BS Miscreant Posted January 2, 2005 Share Posted January 2, 2005 In '84 the 2nd best total, behind Marino obviously, for TD passes was 28. This year there will be 3 QBs, other than Manning, that will throw for at least 30 TDs and 1 who may reach or exceed 40. That seems to be a pretty strong indication that the way the game is played has changed. 639324[/snapback] I threw this back up because it seemed to get missed originally. Interesting stat I found: Dolphins rushing yardage in 1984: 1,918 total yards. Colts rushing yardage in 2004: 1,777 total yards. 639448[/snapback] Yes. Great stats. In fact, contrary to what I'm hearing a lot around here, Miami had a great offense all around. They platooned their backs and didn't have the prototype stud RB but they did it very successfully. However, you left out what I believe is the most telling stat to go along with your stat. Miami scored 18 rushing TDs compared to Indy's 10. What does this tell us in conjunction with your rushing yds stats? Marino was in a much more balanced offense thus taking away many of his opportunities to score. Manning whether by design or not is playing in a much more pass heavy offense. None of this cheapens what he has accomplished but if you're gonna argue then there it is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Swerski Posted January 2, 2005 Share Posted January 2, 2005 I'm really sick of that argument. If you think Brady is on a less talented football team, you are an idiot. 639366[/snapback] Yes, WaterMan certainly is. If Manning had the D the Pats have, he may not have broken the record but, he would have gone to the show. Win or lose there I don't know but as far as SB teams, you need a D and the Pats certainly have one of the best. 639432[/snapback] Absolutely correct. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaptainHook Posted January 2, 2005 Author Share Posted January 2, 2005 (edited) I add up 1818 yards rushing for the Colts this year...........639485[/snapback] oops! Thanks phenom. You are correct. Edited January 2, 2005 by CaptainHook Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaptainHook Posted January 2, 2005 Author Share Posted January 2, 2005 (edited) Marino was in a much more balanced offense thus taking away many of his opportunities to score. Manning whether by design or not is playing in a much more pass heavy offense. 639488[/snapback] If the rushing yardage is that close (within 100 yards going into today), then I would say they are in an equally balanced rush/pass offense. The fact that the Dolphins scored more TD's rushing does not mean they ran a lot more. In 1984 the Dolphins ran the ball 484 times using 9 rushers. The Dolphins passed the ball 570 times with two different QB's. With a week to play in 2004, the Colts have rushed 412 times with 7 different rushers. The Colts have passed the ball 499 times with two different QB's. So far the Colts have passed the ball 81 times fewer than the Dolphins did. They have run 68 fewer times. The Colts seem just as balanced to me. The difference is that the Dolphins made more of their opportunities rushing by scoring more TD's. When the season ends, there won't be much of a difference. Edited January 3, 2005 by CaptainHook Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BS Miscreant Posted January 2, 2005 Share Posted January 2, 2005 The difference is that the Dolphins made more of their opportunities rushing by scoring more TD's. When the season ends, there won't be much of a difference. 639538[/snapback] The first sentence was my point, exactly. If Marino throws more when close to the endzone, instead of actually utilizing the running game, he throws for more TDs. I'm sure you recall that a big problem people had with Manning this year was that he was throwing in what should be obvious running situations close to the goalline. Could just be strategy but it happened nonetheless. "When the season ends, there won't be much difference"? Even if the Colts rush for 3 TDs in their last game there will still be a fairly significant difference in production. 18 vs 13 would be nearly a 30% difference. If it remains what it is you're looking at a 55% difference in rushing TD production. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaptainHook Posted January 3, 2005 Author Share Posted January 3, 2005 (edited) Well with that loss to the Broncos here are the Colts final rushing and passing stats: In 1984 the Dolphins ran the ball 484 times for 1,918 yards. 18 TD In 2004 the Colts ran the ball 427 times for 1,863 yards. 10 TD In 1984 the Dolphins threw the ball 572 times for 5,146 yards. 49 TD In 2004 the Colts threw the ball 526 times for 4,726 yards. 51 TD So, overall, the Colts ran the ball 57 fewer times than the Dolphins did. They also passed the ball 66 fewer times than the Dolphins did. I would have to say I disagree that the either team was more "balanced" than the other. I also don't think that one team had a better ground game than the other. The Dolphins got more TD's out of their running game. As you can see, the argument that Marino did it without a running game, is bogus. Marino was in a much more balanced offense thus taking away many of his opportunities to score.639488[/snapback] How does scoring 8 more rushing TD's mean that they ran more? Or that they were more balanced? The numbers simply don't show that. The Colts run-to-pass ratio of 427/526 on par with the Dolphins 484/572. Manning whether by design or not is playing in a much more pass heavy offense. 639488[/snapback] Once again the numbers don't show that. Marino had more attempts than Manning did, but the ratio of run to pass are quite similiar. Edited January 3, 2005 by CaptainHook Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I Like Soup Posted January 3, 2005 Share Posted January 3, 2005 I'd also like to add that Marino set the record in his first full year as an NFL quarterback. He started 9 games in his rookie season of '83. As fantasy geeks, I think we can all agree that a second year QB achieving this feat is impressive. Other than that, I'd say Manning's season was similar to Marino's with the exception that Manning didn't play his last game; therefore keeping the record "close". No better person to beat Marino's record than Manning. Congrats to Peyton! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BS Miscreant Posted January 3, 2005 Share Posted January 3, 2005 How does scoring 8 more rushing TD's mean that they ran more? Or that they were more balanced? 639965[/snapback] I was simply pointing out the scoring balance, not that they were more balanced overall. A difference of 8 TDs may not seem like much but when you go from 10 to 18 you are looking at a 45% increase in TD production. 45% is pretty significant. This is especially true when you compare it to the difference between the two teams' passing TDs, which is 4%. Simple math really... 18-10=8 51-49=2 8-2=6 That's six more times that Marino gave way to the running game. Contrary to popular opinion, it's the strength of Miami's running game not it's weakness that may very well have cost him additional TD passes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaptainHook Posted January 3, 2005 Author Share Posted January 3, 2005 Just because they scored more rushing TD's DOES NOT mean they ran the ball more! It just simply means they happened to score on 8 more running plays than the Colts did. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BS Miscreant Posted January 3, 2005 Share Posted January 3, 2005 Okay. Let's put the rushing TD production discussion to rest for a bit. I don't think anyone ever addressed this point. In '84 the 2nd best total, behind Marino obviously, for TD passes was 28. This year there will be 3 QBs, other than Manning, that will throw for at least 30 TDs and 1 who may reach or exceed 40. That seems to be a pretty strong indication that the way the game is played has changed. 639324[/snapback] Isn't this fun? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaptainHook Posted January 3, 2005 Author Share Posted January 3, 2005 Or that there are better QB's now than in '84. The best QB's were just getting started that year, Elway, Kelly, O'Brien, etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BS Miscreant Posted January 3, 2005 Share Posted January 3, 2005 Or that there are better QB's now than in '84. The best QB's were just getting started that year, Elway, Kelly, O'Brien, etc. 640110[/snapback] So you do think this is fun. Oh Captain, my captain... you are a real trooper. I have to go to bed now. Gotta be up in 5 hours. But I'll be back. I promise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jrick35 Posted January 3, 2005 Share Posted January 3, 2005 Of course the game is played differently now than in 1984. That's always the argument made when a record goes so long before being broken. But you know what? In 1984 when Dan through his amazing 48 TD's the game was played a little differently than it was when old George Blanda through his 36 TD's. And don't even try to argue the balance of the 2 teams. It's hard to argue a teams balance when its QB throws for over 4500 yds & 49 TD's in what is basically the eqivalent of a 14 game season while also making sure that its top 3 WR's each caught 10 TD's plus pass 1000 yds receiving. The team also made sure that Edge got 9 Td's plus over 330 carries, including 29 inside the 10 yard line alone. And the team made sure that Edge got 1550 yds rushing. While he was at it the team got at least 5 TD's to 2 different TE's this year as well. The team did all of this while having Manning throw 69 less passes than Marino threw to get to 48 TD's in 1984. The biggest difference in the Rushing TD's was Edge's inability to score from inside the 10. This year the Colts attempted 26 FG's compared to only 19 for Miami in 1984. I couldn't find a breakdown of the yardage for Miami's kicks in 1984 but for the Colts this year, 17 of their 26 FG's were kicked from 39 yds or closer which means the ball was on no worse than the 21 yd line for those 17 kicks. It has been well documented on this forum all year that Manning has robbed Edge of short yardage TD's with all of his short TD passes so we know those 17 short FG's weren't from Manning NOT throwing TD's from inside the 20 so they must have been mostly from Edge not being able to run inside the 20. And like I said Edge had 29 carries inside the 10 which doesn't include his carries from 11 - 20 yds out. So in the redzone he had quite a few more than 29 carries. But he just didn't do much with them. Now Edge is obviously a great runner but the one thing that the Colts Offense is lacking when compared to the 1984 Dolphins was a Pete Johnson type RB. Pete was a HOSS pure and simple. That's why he had 9 TD's and only a 2.3 yd average. He got the short yardage TD's/ If Edge were as big a Hoss as Pete then the Colts would have had more Rushing TD's this year because the short yardage carries were they, they just weren't capitalized on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WaterMan Posted January 3, 2005 Share Posted January 3, 2005 If Manning had the D the Pats have, he may not have broken the record but, he would have gone to the show. Win or lose there I don't know but as far as SB teams, you need a D and the Pats certainly have one of the best. 639432[/snapback] No salary cap would allow that I bet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WaterMan Posted January 3, 2005 Share Posted January 3, 2005 The NFL set a record in TDs, 100 yard games, and 300 yard passing games. Thanks to the Illegal Contact issue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caveman_Nick Posted January 3, 2005 Share Posted January 3, 2005 (edited) Manning Marino Comp./Att. 335-495 362-564 Yards 4,550 5,084 TD 49 48 Int. 10 17 almost 70 fewer pass attemts, 27 fewer completions, 7 fewer INTs, and 1 more TD. Edge, Manning. Edited January 3, 2005 by Caveman_Nick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skins Posted January 3, 2005 Share Posted January 3, 2005 Manning MarinoComp./Att. 335-495 362-564Yards 4,550 5,084TD 49 48Int. 10 17 almost 70 fewer pass attemts, 27 fewer completions, 7 fewer INTs, and 1 more TD. Edge, Manning. 640202[/snapback] Case closed. Thanks, Nick. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BS Miscreant Posted January 4, 2005 Share Posted January 4, 2005 Like I stated in my first post in this thread... I don't have any real stake in this conversation but I can't stand to sit idly by and just watch a good argument happen. So just to play devil's advocate... 639324[/snapback] Nice job, fellas. You have more passion for this than I do but I thoroughly enjoyed it. Good stuff. None of this cheapens what he has accomplished... 639488[/snapback] Cheers! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigrocks Posted January 4, 2005 Share Posted January 4, 2005 Its purely subjective, but IMHO Manning is a much better student of the game.... he is pretty *** close to a coach in the huddle. Marino was the much better pure passer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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