately give him some of the money that was due to him later in the contract. That deal came with an understanding that he would receive a new, large deal this year. That's what has caused all this. Johnson has to report to the team, officially report to Reinfeldt and Lake Dawson (VP) just like any rostered player did and does. He is a contract holdout accruing fines so they must file papers and get him reported. They aren't going to meet CJ at Cracker Barrel on Gallatin Rd and all three sit in those rocking chairs out front. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TitansFan Posted August 16, 2011 Share Posted August 16, 2011 Johnson has to report to the team, officially report to Reinfeldt and Lake Dawson (VP) just like any rostered player did and does. He is a contract holdout accruing fines so they must file papers and get him reported. They aren't going to meet CJ at Cracker Barrel on Gallatin Rd and all three sit in those rocking chairs out front. Yes, I know that. However, you stated that he'd be required to practice, which, as the link I provided in my previous post shows, is not necessarily the case. That is why I said your statement was false. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hooknladder Posted August 16, 2011 Share Posted August 16, 2011 exactly, he's just meeting them half-way. They want him in camp, he says, "how 'bout I just come to Tenn. Then we head into a room and do this." He wants 30, they obviously want to pay less. That's cool. If he flies to Tenn and they offer 25, then that's a reasonable starting place. They end up at 27.5 and dude is in practice by the afternoon. But if he shows up and they say 15, then he walks out because they're obviously not sincere in saying they want to make him the highest paid RB. I agree with everyone who says it's BS that they demand he gets in camp. I'm just saying it would be a stand-up gesture to fly to TN. did you read my previous post? it's impossible to return under those circumstances. for the crap money he's getting he should not even pick up the phone let alone travel. his production/pay ratio is ridiculous,,,,the Titans had it too good for too long. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bronco Billy Posted August 16, 2011 Share Posted August 16, 2011 Last I saw, CJ was looking for $39M for 3 years, with $30M of it guaranteed. That's not P Manning money, but it is about 30% more than the highest paid RB (Reggie Bush) made last year, and about twice what the #5 paid RB made. It seems like CJ is looking for money he likely isn't going to get.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bronco Billy Posted August 16, 2011 Share Posted August 16, 2011 (edited) Also, FWIW, it looks like TEN would have to clear at least another $4M and maybe more depending upon his annual salary to be able to meet CJ's number. That ought to make him a hit in the locker room when/if he gets signed. Edited August 16, 2011 by Bronco Billy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hooknladder Posted August 16, 2011 Share Posted August 16, 2011 Also, FWIW, it looks like TEN would have to clear at least another $4M and maybe more depending upon his annual salary to be able to meet CJ's number. That ought to make him a hit in the locker room when/if he gets signed. again, this kind of posturing is routine. the players in the lockeroom know it's just business. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HowboutthemCowboys Posted August 16, 2011 Share Posted August 16, 2011 False. Yes, he's under contract. However, last year he accepted a modified deal that would immediately give him some of the money that was due to him later in the contract. That deal came with an understanding that he would receive a new, large deal this year. That's what has caused all this. gracias Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
detlef Posted August 16, 2011 Share Posted August 16, 2011 Last I saw, CJ was looking for $39M for 3 years, with $30M of it guaranteed. That's not P Manning money, but it is about 30% more than the highest paid RB (Reggie Bush) made last year, and about twice what the #5 paid RB made. It seems like CJ is looking for money he likely isn't going to get.... 1) Asking for 30% more than what Bush made seems reasonable for a guy who has been the horse he's been 2) Are we assuming that he's not prepared to budge even a little? So, he asks for $39 million with $30 million up front. Maybe he gets $35 with $27 up front. The one thing about these contracts, is that you can't fault the players for wanting as much up front as they can get. Because the contract doesn't go both ways. Whenever a player under contract holds out for more, so many are quick to cry, "You signed a contract! Honor the contract!" Of course, the second a guy is worn out or no good, management won't think twice about cutting a dude who is under contract. So it's the same both ways. Owners don't need to keep paying a guy if they think he's not worth it, so why fault a player for refusing to play if he doesn't think the contract isn't worth it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
electricrelish Posted August 16, 2011 Share Posted August 16, 2011 Owners don't need to keep paying a guy if they think he's not worth it, so why fault a player for refusing to play if he doesn't think the contract isn't worth it? Totally agree. I don't fault the player at all. RB's are chewed up. Chris Johnson has proven he's not a one-year wonder by any means, and is one of the elite players in the league. He should be paid accordingly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hooknladder Posted August 17, 2011 Share Posted August 17, 2011 That said, I don't know why he doesn't say, "I'll report tomorrow, along with my agent. Then we can all walk upstairs to the conference room and bang this thing out. Once that's done, I'll get dressed and hit the field." you're contradicting yourself in this thread. the quote above is naive from a business perspective. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hooknladder Posted August 17, 2011 Share Posted August 17, 2011 he cannot come back to meetings, etc. -where he will be implored by teamates and coaches alike to capitulate for the sake of the team, -without losing leverage. asking for 30 mil and expecting it are two different things. this kind of brinksmanship is typical of any negotiations. this Detlef. to report IS to capitulate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ditkaless Wonders Posted August 17, 2011 Share Posted August 17, 2011 1) Asking for 30% more than what Bush made seems reasonable for a guy who has been the horse he's been2) Are we assuming that he's not prepared to budge even a little? So, he asks for $39 million with $30 million up front. Maybe he gets $35 with $27 up front. The one thing about these contracts, is that you can't fault the players for wanting as much up front as they can get. Because the contract doesn't go both ways. Whenever a player under contract holds out for more, so many are quick to cry, "You signed a contract! Honor the contract!" Of course, the second a guy is worn out or no good, management won't think twice about cutting a dude who is under contract. So it's the same both ways. Owners don't need to keep paying a guy if they think he's not worth it, so why fault a player for refusing to play if he doesn't think the contract isn't worth it? Just a little picadillo of mine here, but I see this argument so often, and it is flat out wrong. The owners honor contracts. They honor the contract when they pay the gauranteed money. They honor the contract with roster bonuses, work out bonus, reporting bonuses, making weight bonuses, not partying with Roethlisberger bonuses, and biweekly in-season pay checks. Now one of the things the owners have paid for with the signing bonus is the right, I'll type it again, the right, to terminate the contract. What they have a contract for is that the player's rights belong to them for a term certain, and if, if, they wish him to be on their roster during that term certain for a yearly wage as well. If they choose to not want them on the roster they have bargained for, and paid for that right. The contract is honored. There is no enforceable expectancy the contract will run to term as the owner has actually paid for flexibility and the player has accepted that term. Now when players sign a contract and take the signing bonus they know this. They know they might perform better than expected, they know they might perform worse. They also know they may get immediately injured and provide their employer zero value for the money they recieve. They make a calculated risk assessment. When they play well they forget the risk the owner took and now say the owner owes them more. Nonesense from a legal point of view. Absolutely unsupportable. That is why you never see a player sue over the contract. It just can't happen. (at least under normal and circumstances. It is possible some guy may structure a whole new contract scheme someday.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hooknladder Posted August 17, 2011 Share Posted August 17, 2011 Just a little picadillo of mine here, but I see this argument so often, and it is flat out wrong. The owners honor contracts. They honor the contract when they pay the gauranteed money. They honor the contract with roster bonuses, work out bonus, reporting bonuses, making weight bonuses, not partying with Roethlisberger bonuses, and biweekly in-season pay checks. Now one of the things the owners have paid for with the signing bonus is the right, I'll type it again, the right, to terminate the contract. What they have a contract for is that the player's rights belong to them for a term certain, and if, if, they wish him to be on their roster during that term certain for a yearly wage as well. If they choose to not want them on the roster they have bargained for, and paid for that right. The contract is honored. There is no enforceable expectancy the contract will run to term as the owner has actually paid for flexibility and the player has accepted that term. Now when players sign a contract and take the signing bonus they know this. They know they might perform better than expected, they know they might perform worse. They also know they may get immediately injured and provide their employer zero value for the money they recieve. They make a calculated risk assessment. When they play well they forget the risk the owner took and now say the owner owes them more. Nonesense from a legal point of view. Absolutely unsupportable. That is why you never see a player sue over the contract. It just can't happen. (at least under normal and circumstances. It is possible some guy may structure a whole new contract scheme someday.) well written and all true, -but it does not change the reality, which is that this sort of situation is routine when players feel they have out-performed their contract and there is a market to support that (right, or wrong). why would Johnson report without a contract (and lose leverage) or settle for less than he wants when he could just sit out a year and realize a number much closer to what he wants than 900k? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ditkaless Wonders Posted August 17, 2011 Share Posted August 17, 2011 (edited) well written and all true, -but it does not change the reality, which is that this sort of situation is routine when players feel they have out-performed their contract and there is a market to support that (right, or wrong). why would Johnson report without a contract (and lose leverage) or settle for less than he wants when he could just sit out a year and realize a number much closer to what he wants than 900k? I am not advocating one way or another on Johnson's decisions. I merely chaff when I see people make this very wrong"legal" argument because the frequency of repetition makes others believe so strongly in patent fallacy that they will actually argue with those who know better, and feel they have a point. Edited August 17, 2011 by Ditkaless Wonders Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hooknladder Posted August 17, 2011 Share Posted August 17, 2011 I am not advocating one way or another on Johnson's decisions. I merely chaff when I see people make this very wrong"legal" argument because the frequency of repition makes others believe so strongly in patent fallacy theat they will actually argue with those who know better, and feel they have a point. i know your just trying to educate and not advocate, i'm just trying to tie it into this thread Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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