Fran Tarkenton

[Clubfoothead]

So I'm guessing Tarkenton supports teachers rights to collectively bargain and an average annual salarary of $1.9 million a year for working 17 weeks of the year and preparing for those 17 the other 35?

 

Solid.

[Pope Flick]

Keep in mind as well that Tark is no doubt a member of SAG from his That's incredible days so this rings a bit hollow on that level too: he wasn't paid below scale because he sucked at anything but reading cue cars I assure you.

[Yukon Cornelius]

every teacher i know got into teaching so they could be rich .......

[detlef]

every teacher i know got into teaching so they could be rich .......

That's the funny thing. If you listened to some, you'd think that what we really need is to hold teacher's collective feet to the fire because they're getting fat and happy and don't care about results. I don't know, maybe some are. But the ones I know do it because they love it. And the hours they put in simply do not add up in terms of what many outside that profession make.

 

It's all just another effing "boogie man" schtick. What isn't wrong with our country is the fact that the ratio of CEO income to average worker income makes us look like a banana republic compared to, well, some banana republics. What is, apparently, wrong with our country is that teachers are laughing their way to the bank.

[Boilerduff]

I'm not sure our education levels are where they should be, anyone want to argue otherwise? Something needs to change, to improve it, and this seems like low hanging fruit to me.

 

It's been proven, repeatedly, that what gets rewarded gets done. If there is no incentive, there is no drive. Certainly you can argue that there are exceptions to the rule, in both directions, but I thought the premise of the article was good. What is wrong with accountability?

 

If all of these teachers are so good, if their quality was rewarded, would they be upset? Conversely, should a teacher that is of less quality be rewarded the same as a less qualified one? I have a hard time with the argument that judging teachers is somehow wrong, and rewarding teachers in accordance with the quality of their work is somehow wrong. The argument that you can't judge fairly is BS in my opinion. They can be evaluated like everyone else can be evaluated. Would it be perfect? No, but any incentive to excel at teaching our young people should be explored and utilized.

 

It can only improve the situation, IMO

[Clubfoothead]

I'm not sure our education levels are where they should be, anyone want to argue otherwise?

 

My daughter's public elementary school here in Dallas is as good, if not better, than any private school in the area.

[detlef]

I'm not sure our education levels are where they should be, anyone want to argue otherwise? Something needs to change, to improve it, and this seems like low hanging fruit to me.

 

It's been proven, repeatedly, that what gets rewarded gets done. If there is no incentive, there is no drive. Certainly you can argue that there are exceptions to the rule, in both directions, but I thought the premise of the article was good. What is wrong with accountability?

 

If all of these teachers are so good, if their quality was rewarded, would they be upset? Conversely, should a teacher that is of less quality be rewarded the same as a less qualified one? I have a hard time with the argument that judging teachers is somehow wrong, and rewarding teachers in accordance with the quality of their work is somehow wrong. The argument that you can't judge fairly is BS in my opinion. They can be evaluated like everyone else can be evaluated. Would it be perfect? No, but any incentive to excel at teaching our young people should be explored and utilized.

 

It can only improve the situation, IMO

What I'm always curious about is, how do we "reward good teachers" without increasing the education budget? Or is the "reward" for excelling at a job that you're not going to get rich doing simply not getting fired. I'm sure that'll make a ton of people want to do it.

[evil_gop_liars]

What I'm always curious about is, how do we "reward good teachers" without increasing the education budget? Or is the "reward" for excelling at a job that you're not going to get rich doing simply not getting fired. I'm sure that'll make a ton of people want to do it.

 

This.

[Yukon Cornelius]

What I'm always curious about is, how do we "reward good teachers" without increasing the education budget? Or is the "reward" for excelling at a job that you're not going to get rich doing simply not getting fired. I'm sure that'll make a ton of people want to do it.

yup

[gbpfan1231]

What I'm always curious about is, how do we "reward good teachers" without increasing the education budget? Or is the "reward" for excelling at a job that you're not going to get rich doing simply not getting fired. I'm sure that'll make a ton of people want to do it.

So you then agree that if a school has two science teachers - one is a lazy person who frankly skates by and is not a good teacher - the other may be like Robin - very motivated and cares a ton about the kids and is considered a great teacher. The lazy teacher should be paid the same as Robin?

 

This does not mean all teachers are underpaid or even that the union stinks - all I am saying is that you will get some people who will lose the motivation to work hard when they do not get rewarded for it. That is what I took from the article and can see some truth in it.

[Deathpig]

I'm just curious what everyone feels is the 'problem' with education? The US spends more per student K-12 than any country that isn't Switzerland, but our return on that money is pretty poor. The issue isn't completely spending, as we're spending quite a bit more than countries that have far better performing students. The assertion here is that teachers aren't the problem, because we have some anecdotal evidence (thank God it wasn't Perch providing it) to the contrary.

 

What IS the problem?

 

 

And as for teachers... good luck on creating an objective system that identifies 'good' teacher (if you can even define what a 'good' teacher is). In theory, I love the idea of rewarding performance but to do that you have to define what good looks like for a teacher in some objective fashion which seems incredibly difficult to me.

[gbpfan1231]

I'm just curious what everyone feels is the 'problem' with education? The US spends more per student K-12 than any country that isn't Switzerland, but our return on that money is pretty poor. The issue isn't completely spending, as we're spending quite a bit more than countries that have far better performing students. The assertion here is that teachers aren't the problem, because we have some anecdotal evidence (thank God it wasn't Perch providing it) to the contrary.

 

What IS the problem?

 

 

And as for teachers... good luck on creating an objective system that identifies 'good' teacher (if you can even define what a 'good' teacher is). In theory, I love the idea of rewarding performance but to do that you have to define what good looks like for a teacher in some objective fashion which seems incredibly difficult to me.

Let's let the teachers answer your question. Robin - what makes you a good teacher? Can the administrators not see or notice a good teacher from a bad?

 

Why is it so difficult to determine if a teacher is good or bad? I agree you can't use standard test scores but maybe if administrators spent more time observing in the classroom I would think it would be pretty obvious who is good or better than someone else????

 

Edit - an example of this is a tech college here in town - there is a teacher who teaches Excel classes - mainly to adults - when you get to class the teacher says open your book to chapter 10 and read and do the assignments - he then sits at his desk and does whatever he does while all the students do the work on their own.

 

When someone has a question they ask the question and this teacher says "can anyone answer the question?" If nobody can then the teacher will answer the question. This person is not a teacher in my mind but gets the same pay as other teachers who teach Excel and or Word/Access - this just does not seem right to me. It is obvious to anyone who spends 10 minutes in the class room that this is not a good teacher.

 

On the flip side my accounting teacher was hands on and was a great teacher and again if you spent 10 minutes in his class you would know immediately he was a great teacher.

Edited October 6, 2011 by gbpfan1231

[Azazello1313]

So I'm guessing Tarkenton supports teachers rights to collectively bargain and an average annual salarary of $1.9 million a year for working 17 weeks of the year and preparing for those 17 the other 35?

 

Solid.

 

this was actually my first thought too. :shudder:

 

he rather tortures what was an inapt analogy to begin with. but I guess there's no way tarkenton gets an op-ed in the WSJ unless he's comparing something to the NFL.

Edited October 6, 2011 by Azazello1313

[gbpfan1231]

this was actually my first thought too. :shudder:

 

he rather tortures what was an inapt analogy to begin with. but I guess there's no way tarkenton gets an op-ed in the WSJ unless he's comparing something to the NFL.

I don't think that was what he was tryng to say at all - he is not ripping the union - he is ripping the way teachers get rewarded (or lack of).

 

From what I read all he is saying is why pay a bad teacher who has worked for 10 years the same as a good teacher who has worked for 10 years. Is it wrong for him to express this opinion. He thinks that makes the level of education suffer because people have less motivation.

 

he is comparing it to the NFL by saying the NFL does not pay a QB who is in the league as a backup for 5 years the same as a pro bowl starter who is in the league for 5 years. Do you think if both of tose QB's were paid the same you may see some level of talent go down? Why work your ass of to be the pro bowl player if you are not rewarded?

[bushwacked]

There are many things that aren't perfect with wage compensation in the public servant world, including the teaching occupation. I wasn't aware that people needed to read Fran Tarkenton drivel with a misguided analogy to figure that out. There's nothing "smart" or groundbreaking in that commentary.

[Boilerduff]

What I'm always curious about is, how do we "reward good teachers" without increasing the education budget? Or is the "reward" for excelling at a job that you're not going to get rich doing simply not getting fired. I'm sure that'll make a ton of people want to do it.

 

 

I have a hard time thinking that if we throw more money at the problem it will help, but maybe it is how the money is distributed that will help. How much of the education money is wasted? I don't have any proof, but I am guessing that there is a lot, as is the case with 99 percent of government programs. Plus make a cut in your program dujour, and bang you have more education money, without raising taxes. ( hypotheticals of course.) More money to teachers, and less to unions ?

 

There are many ways to reward, or incentivize people. Money is one, recognition is another. My point is simply this. What gets incentivized gets done. It's logical and proven. Why teachers are afraid to get evaluated concerns me. The argument of there is no fair way of doing it is, in my opinion borne from a union mentality, which doesn't want risk. Who doesn't have risk? Are they that worried that they are going to get a bad review and if so, maybe they should do something differently?

 

My kids have a good school as well. We like my kids teachers as well. I have nothing against teachers. I believe they are underpaid. There is a lot of room for improvement, from what I can tell, and a lot of politicians in the way.

[gbpfan1231]

There are many things that aren't perfect with wage compensation in the public servant world, including the teaching occupation. I wasn't aware that people needed to read Fran Tarkenton drivel with a misguided analogy to figure that out. There's nothing "smart" or groundbreaking in that commentary.

Please explain why his analogy is wrong. He is NOT comparing the current NFL to the current Teacher occupation. All he is comparing is that NFL players get paid based on performance.

 

At least that is what I read.

[Yukon Cornelius]

There are many ways to reward, or incentivize people. Money is one, recognition is another. My point is simply this. What gets incentivized gets done. It's logical and proven. Why teachers are afraid to get evaluated concerns me. The argument of there is no fair way of doing it is, in my opinion borne from a union mentality, which doesn't want risk. Who doesn't have risk? Are they that worried that they are going to get a bad review and if so, maybe they should do something differently?

I am evaluated 5 times a quarter, 4 times a year. Simple math tells me that is 20 times a year. A quarter is 13 weeks long so that works out to .38461538461538..... times per week. I am not sure how many times you want someone in the class? What would be a good number? once a week, every day ?

 

like I have said before I have no knowledge of a teacher becoming a teacher to get rich, or in fact to make a lot of money. I make a decent wage, I don't complain about it but I certainly don't think I am over payed.

 

Much of this has to do with different regions of the country or even different school districts in states. The district I work in is one of the top schools in Wisconsin. If you are not doing your job you will be removed from it.

[bpwallace49]

I am evaluated 5 times a quarter, 4 times a year. Simple math tells me that is 20 times a year. A quarter is 13 weeks long so that works out to .38461538461538..... times per week. I am not sure how many times you want someone in the class? What would be a good number? once a week, every day ?

 

like I have said before I have no knowledge of a teacher becoming a teacher to get rich, or in fact to make a lot of money. I make a decent wage, I don't complain about it but I certainly don't think I am over payed.

 

Much of this has to do with different regions of the country or even different school districts in states. The district I work in is one of the top schools in Wisconsin. If you are not doing your job you will be removed from it.

 

Now compare that to yearly reviews for most in the private sector? . . .

 

Despite overwhelming opposition to the op-ed, gbpfan continues his crusade against teachers . . .

[Azazello1313]

I am evaluated 5 times a quarter, 4 times a year.

 

and I'm sure these are rigorous examinations with stiff consequences for subpar performance and missed goals.

 

anyway, I asked fran tarkenton about this and he said NFL players are evaluated 4 quarters per game, 16 games per year so stop yer whinin.

[Duchess Jack]

When someone has a question they ask the question and this teacher says "can anyone answer the question?" If nobody can then the teacher will answer the question.

 

I don't see the quoted text as being a bad thing. Can it be over-done, sure - but just as writing something is a good way to remember it, I would imagine that talking about it could give a person more confidence with the subject at hand.

[tosberg34]

I am evaluated 5 times a quarter, 4 times a year. Simple math tells me that is 20 times a year. A quarter is 13 weeks long so that works out to .38461538461538..... times per week. I am not sure how many times you want someone in the class? What would be a good number? once a week, every day ?

 

like I have said before I have no knowledge of a teacher becoming a teacher to get rich, or in fact to make a lot of money. I make a decent wage, I don't complain about it but I certainly don't think I am over payed.

 

Much of this has to do with different regions of the country or even different school districts in states. The district I work in is one of the top schools in Wisconsin. If you are not doing your job you will be removed from it.

 

Wow. Who knew baggin' groceries involved so much evaluation. What are some of the evaluation criteria?

[gbpfan1231]

Now compare that to yearly reviews for most in the private sector? . . .

 

Despite overwhelming opposition to the op-ed, gbpfan continues his crusade against teachers . . .

Actually the opposite. I would like to see good teachers be rewarded compared to bad teachers.

 

Yukon made a good point though - I guess if good teachers don't mind if they are paid the same as other teachers and are not in it for the pay it really would not do much good.

[Ditkaless Wonders]

Perhaps had Fran Tarkenton had better teachers he may have been able to construct a more apt analogy.

 

That said our public education system is broken. I believe it is broken because of legislators and parents. Legislators, and to an extent courts, have stripped our teachers of authority. It is difficult to teach without authority. Additionally legislators have demanded that teachers expand (read water down) the cirriculum so that teachers now are responsible for basic socialization of overly entitled brats brought into the school without the basic skills to be even minimal members of society.

 

That brings us to parents. They fail to raise their kids. They fail to socialize them and teach them even the minimal standards of behavior. They then expect the schools to do their jobs. Parents, you have to work in close harmony with the schools. If you don't participate at the school and add value rather than constantly detracting you are not a good parent. The school day is not a vacation from parenting, it is an opportunity for parenting.

 

No teacher can be expected to excel under those conditions, and yet some do.

 

Still and all a system of tenure enforced by unions who wish to ignore market forces can only exacerbate the problem. Perhaps the Unions could instead decide to be guilds or professional organizations who could concentrate on advancing the profession rather than on protecting the incompetent simply because they joined the club.

Edited October 7, 2011 by Ditkaless Wonders

[rocknrobn26]

Wow. Who knew baggin' groceries involved so much evaluation. What are some of the evaluation criteria?

 

You are a chives bag!

Who'd a thunk that!??