Fracking

[detlef]

So, the NC GOP is trying to push this through in a big way, but assures everyone that they're going to "proceed with caution".

 

What, exactly, does that mean? It would seem to me that it's either safe or it's not and that, given that there are already places doing it, couldn't we just look at those places and decide whether or not people's tap water is still catching on fire and things like that? Wouldn't "proceed with caution" mean, don't proceed until you know it's safe? And, if that's the case, then what is the point of paving the way in states that currently aren't doing it?

 

How, exactly, does one drill into the ground, force a cocktail of hazardous chemicals and water under really high pressure "cautiously"?

 

The "funny" thing about it for me is that it just sounds like a really bad idea. So, when bad things happen, you can't exactly act like you never saw it coming. Why wouldn't bad things resulting from this practice be a very distinct possibility?

Edited April 18, 2012 by detlef

[godtomsatan]

Is this a Battlestar Galactica thread?

[Chargerz]

Is this a Battlestar Galactica thread?

 

Yeah, what the frack?

[Tford]

Fracking has been a completion method for oil and gas wells in the area where I live for over 60 years. Never once has the water table been threatened.

 

I design fracture treatments (among other things) for a living and provided that you take the proper precautions to ensure that your fracture goes where it is intended, it is perfectly safe method to complete otherwise uncompleteable wells.

 

I wrote this in another thread. Hopefully it helps;

 

There are a lot of misconceptions about fracturing techniques. I frac for a living as a production engineer for an oil and gas company in Canada. Fracturing techniques are the future of energy production in North America but I agree that we need to make sure we get a handle of it before we cause more problems than we solve.

 

1) Fracturing leaves a void by cracking the formation and leads to geological instability.

 

This is incorrect. The formations are indeed forced open by the pressure of fluid entering the zone. But if we take the pressure off of the formation, the formation closes off. There is plenty of empirical evidence to support this in many engineering papers. To hold the formation open and allow oil and gas to flow into the well more readily, we actually inject sand in with the fluid to both "prop" open the fractures we create and provide a high permeability channel for the production to flow through. There is no void, no open fracture that causes instability. In fact, the formation is in many ways, more stable than it was before fracturing.

 

2) Fracturing messes with water tables

 

This is true and false. Wells are drilled by cutting a hole with a drill bit and drill mud to open the hole open. Steel pipe (called casing) is then inserted into the well to provide a strong conduit in which to execute production well operations. To hold the casing in place, cement is pumped down the casing and forced between the hole and the casing (called the annulus). In addition to holding the casing in place, the cement in the annulus also isolates each formation that the well was drilled through, from the others. This includes the fresh water table. Provided that cementing is done correctly and proper cement bond is achieved, fracturing will not affect the water table because the cement will do its job and isolate the zones from each other. Fracturing typically does not pass through boundary shale layers (these are different from gas and oil bearing shales) so the rock also holds the fracture to the zone is was intended to go.

 

Unfortunately, cementing is also expensive and time-consuming to many unscrupulous producers and it may not be done properly. If cement bond (or casing integrity) is not achieved, you cannot control where your fracture goes. This is where you see issues in the water table. I am of the opinion that a proper cement bond log should be produced to a regulatory body before any fracturing takes place. It is the policy of my company and many others that this is done even though it is not mandatory currently.

 

 

I have a strong background in fracturing and I'd be willing to answer any questions you guys have about it. It's not the great evil many make it out to be. As with most things, provided it is done according to design, it is quite safe.

 

 

 

The government needs to ensure that the proper steps are taken to ensure the safety of the water table from fracture treatments through the use of cement bond logging to prove inability of the fracture to travel up the wellbore behind the casing. Unfortunately, regulation is typically slow to catch up to business and that's why the shady producers can cause a lot of problems.

[detlef]

Is this a Battlestar Galactica thread?

 

I would so much rather it be about that than forcing a toxic cocktail into the ground and releasing gas into the water table.

[Tford]

Also, a little bit of fracking humor.

 

 

[detlef]

Fracking has been a completion method for oil and gas wells in the area where I live for over 60 years. Never once has the water table been threatened.

 

I design fracture treatments (among other things) for a living and provided that you take the proper precautions to ensure that your fracture goes where it is intended, it is perfectly safe method to complete otherwise uncompleteable wells.

 

I wrote this in another thread. Hopefully it helps;

 

 

 

 

The government needs to ensure that the proper steps are taken to ensure the safety of the water table from fracture treatments through the use of cement bond logging to prove inability of the fracture to travel up the wellbore behind the casing. Unfortunately, regulation is typically slow to catch up to business and that's why the shady producers can cause a lot of problems.

 

Thanks for the info. Unfortunately, the last part of your post does freak me out a bit.

[Scooby's Hubby]

Fracking has been a completion method for oil and gas wells in the area where I live for over 60 years. Never once has the water table been threatened.

 

I design fracture treatments (among other things) for a living and provided that you take the proper precautions to ensure that your fracture goes where it is intended, it is perfectly safe method to complete otherwise uncompleteable wells.

 

I wrote this in another thread. Hopefully it helps;

 

 

 

 

The government needs to ensure that the proper steps are taken to ensure the safety of the water table from fracture treatments through the use of cement bond logging to prove inability of the fracture to travel up the wellbore behind the casing. Unfortunately, regulation is typically slow to catch up to business and that's why the shady producers can cause a lot of problems.

 

 

+1 The Texas Railroad Commission does a fine job of protecting fresh water zones. Other states should use them as an example and model.

[matt770]

During the Masters, Exxon ran a commercial where their CEO reassured me that fracking is safe and Exxon is really, really careful when they do it. That's good enough for me!

[gilthorp]

There is a pretty amazing documentary about this that I saw on HBO a few years ago. It may be safe, and they may say it's safe...and TFord may also be confident about its safety, but some of the shiat I saw in this documentary said otherwise. Gasland

 

www.gaslandthemovie.com

[SEC=UGA]

Any one checked out how the batteries are made for hybrid cars?

[bushwacked]

There is a pretty amazing documentary about this that I saw on HBO a few years ago. It may be safe, and they may say it's safe...and TFord may also be confident about its safety, but some of the shiat I saw in this documentary said otherwise. Gasland

 

www.gaslandthemovie.com

 

 

I have worked on a site in Wyoming where they they fracked coal bed deposits, without ever getting the the coal bed to burn for sustained periods, without resulting in methane production, and they most definitely contaminated groundwater. Granted this particular site was one of many poster childs of the Dept of Env. Quality of that particular time being strong armed by a vigilante radical Governor who was subsequently voted out by the good people of Wyoming.

 

Fracking disrupts the deeper subsurface (where the needed deposits reside), however it makes potential cleanup difficult and mitigating contamination in deep aquifers difficult, if not a lost cause.

 

The government needs to ensure that the proper steps are taken to ensure the safety of the water table from fracture treatments through the use of cement bond logging to prove inability of the fracture to travel up the wellbore behind the casing. Unfortunately, regulation is typically slow to catch up to business and that's why the shady producers can cause a lot of problems.

 

 

Bingo, unfortunately in today's political environment, any pragmatic regulation will initially and effectively be bought and sold as unnecessary big brother Socialism.

 

Any one checked out how the batteries are made for hybrid cars?

 

 

In the Ayn Rand land of libertarian utopia we force out (oops I mean buy out) a community and leave them with this after the ore isn't worth much:

 

http://watercenter.m..._fieldtrip3.JPG

Edited April 19, 2012 by bushwacked

[Tford]

I've always been a proponent of having a minimum depth of fracturing. The overburden is your protection when it comes to fracturing and I will say that the overwhelming majority of fractures executed in the area where I live are around 1500-2000 meters (or about 5000-6000 feet), well under any water table. That being said, sometimes producers look to CBM, shallow gas/oil etc. for their production. These zones are very close to local water tables. I personally am against that, too much risk. Very easy for something to go wrong, especially when you can't see the rocks that you are assuming will be the barrier between the local water table and your chemical soup of frac proppant.

 

There is a pretty amazing documentary about this that I saw on HBO a few years ago. It may be safe, and they may say it's safe...and TFord may also be confident about its safety, but some of the shiat I saw in this documentary said otherwise. Gasland

 

www.gaslandthemovie.com

 

 

If you have no cement or you fracture shallow enough, I can guarantee that you will see water contamination. And some of the chemicals and additives that are uses in fracture treatments are nasty, nasty stuff.

 

The thing is that any producer has all of the means necessary to prevent any issues with fracture treatments. The problem is whether the producer cares enough to get the information they need and whether they are ethical enough to heed any warnings that information may present. Without regulation of what can and cannot be done as far as wellbore treatments, that is all that is preventing catastrophies like the ones cited on that movie.

Edited April 19, 2012 by Tford

[bushwacked]

I've always been a proponent of having a minimum depth of fracturing. The overburden is your protection when it comes to fracturing and I will say that the overwhelming majority of fractures executed in the area where I live are around 1500-2000 meters (or about 5000-6000 feet), well under any water table.

 

 

This Canadian knows what he speaks of. And to the SECs comment, I don't think a lot of exploratory firms are fracking to get minerals a mile deep into the earth.

[Swashbucklers]

There was a story on Channel One news (a 10-12 minute news show for middle school and high school students) that showed a family that was near a fracking site that was able to light there tap water on fire. Doesn't seem very safe if ask me! I am sure it boils down to regulations and the like but still, lighting water on fire?

[matt770]

There was a story on Channel One news (a 10-12 minute news show for middle school and high school students) that showed a family that was near a fracking site that was able to light there tap water on fire. Doesn't seem very safe if ask me! I am sure it boils down to regulations and the like but still, lighting water on fire?

 

It's always a good idea to set your water on fire before you drink it, to burn off all the impurities.

[detlef]

There was a story on Channel One news (a 10-12 minute news show for middle school and high school students) that showed a family that was near a fracking site that was able to light there tap water on fire. Doesn't seem very safe if ask me! I am sure it boils down to regulations and the like but still, lighting water on fire?

 

In fairness, what I think TFord is trying to say is that, sure that can happen, but only if idiots are allowed to do it in a reckless manner. It is certainly a pretty impressive image to see someone light their tap water on fire and, honestly, basically the reason why I'm freaked out about it. Honestly, I would hope that whomever is responsible for having done that get sued to high hell.

 

However, if what he says is true, and that, provided you dig deep enough it can be done safely. If there's actually data that supports that it's not just a matter of time but that it is truly safe, then it might simply be a matter of regulating it enough to make sure people are doing it in the manner he speaks of.

[Clubfoothead]

If you like your drinking water threatened and earthquakes where they've never been before, noise pollution and torn up streets from the trucks then fracking is just what you are looking for.

[cliaz]

Det - if anything, we have mineral rights so if they do one of those horizontal drills and find stuff under your property, you get paid. Of course, what are the odds of some company doing test wells in the middle of Durham or Holly Springs.

 

Regardless of how it is presented, I am not a fan of fracking because I do not think it is safe. One of the big reasons has to do with what TFord said - min. depth for fracking. And i know they say fracking doesn't influence or cause earthquakes but there is a lot of coincidental earthquakes in areas where fracking is going on.

[detlef]

Believe me, I'm not saying we should do it. Rather, recognizing the points TFord made. Reading his post was enough to make me listen, but not enough to say, "Go ahead".

[Ursa Majoris]

Regulation is a simple enough answer. The problem with regulation is that it doesn't have real penalties. Example - earlier this week, a bank here in Minny was fined $25,000 for an offense during which they made $5,000,000. Not much of a deterrent, huh? Likewise, all the investment banks at the root of the recent Great Recession have settled lawsuits for far less than the losses they caused, never mind the fact that they pass those costs on to us anyway.

 

So, I propose that regulations have real penalties pre-attached. If a fracking company pollutes water, then it's CEO, other C executives and it's board all go to prison for a minimum of 10 years, plus their entire assets are stripped and used for cleanup. No settlements, no plea bargaining, just a swift trial and incarceration (if found guilty). This would encourage a closer focus on safety and caution.

[The Irish Doggy]

Regulation is a simple enough answer. The problem with regulation is that it doesn't have real penalties. Example - earlier this week, a bank here in Minny was fined $25,000 for an offense during which they made $5,000,000. Not much of a deterrent, huh? Likewise, all the investment banks at the root of the recent Great Recession have settled lawsuits for far less than the losses they caused, never mind the fact that they pass those costs on to us anyway.

 

So, I propose that regulations have real penalties pre-attached. If a fracking company pollutes water, then it's CEO, other C executives and it's board all go to prison for a minimum of 10 years, plus their entire assets are stripped and used for cleanup. No settlements, no plea bargaining, just a swift trial and incarceration (if found guilty). This would encourage a closer focus on safety and caution.

 

 

I tend to agree. If it can be done wrong, it will be. And it will be some poor group of locals with contaminated water and worthless land who get stuck holding the bag. Put management's arse on the line, and we'll see how safe everyone thinks that technology is.

Edited April 19, 2012 by The Irish Doggy

[Scooby's Hubby]

You do know the Gasland movie where he lights the water had nothing to do with fracking and everyting to do with methane being in the tapwater since 1936, well before (over 1/2 a century) fracking ever took place. Methane gas from coal beds are what you see contaminating fresh water. I have never heard of any gas frack that has ever contaminated water, in Texas. Now I have heard of poor cement jobs and pulled casing from old wells that were drilled back in the 30's contaminate water, but not the actual frack job. And the earthquake theory is a bunch of bologne, too. All these tree huggers have created their own holy war and now they target fracking. You won't find one issue of this in Texas where there have been hundreds of thousands of wells fractured.

 

Fracking takes place beneath impermiable rock, meaning gas will not travel through that rock. As long as you have a regulatory authority checking permits before they are granted then you should have no problem protecting any aquifers.

Edited April 19, 2012 by Scooby's Hubby

[bpwallace49]

You do know the Gasland movie where he lights the water had nothing to do with fracking and everyting to do with methane being in the tapwater since 1936, well before (over 1/2 a century) fracking ever took place. Methane gas from coal beds are what you see contaminating fresh water. I have never heard of any gas frack that has ever contaminated water, in Texas. Now I have heard of poor cement jobs and pulled casing from old wells that were drilled back in the 30's contaminate water, but not the actual frack job. And the earthquake theory is a bunch of bologne, too. All these tree huggers have created their own holy war and now they target fracking. You won't find one issue of this in Texas where there have been hundreds of thousands of wells fractured.

 

Fracking takes place beneath impermiable rock, meaning gas will not travel through that rock. As long as you have a regulatory authority checking permits before they are granted then you should have no problem protecting any aquifers.

 

 

Full disclosure . . . . arent you financially involved in fracking?

[matt770]

I fracked when I had gas once, never fracked that one again, she fracking left my apartment all pissed off. Damn Mexican food.