Who starts ahead of Ben in the NFL right now?

[Donutrun Jellies]

God was Big Ben awful last week!

Ugly Tuna

 

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Well, all the pundits are saying how incredible Vick was ... Sooo, last week, Ben had one more turnover than Vick (2 vs 1), one less TD pass (1 vs 2), and more total yards running/passing combined (211 to 201)... Vick gets worshipped (thank you NFL hype machine) and Ben was "awful"???????? It's an overreaction you wouldn't be hearing if Ben wasn't a rookie -- he'd just have had an off game.

 

Ben wasn't at his best, for sure, but he didn't lose.

 

I say even with last week's performance, given his year, he'd still replace the starter for at least 20 NFL teams on his play right this minute alone, forget his future value. Say Roeth was mysteriously traded -- which NFL team could he land on where he wouldn't be their number one starter to open the season next year (assuming he knew the offense in a comparative manner to how he knows the Steelers offense at this point, obviously)???

 

I'll give you:

1 NE with Brady

2 Indy with Manning

3 Philly with McNabb

4 GB with Favre

5 Minny with Culpepper

6 Atl with Vick

 

I might give you (though I don't think I will):

7 Green with KC?

8 Leftwich with the Jags?? Hmmmmm.

9 STL with Bulger???? Hmmmmmm.

 

The rook is the real deal.

[jgcoach]

I think you could add SD and Denver.

[darin3]

I think you could add SD and Denver.

 

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What? OK, so I'll give you Brees. Maybe. But Plummer? Cough. Are you hanging out with Ricky Williams?

[Donutrun Jellies]

What?  OK, so I'll give you Brees.  Maybe.  But Plummer?  Cough.  Are you hanging out with Ricky Williams? 

 

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Thanks for handling that ... Plummer over Roeth? Bah!! Enjoy that!

[I Like Soup]

Well, all the pundits are saying how incredible Vick was ... Sooo, last week, Ben had one more turnover than Vick (2 vs 1), one less TD pass (1 vs 2), and more total yards running/passing combined (211 to 201)... Vick gets worshipped (thank you NFL hype machine) and Ben was "awful"????????  It's an overreaction you wouldn't be hearing if Ben wasn't a rookie -- he'd just have had an off game.

 

Ben wasn't at his best, for sure, but he didn't lose. 

 

I say even with last week's performance, given his year, he'd still replace the starter for at least 20 NFL teams on his play right this minute alone, forget his future value.  Say Roeth was mysteriously traded -- which NFL team could he land on where he wouldn't be their number one starter to open the season next year (assuming he knew the offense in a comparative manner to how he knows the Steelers offense at this point, obviously)???

 

I'll give you:

1 NE with Brady

2 Indy with Manning

3 Philly with McNabb

4 GB with Favre

5 Minny with Culpepper

6 Atl with Vick

 

I might give you (though I don't think I will):

7 Green with KC?

8 Leftwich with the Jags?? Hmmmmm.

9 STL with Bulger???? Hmmmmmm.

 

The rook is the real deal.

 

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Interesting question Donut. I disagree with you on McNabb, Favre, Culpepper and Vick. The reason being those QBs elevate the play of others around them while I don't think Big Ben does that at all. He plays within a system that minimizes the negative impact he can make. I give credit to Big Ben for not going out and losing games, but I think his rookie record is more of a testament to the Steelers' running game and dominant defense, not his ability to go out and dominate. He plays within the system and his limits at this time in his career.

 

I think Green is very underrated and is a very good quarterback. Leftwich and Bulger I would probably consider. My two cents.

[darin3]

Interesting question Donut.  I disagree with you on McNabb, Favre, Culpepper and Vick.  The reason being those QBs elevate the play of others around them while I don't think Big Ben does that at all.  He plays within a system that minimizes the negative impact he can make.  I give credit to Big Ben for not going out and losing games, but I think his rookie record is more of a testament to the Steelers' running game and dominant defense, not his ability to go out and dominate.  He plays within the system and his limits at this time in his career. 

 

I think Green is very underrated and is a very good quarterback.  Leftwich and Bulger I would probably consider.  My two cents.

 

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I think you missed Donut's point.

 

I believe he's saying that there are only a handful of QBs (McNabb, Favre, etc.) that Big Ben would NOT start over on a certain team.

 

Essentially he rated Roethlisberger (around) the 10th best NFL QB (not talking fantasy stats here).

 

Am I off base?

[Donutrun Jellies]

I think you missed Donut's point.

 

I believe he's saying that there are only a handful of QBs (McNabb, Favre, etc.) that Big Ben would NOT start over on a certain team.

 

Essentially he rated Roethlisberger (around) the 10th best NFL QB (not talking fantasy stats here).

 

Am I off base? 

 

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That's what I was trying to say. I think, after just one year, he starts ahead of at least 20 starting NFL QBs ... The guys I listed would start ahead of him -- Brees? Hard to tell as I can't figure out where he came up with his season this year, but he played great. Plummer? Bah! Give me the Rook.

 

I'm surprised there haven't been any calls for Pennington ahead of Rook? I wouldn't take Pennington over Roeth, but some folks reeeeally seem convinced he's the answer in New York.

[Vet]

He'd start on about half the teams in the league in my opinion,

 

He'd carry a clipboard in behind (in no particular order) Brady, Pennington, PManning, McNair, Carr, Brees, Green, Plummer, McNabb, Vick, Favre, Culpepper, Palmer, and Bulger.

 

He'd compete for the starting position with Hasselbeck, Green, Delhomme, Bledsoe, E.Manning, Leftwich.

 

He'd be an immediate starter in Cleveland, Oakland, New Orleans, Arizona, Washington, Dallas, Miami, San Francicso, Detroit, Chicago, Tampa Bay. Oh, and Pittsburgh.

[Donutrun Jellies]

He'd start on about half the teams in the league in my opinion,

 

He'd carry a clipboard in behind (in no particular order) Brady, Pennington, PManning, McNair, Carr, Brees, Green, Plummer, McNabb, Vick, Favre, Culpepper, Palmer,  and Bulger.

 

He'd compete for the starting position with Hasselbeck, Green, Delhomme, Bledsoe, E.Manning, Leftwich.

 

He'd be an immediate starter in Cleveland, Oakland, New Orleans, Arizona, Washington, Dallas, Miami, San Francicso, Detroit, Chicago, Tampa Bay.  Oh, and Pittsburgh.

 

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Carry a clipboard behind PALMER????? What do you see in Palmer that you don't see in Roeth?

[jgcoach]

He'd start on about half the teams in the league in my opinion,

 

He'd carry a clipboard in behind (in no particular order) Brady, Pennington, PManning, McNair, Carr, Brees, Green, Plummer, McNabb, Vick, Favre, Culpepper, Palmer,  and Bulger.

 

He'd compete for the starting position with Hasselbeck, Green, Delhomme, Bledsoe, E.Manning, Leftwich.

 

He'd be an immediate starter in Cleveland, Oakland, New Orleans, Arizona, Washington, Dallas, Miami, San Francicso, Detroit, Chicago, Tampa Bay.  Oh, and Pittsburgh.

 

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Agree 100%, what people aren't taking into account is the system Ben is in and the different systems and teams he'd be playing for. Do you think Ben or E.Manning would start for the Giants? Who do you think would win that battle? I really don't know the answer to that but, Manning would certainly be a different QB on a Pitt. team. Instead of looking at good situations to put him in try throwing behind the Giant line and see what he's got. My guess is the rookie mistakes would come out ten fold.

[darin3]

Agree 100%, what people aren't taking into account is the system Ben is in and the different systems and teams he'd be playing for. Do you think Ben or E.Manning would start for the Giants? Who do you think would win that battle? I really don't know the answer to that but, Manning would certainly be a different QB on a Pitt. team. Instead of looking at good situations to put him in try throwing behind the Giant line and see what he's got. My guess is the rookie mistakes would come out ten fold.

 

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Good point. Really.

 

Now that I think about it, it's really hard to say.

 

I don't, however, think it has anything to do with "the system". This is not the Denver rushing attack we're talking about; it's the Pittsburgh freakin' pass game. Sure, he has 2 solid receivers, but come on...

 

Personally, on paper, if I'm given a list of QBs to start a team with, from scratch, Roethlisberger would be about 10 or 11 on my list given his poise, decent arm, blend of mobility and strength, moxie, and general talent. THAT'S what this post was all about... obviously it's hard to say he'd start over a certain QB in a certain system on a certain team if that QB has invested time and energy into the "project" (read: Pennington, Palmer, etc.).

 

[I Like Soup]

I think you missed Donut's point.

 

I believe he's saying that there are only a handful of QBs (McNabb, Favre, etc.) that Big Ben would NOT start over on a certain team.

 

Essentially he rated Roethlisberger (around) the 10th best NFL QB (not talking fantasy stats here).

 

Am I off base? 

 

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That dang reader's comprehension thing bites me in the buttocks again!

 

Gotcha. I kind of agree with jgcoach that Big Ben has made the most of his situation in Pittsburgh. We saw the rookie in him come out last week against the Jets. And it is certainly difficult to determine how a player would react in a situation if he were in it; i.e., behind the Giants O-line etc. Is he a better QB than Josh McCown down in Arizona or Tim Rattay in SF?.....I think so but I'm not sold he would fair so well in either situaton. With that said, I do think Ben would be a better option than probably half of the league's starters because he has shown the poise I think is pertinent to being an NFL starting QB.

[Chavez]

I think it's too early to tell with too many variables in the question.

 

Is Big Ben a talented and poised young QB? Yep. And that undefeated record is d*mn impressive - I don't believe that happens by mistake.

 

But he's also in a GREAT situation - great running game and defense so he doesn't have to win games by himself for the most part. When he does throw, he has two Pro Bowl caliber WRs and a #3 who would start for a lot of teams himself.

 

The Jets game showed he still needs a bit of seasoning. I think the NE game will show us just how far he needs to go.

[Chavez]

He'd start on about half the teams in the league in my opinion,

 

He'd carry a clipboard in behind (in no particular order) Brady, Pennington, PManning, McNair, Carr, Brees, Green, Plummer, McNabb, Vick, Favre, Culpepper, Palmer,  and Bulger.

 

He'd compete for the starting position with Hasselbeck, Delhomme, Bledsoe, E.Manning, Leftwich.

 

He'd be an immediate starter in Cleveland, Oakland, New Orleans, Arizona, Washington, Dallas, Miami, San Francicso, Detroit, Chicago, Tampa Bay.  Oh, and Pittsburgh.

 

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This is a nice list to work from;

 

I'd personally move Delhomme onto the top list, and put NO, Oak, and TB in the compete list. Probably Arizona too, but I like McCown. Not necessarily an indictment of his talent, but I think the coaches in those places would have been loath to move him ahead of veteran starters or in Gruden's case start a rookie at all.

 

I'd move Plummer down to the compete list - one thing about Plummer is he seems to have a knack for the killer mistake, a bugaboo that Roethlisberger DOESN'T have.

 

Which would put him on the bench for 14 teams, in the mix for 9 and the MAN for the other 8. Not counting the Steelers, of course, we know the story there.

[I Like Soup]

I'd move Plummer down to the compete list - one thing about Plummer is he seems to have a knack for the killer mistake, a bugaboo that Roethlisberger DOESN'T have.

 

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Well, we won't count Ben's two INTs (two killer mistakes within a couple of minutes) in the Jets game because the Steelers won it on the foot of Doug Brien (or off, whichever!).

 

I totally agree with your assessment of Plummer; when it comes time for the big play, Jake is there to screw it up. Trust me, we saw his affinity for coming up short and making big mistakes plenty here in Arizona.

[Retrograde assault]

He would of been a complete flop in Dallas this year with no one to hand off to for most of the year and no defense to lean on. Pokes didn't have two big vet wr's to help bail him out either. Big Ben woulda been a big gomer with a big target on his back in Big D.

[jgcoach]

  THAT'S what this post was all about... obviously it's hard to say he'd start over a certain QB in a certain system on a certain team if that QB has invested time and energy into the "project" (read:  Pennington, Palmer, etc.).

 

 

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I would have to disagree somewhat. I think Ben in the same situation he's in now, being in that situation in St.Lou, San Fran, NY, or any team with a vet QB; in which their line, RBs, WRs and Def. were not the caliber of Pitt. you would see a drastic change; knowing the system as he does now in Pitt. or not. Yes, the man is talented, and yes he does show poise in the pocket but, with one D lineman in the backfield he can afford to be. He also does have a great running game to take the heat off; while you don't think it compares to Denver, I think it does but in a different way with Staley and Bettis banging inside and wearing down defences. When Ben's number is called to throw, and that isn't near as often as a lot of QBs rook or not, most throws are high percentage passes and he's throwing to 2 outstanding rec. There have been many passes thrown so far behind the rec. he's had to do a 360 in mid air. On most teams that ball is incomplete or intercepted but, Ward and Plax make those catches. I will say this, he's a talent for sure but, to go out on a limb and say he would be top 10 or 11, I don't think so. Does this make any difference in Pitt. no, they'll be a force and so will Ben for some time to come so I don't think it matters where he would or wouldn't start. The most important thing is he's throwing for Pitt. and in that system right now I don't think they'd trade him for anyone, except maybe Manning and he's so expensive to have they might just keep Ben.

[Ursa Majoris]

Possibly this thread might have been a tad premature......DJ might be wishing the thread deletion ability was still around.

[phenom]

Possibly this thread might have been a tad premature......DJ might be wishing the thread deletion ability was still around. 

 

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Ouch.............

[steeler]

Possibly this thread might have been a tad premature......DJ might be wishing the thread deletion ability was still around. 

 

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These kind of posts often come back to haunt people.

[Vet]

Possibly this thread might have been a tad premature......DJ might be wishing the thread deletion ability was still around. 

 

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Yeah - He might not even start ahead of Tommy Maddox anymore