Azazello1313 Posted November 3, 2011 Author Share Posted November 3, 2011 It's an opinion piece but it summarizes my view on this discussion: http://www.denverpost.com/opinion/ci_19167366 The bottom line for me has always been it's rarely what the degree is in, but what you take from the experience and how you choose to apply it. I am a strong advocate of a "liberal education". but I don't think it needs so many taxpayer subsidies. it's also been largely hijacked by political and ideological agendas. "critical thinking, careful reading, the ability to work through ambiguity and the flood of information that is now available at our fingertips, clear writing and persuasive speaking" are in far shorter supply than ever before on campuses across the country. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
delusions of grandeur Posted November 3, 2011 Share Posted November 3, 2011 (edited) It's an opinion piece but it summarizes my view on this discussion: http://www.denverpost.com/opinion/ci_19167366 The bottom line for me has always been it's rarely what the degree is in, but what you take from the experience and how you choose to apply it. Can't get that article to load, but I very much agree... A big part of getting your degree is showing that you can stick it out and work for what you want to achieve... The way things are set up nowadays, there are lots of different options in a good job market (key words) for people from any major who have the drive to succeed... For those who say that it's due to laziness or lack of direction that so many kids aren't getting into non-science and tech majors (perhpas that may be true for the ones who jsut aspire to be celebs and DJ's), but part of that is due to the fact that we've been shifting from a production-based to a service-based economy for quite some time, due to things like outsourcing, higher standards of living, etc... That's why I went out and got a Communications degree that would likely give me more good options in the future landscape of America, and it did for a while... Yes, it's a sad fact that now I might have been better off just getting a 2-year technical degree and not had to deal with a tough job market, but it's not like it's been immediately obvious over the last 10-20 years that you should go into the science fields where there wasn't that much indication there would be a shortage with higher demand... Maybe that's changing now, but the shift to a service-based economy with vast reductions in production has definitely been a factor in what majors people choose... Edited November 3, 2011 by delusions of granduer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
delusions of grandeur Posted November 3, 2011 Share Posted November 3, 2011 I am a strong advocate of a "liberal education". but I don't think it needs so many taxpayer subsidies. it's also been largely hijacked by political and ideological agendas. "critical thinking, careful reading, the ability to work through ambiguity and the flood of information that is now available at our fingertips, clear writing and persuasive speaking" are in far shorter supply than ever before on campuses across the country. I hope that's not the case, because I really got a lot out of my liberal arts education, and in particular the things you mentioned... My teachers were undoubtedly slanted to the left, but let their agendas out of it for the most part, and let you draw your own conclusions (which is what they should be training you to do)... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ursa Majoris Posted November 3, 2011 Share Posted November 3, 2011 "critical thinking, careful reading, the ability to work through ambiguity and the flood of information that is now available at our fingertips, clear writing and persuasive speaking" are in far shorter supply than ever before on campuses across the country. And on FF message boards. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeeR Posted November 3, 2011 Share Posted November 3, 2011 (edited) It's an opinion piece In fact it's so opinionated it's ridiculous IMO, sorry. It makes inaccurate assumptions and makes silly extreme conclusions and is rooted in fluffy idealism which doesn't hold up under scrutiny. Sorry I just thought it was poor piece. And what your degree in makes a huge diff. It might be nice if that didn't matter, but the cold reality is it does and now more than ever (my impression anyway). Edited November 3, 2011 by BeeR Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Country Posted November 3, 2011 Share Posted November 3, 2011 I never understood people who simply went to school to go to school.So many of my friends from high school went to University with no direction, no purpose and no end-game desire that their future degree would help them achieve. It sounds like I am soapboxing because I come from the so-called STEM subjects, but from a logical standpoint, the point remains. If you don't have any interest in Sociology, Anthropology, Psychology etc. and nothing you plan on doing with the rest of your life has anything to do with those subjects, why are you wasting an ever-increasing amount of money to take those subjects? For many, it is because they are given a choice by mom and dad, either go to school and we'll continue to fund you, or go find a job and start paying rent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeeR Posted November 3, 2011 Share Posted November 3, 2011 Yep. So they go and take the easiest classes possible while partying their asses off. Which ah never happend to me of course. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deathpig Posted November 3, 2011 Share Posted November 3, 2011 For those who say that it's due to laziness or lack of direction that so many kids aren't getting into non-science and tech majors (perhpas that may be true for the ones who jsut aspire to be celebs and DJ's), but part of that is due to the fact that we've been shifting from a production-based to a service-based economy for quite some time, due to things like outsourcing, higher standards of living, etc... My immediate thought was that it had more to do with role-models and what people aspire to be. If everyone was concerned with how much money you make out of college, there'd be a far more narrow distribution of degrees at graduation. Though I suppose it's also fair to consider that some people might think 'Any degree = high paying job' and if certain degrees are considered easier to get, then they choose the path of least resistance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WashingtonD Posted November 3, 2011 Share Posted November 3, 2011 (edited) My view is simply this - when times are tough, people almost always gravitate to the concrete. It's human nature. It's true of people's perceptions of higher education as well. Things are difficult, jobs are hard to come by, so gravitate toward what can be, with hard work, the right connections and relationship building, be a very clear career path with the STEM type degrees. That doesn't make it right. It just makes it human nature. Part of the problem is that we haven't done a good job articulating the different options available to people that pursue liberal arts degrees with the same level of rigor. It's an extremely narrow data set, but the management team of the consulting company I'm a part of has a theater major, a communications major, a poli/sci and english major, a math major (actuarial) and our CEO is a studio arts major. Not one of us has ever pursued directly a job that would be the "classical" path from those majors. Broadly we'd be defined as business strategy consultants, and 10/10 college students would say they would need a degree in business to be successful in that arena, and they'd be completely incorrect. My truth is that we need a broad set of specialists in different areas of expertise and generalists to help weave those threads together into tapestries of opportunity if we are going to continue to be successful as a country and our education system is going to re-find it's way. I always react with a bit of fear when I see one side or the other too emphasized (from an educational focus standpoint) as that, in my opinion, limits growth to one possible arena, stacks the chips to firmly on one bet than I believe to be sound. The op ed piece I linked to is likewise guilty of this to some degree, with an over emphasis on the liberal arts side of the house, and I agree that's a flaw. Edited November 3, 2011 by WashingtonD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimmy Neutron Posted November 4, 2011 Share Posted November 4, 2011 Student loan payments are next to nothing. I know most college graduates don't want to wait tables or shovel taco, but you gotta do what you gotta do. I worked midnights in a concrete plant to pay for school. How much are these poor graduates paying for their cell phone bills every month? We have gone soft and are paying the price...... Exactly. I paid my way through school working full time+ - taking as many as 23 hours a semester. I hear kids whining today about less than 20 hours of work and 14 credit hours. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wiegie Posted November 4, 2011 Share Posted November 4, 2011 (edited) While I, too, worked my own way through college, I don't think some of you know what has happened to tuition rates in the last few years. As state funding to universities have diminished, tuition has gone up to fill the gap. A student would be very hard pressed even working 40 hours a week at $10/hour to make enough to pay for tuition, fees, and (spartan) living expenses at even a basic state school. (This does not mean that a lot of students aren't lazy, whiney, self-absorbed biatches, because many of them are--but it is very hard to work yourself through college today on your own.) Edited November 4, 2011 by wiegie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CowboyGal2011 Posted November 4, 2011 Share Posted November 4, 2011 While I, too, worked my own way through college, I don't think some of you know what has happened to tuition rates in the last few years. As state funding to universities have diminished, tuition has gone up to fill the gap. The sitting president of a private nonprofit college received an average of $475,403, in pay, bonuses, and additional benefits according to a U.S. News analysis of 2008 compensation data amassed by the Chronicle of Higher Education. Twenty of the 362 sitting college presidents received more than $1 million in compensation and two cracked the $2 million threshold. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WaterMan Posted November 4, 2011 Share Posted November 4, 2011 While I, too, worked my own way through college, I don't think some of you know what has happened to tuition rates in the last few years. As state funding to universities have diminished, tuition has gone up to fill the gap. A student would be very hard pressed even working 40 hours a week at $10/hour to make enough to pay for tuition, fees, and (spartan) living expenses at even a basic state school. (This does not mean that a lot of students aren't lazy, whiney, self-absorbed biatches, because many of them are--but it is very hard to work yourself through college today on your own.) You don't understand wiegie. We all expect college students to be able to find more than 24 hours in a day. Only then can they find enough money to pay for college. With how generously businesses pay college students, there is no excuse. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ursa Majoris Posted November 4, 2011 Share Posted November 4, 2011 While I, too, worked my own way through college, I don't think some of you know what has happened to tuition rates in the last few years. As state funding to universities have diminished, tuition has gone up to fill the gap. A student would be very hard pressed even working 40 hours a week at $10/hour to make enough to pay for tuition, fees, and (spartan) living expenses at even a basic state school. (This does not mean that a lot of students aren't lazy, whiney, self-absorbed biatches, because many of them are--but it is very hard to work yourself through college today on your own.) At one point in her undergrad career, my daughter had four part-time jobs simultaneously. The more usual number was three but never less than two. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yukon Cornelius Posted November 4, 2011 Share Posted November 4, 2011 A student would be very hard pressed even working 40 hours a week at $10/hour to make enough to pay for tuition, fees, and (spartan) living expenses at even a basic state school. (This does not mean that a lot of students aren't lazy, whiney, self-absorbed biatches, because many of them are--but it is very hard to work yourself through college today on your own.) yup Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azazello1313 Posted November 4, 2011 Author Share Posted November 4, 2011 As state funding to universities have diminished, tuition has gone up to fill the gap. this may be true in particular instances in the last couple years, but as an explanation for the trend in education costs far outpacing inflation for the last many decades it is not even a blip on the radar. let me ask you this....has out of state tuition gone up as well? what about tuition at private universities that receive no state funding? if anything, government funding (ironically, in the name of making college more affordable) has been inflating a massive tuition bubble, not the other way around. state governments facing other pressure saying "there is just no way we can afford this schit anymore" might just be the first sign of the bubble popping. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wiegie Posted November 4, 2011 Share Posted November 4, 2011 if anything, government funding (ironically, in the name of making college more affordable) has been inflating a massive tuition bubble, not the other way around. http://www.clasp.org/admin/site/documents/...her-Tuition.pdf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azazello1313 Posted November 4, 2011 Author Share Posted November 4, 2011 http://www.clasp.org/admin/site/documents/...her-Tuition.pdf federal funding for higher ed since 1962 pell grants are a small slice of the pie. federal loan subsidies and state funding are the bigger pieces. and I guess you'll have to remind me how the laws of supply and demand work, but it kinda seems like if you pump our hundreds of billions in subsidies to purchase one particular thing, that generates significant upward pressure on the price of that thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bushwacked Posted November 4, 2011 Share Posted November 4, 2011 federal funding for higher ed since 1962 pell grants are a small slice of the pie. federal loan subsidies and state funding are the bigger pieces. A National Center for Education Statistics study found no relationship between federal grants, state grants, or student loans and changes in tuition in the public or private not-for-profit sectors. Notably, this study employed a sophisticated analysis covering nearly the same time period as that in the study cited by Rep. Ryan I'm sure you got a better handle on it though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clubfoothead Posted November 5, 2011 Share Posted November 5, 2011 College isn't oversold, it is overpriced. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chavez Posted November 5, 2011 Share Posted November 5, 2011 And still no jobs in my engineering field. I hear Germany has an engineer shortage. Sprechen sie deutsche? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big John Posted November 5, 2011 Share Posted November 5, 2011 I hear Germany has an engineer shortage. Sprechen sie deutsche? Had some in high school. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clubfoothead Posted November 5, 2011 Share Posted November 5, 2011 I hear Germany has an engineer shortage. Sprechen sie deutsche? Williston NoDak is technically closer but may not feel it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chavez Posted November 5, 2011 Share Posted November 5, 2011 Williston NoDak is technically closer but may not feel it. Let's be fair and do a compare/contrast: Germany - Munich, Berlin, Bonn, the Alps, castles, Oktoberfest, Amsterdam and Paris are mere hours away, excellent state-provided health care, retirement, etc, fantastic public transit N Dakota - flat with snow. If you get antsy you can drive to Minneapolis Hurm. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grits and Shins Posted November 5, 2011 Share Posted November 5, 2011 My daughter is in college right now ... majoring in math and Spanish My son will be in college in two years and is oscillating between majoring in Math or Engineering ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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