CaptainHook Posted March 26, 2005 Share Posted March 26, 2005 (edited) Who says he studies harder than any other player? Can you prove that? When the Rich Gannon lead the Raiders to the Super Bowl and was the league MVP they said no other player studied or practiced harder. So what, doesn't make you the one player to build a team around. There are many many players in the league that study game tape. What's old is the perception that he is the only one. 751680[/snapback] Not many guys devote an entire room in their home to studying game film. Not many guys watch every play of every game of every opponent looking for tendancies. Not many have a camera focused on them at all times to see if he is tipping whether the play is run or pass. He studies harder than any player in the NFL and it isn't even close. Marshall Faulk in the 5 years he was there he was top 10 in rushing twice, top 5 once, his rookie year. Two times out 5 years he was in the top 5 for rushing TD's, the other 3 years he wasn't even in the top 10. Yards from scrimmage rushing/receiving he lead the league in 98, 3 other years he didn't place in the top 10 at all. So really he only had 2 above average seasons his rookie year and his last year with Indy were his best, 95-97 he wasn't even a top 10 RB. Having an opposing coach say he is going to do the conga because he got traded isn't much of an endorsement. You probably believe Parcells really did the conga.751680[/snapback] Like I said, I'm sure you didn't see him play much. He was unbelievable. He was also the only player opposing defenses had to key against. That really hurt his stats, but make no mistake, he was a top 5 RB in the NFL. He did hurt his knee in the first quarter of the last game in 1995 which carried over into 1996. Marshall never had huge rushing totals, it was his contributions in the passing game that made him so unique. 1994: 314 carries 1282 yards 11 TD 52 catches 522 yards 1 TD 1995: 289 carries 1078 yards 11 TD 56 catches 475 yards 3 TD 1996: 198 carries 587 yards 7 TD 56 catches 428 yards 0 TD 1997: 264 carries 1054 yards 7 TD 47 catches 471 yards 1 TD 1998: 324 carries 1319 yards 7 TD 86 catches 908 yards 4 TD So Manning beat Denver or KC, he also got blasted by the Jets and you know how miserable he has looked against the Patriots. In fact I would say Jake Delhomme played way better than Manning did against the Patriots in last years Super Bowl. It's not that Manning lost to the Patriots but how he lost. Throwing 4 INT's in one game and just not showing up in the last game. Manning is like Barry Bonds was early in his career. Great during the regular season not so good in the playoff's. Nobody is going to remember Manning beating the Bronco's in the divisional playoff's............. 751680[/snapback] Manning played pretty well in the Jets game. There were at least 8 dropped passes and countless other errors by the Colts in that game. Delhomme had the advantage of playing the Pats on a neutral field. And still lost. Like I said, until someone knocks off the Pats, I don't see how the "He Can't Beat the Patriots" is even a valid argument. Nobody can. Edited March 26, 2005 by CaptainHook Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sgt. Ryan Posted March 26, 2005 Share Posted March 26, 2005 Peyton without Question. When Indy finally gets a defense, this team will win multiple Super Bowls. You put Brady on Indy, and they dont make the playoffs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phenom Posted March 26, 2005 Share Posted March 26, 2005 Peyton without Question. When Indy finally gets a defense, this team will win multiple Super Bowls. You put Brady on Indy, and they dont make the playoffs. 751786[/snapback] When they get a defense, you mean more like maybe. Multiple Super Bowls ha. Manning's contract isn't going to be cap friendly forever and Freeney is going to be coming up for renewal in 2006 since he is going to reach minimum playing incentives and can void the 2007-08 seasons on his contract. They are going to have to find a replacement for Edge. Their window is limited. If I had to pick a current QB it would be Favre. Right behind him it would be Vick. Of all time it would be Elway. But to win I would go defense with Marcus Stroud or Sam Adams when he was younger......... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sgt. Ryan Posted March 26, 2005 Share Posted March 26, 2005 When they get a defense, you mean more like maybe. Multiple Super Bowls ha. Manning's contract isn't going to be cap friendly forever and Freeney is going to be coming up for renewal in 2006 since he is going to reach minimum playing incentives and can void the 2007-08 seasons on his contract. They are going to have to find a replacement for Edge. Their window is limited.If I had to pick a current QB it would be Favre. Right behind him it would be Vick. Of all time it would be Elway. But to win I would go defense with Marcus Stroud or Sam Adams when he was younger......... 751799[/snapback] If I was starting a DL, Grant, Peppers, Kerny and Abraham would be my top 4. Those 2 wouldnt make the top 20. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glabra Posted March 26, 2005 Share Posted March 26, 2005 Peyton without Question. When Indy finally gets a defense, this team will win multiple Super Bowls. You put Brady on Indy, and they dont make the playoffs. 751786[/snapback] In conjunction with that explosive offense, that defense this year was more than adequate. They did an admirable job against the Pats but the offense didn't let them get off the field. When Peyton grows some, ahem, intestinal fortitude, this team will win multiple SBs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phenom Posted March 26, 2005 Share Posted March 26, 2005 If I was starting a DL, Grant, Peppers, Kerny and Abraham would be my top 4. Those 2 wouldnt make the top 20. 751811[/snapback] Those are DE's. I considered those but I think that any defense has to be strong up the middle first. No LB, CB or DE is going to be effective without strong support from the middle............ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaptainHook Posted March 26, 2005 Share Posted March 26, 2005 (edited) Manning's contract isn't going to be cap friendly forever and Freeney is going to be coming up for renewal in 2006 since he is going to reach minimum playing incentives and can void the 2007-08 seasons on his contract. They are going to have to find a replacement for Edge. Their window is limited.If I had to pick a current QB it would be Favre. Right behind him it would be Vick. Of all time it would be Elway. But to win I would go defense with Marcus Stroud or Sam Adams when he was younger......... 751799[/snapback] Manning's contract is cap friendly for the next 3 years. And when it stops being cap friendly, they will re-work it. The Colts won't re-sign Edge next year (they might trade him this year), and they will have plenty of room to re-sign Freeney. Irsay has already been quoted as saying that is a priority. Vick? Are you kidding? He hasn't made the Super Bowl either. He can't beat the Eagles. That seems to be your criteria. I think it's laughable that you say "to win I would go defense with Marcus Stroud". The Jaguars haven't even made the play-offs with him. A lot of help he's been. So let's see. So far you would take Marcus Stroud, Sam Adams, or Adam Vinatieri to build your team. I'm glad you aren't the Colts GM. Edited March 26, 2005 by CaptainHook Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sgt. Ryan Posted March 26, 2005 Share Posted March 26, 2005 (edited) Stroud isnt even the best DT on that team. A DT is the last position on the defense Id even fill unless you are playing a 3-4 defense. And Sam Adams couldnt carry Pat Williams joke at DT, let alone about half the Dts in the league. Id take Tony Siragusa over Sam F'n Adams in their prime any day of the weak. Quick tell me the last time a DT has made a play to win a SB. I cant think of any but Randy White about 25 yrs ago. Edited March 26, 2005 by Sgt. Ryan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hat Trick Posted March 26, 2005 Share Posted March 26, 2005 That's a good question and I think that most football observers say that since the QB has his hands on the ball every play you have to have a competent QB. I would have agreed perhaps 15 years or even 10 years ago but not anymore. This argument right here between Tom Brady and Peyton Manning; if Manning was so good he would at least get to a Super Bowl. I mean look at Elway he took some average Bronco's teams to 3 Super Bowls on just his ability. He raised the level of his teammates play. I think that is the biggest issue I have with Manning. Why is he so smart? Because he calls fake audibles and pantomines at the line? Big deal. Because the Colts have a massive playbook that he has to know inside and out? So what Kurt Warner did the same thing with the Rams offense because you know Mike Martz likes to tinker. I think Manning is a great QB surrounded by Pro Bowl talent, with a front office that will cater to his every desire. He isn't raising an average offense (forget team) to new heights, he's working with great talent. If he was on the Baltimore Ravens you think everyone would be calling him the best in the game? No way period. I call it the Marshall Faulk effect. Faulk was good back with the Colts, not great, not top 5, marginally top 10 and he had a poor attitude. Which is why he got traded to the Rams. He got put into the Rams offense with Torry Holt, Az Hakim, Isaac Bruce and then unknown Kurt Warner. Magically he becomes the best RB in the game and an MVP. What happened those 5 other years he was with the Colts? Was he holding back or something? Manning hasn't shown he can lead his team to victory when the playoff's come around. You can make all the excuses you want about the sad Colt's defense but if Manning is so good he would play bigger when it counts. This question is rigged anyway, if we follow the Patriots model (and we all are because all of our teams are trying to copy NE just admit it) they don't put one player above the rest. No one player is not expendable. I mean if you really want to say who the best player in the NFL is you should say Adam Vinatieri. He has been franchised twice by NE so Bill Belichik is saying he is not expendable........... 751545[/snapback] Okay I kind of agree with some of what you say, but when you say talk about faulk and everryone around him making him better I don't necissarily completely agree. Enter Priest Holmes into your logic. He doesn't have all these stars around him. I know, I know you all are gonna rip me about how good the O-line is Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sgt. Ryan Posted March 26, 2005 Share Posted March 26, 2005 (edited) Priest Holmes is an excellent reason a RB couldnt be the #1 pick. Holmes behind the line in Baltimore was an average back, maybe #20 RB overall. He moves to KC and he is the #1 fantasy back. he goes down last yr and LJ is the #1 fantasy back the last 6 weeks of the season. But in Balitmore where Holmes was an avg back, Jamal was a top 5 Rb in 2003 before the drama of last season. KC system is similar if not better than Denver for inserting avg backs and making them great fantasy backs. Could you imagine what LT could do in Denver or KC. Id say at or near 2000 rushing yrs on a yearly basis and maybe 2800 total yds and do you even want to guess how many TDS. Edited March 26, 2005 by Sgt. Ryan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hat Trick Posted March 26, 2005 Share Posted March 26, 2005 Priest Holmes is an excellent reason a RB couldnt be the #1 pick.Holmes behind the line in Baltimore was an average back, maybe #20 RB overall. He moves to KC and he is the #1 fantasy back. he goes down last yr and LJ is the #1 fantasy back the last 6 weeks of the season. But in Balitmore where Holmes was an avg back, Jamal was a top 5 Rb in 2003 before the drama of last season. KC system is similar if not better than Denver for inserting avg backs and making them great fantasy backs. Could you imagine what LT could do in Denver or KC. Id say at or near 2000 rushing yrs on a yearly basis and maybe 2800 total yds and do you even want to guess how many TDS. 751915[/snapback] Yep Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phenom Posted March 26, 2005 Share Posted March 26, 2005 Stroud isnt even the best DT on that team. A DT is the last position on the defense Id even fill unless you are playing a 3-4 defense. And Sam Adams couldnt carry Pat Williams joke at DT, let alone about half the Dts in the league. Id take Tony Siragusa over Sam F'n Adams in their prime any day of the weak. Quick tell me the last time a DT has made a play to win a SB. I cant think of any but Randy White about 25 yrs ago. 751871[/snapback] DT don't make the play they are the setup men that allow the rest of the defense to make plays. Tony Siragusa? He is strictly known just because he fell on Rich Gannon. Did you know he played for Indy for 7 years and didn't do sheyit. Go check the stats Sam Adams kills Siragusa and he was a Pro Bowler in 01 and 02. Also Adams went to the Ravens in 2000 and that's the year they won the Super Bowl; the next year the Ravens were ranked 2nd overall in least yards given up. In '02 Adams left the Ravens and they went from being ranked 2nd overall in total yards given up to 22nd in yards given up. That defense had Ray Lewis, Ed Reed, Chris McAllister, Peter Boulware and Michael Mcrary on it. Like I said DT's do all the dirty work that doesn't get appreciated but they do the things that let the rest of the defense win games. If you want to say that you should pick a player that makes plays to win the Super Bowl then you have to go back to Adam Vinatieri. In all 3 of the Patriots victories he has been the key to them eventually winning......... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
broncosn05 Posted March 26, 2005 Share Posted March 26, 2005 Herm Edwards if we are talking coach Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
godtomsatan Posted March 26, 2005 Share Posted March 26, 2005 When they get a defense, you mean more like maybe. Multiple Super Bowls ha. Manning's contract isn't going to be cap friendly forever and Freeney is going to be coming up for renewal in 2006 since he is going to reach minimum playing incentives and can void the 2007-08 seasons on his contract. They are going to have to find a replacement for Edge. Their window is limited. 751799[/snapback] Elway didn't win until he got TD. Manning still has plenty of time to get a ring. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
broncosn05 Posted March 26, 2005 Share Posted March 26, 2005 I hate Brady. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
broncosn05 Posted March 26, 2005 Share Posted March 26, 2005 Allen Rossum is flat out the best player in the NFL......... Special Teams are the most underrated players on a team...... But they can also win or lose a game for you...... I wish I was kidding............. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phenom Posted March 26, 2005 Share Posted March 26, 2005 Elway didn't win until he got TD. Manning still has plenty of time to get a ring. 752059[/snapback] Elway went to 3 Super Bowls without TD. He then won 2 more with TD. Conicidentally Denver hasn't won a playoff game in the 6 years since Elway has retired and they have had some pretty good RB's since. Manning can't even get to one Super Bowl and he has Harrison and James so what's his excuse........... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ursa Majoris Posted March 26, 2005 Share Posted March 26, 2005 Manning has a poor defense and New England to contend with. The original question is "who would you begin building a team around?". If you believe it should be a QB, as I do, then Manning is a no-brainer. The fact that NE is a better TEAM than everyone else is irrelevant to the original question. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phenom Posted March 26, 2005 Share Posted March 26, 2005 Manning has a poor defense and New England to contend with. The original question is "who would you begin building a team around?". If you believe it should be a QB, as I do, then Manning is a no-brainer. The fact that NE is a better TEAM than everyone else is irrelevant to the original question. 752217[/snapback] By Elway's 4th season he had the Bronco's in the Super Bowl. He went again in his 5th season. And went again his 7th season. Manning is going to ride this "no defense" and "I had to play against New England!" all the way to a Dan Marino career. Manning has limitations. He isn't mobile at all so when a play doesn't go the way it is drawn up or he can't find the matchup he wants he makes mistakes. Manning doesn't create something out of nothing which is a staple of all the great QB's that have been winners. Steve Young John Elway Brett Favre Fran Tarkenton Joe Montana Ken Stabler Terry Bradshaw It's not even having great mobility but Manning is too programmed, maybe he studies too much but his improvisational skills are for sh'it. When everything is going his way Manning is one of the best of all time. But I have yet to see Manning, under pressure, win a big game. No intangibles which is unfortunately for Manning is what Brady appears to have........... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Captains Wench Posted March 26, 2005 Share Posted March 26, 2005 Dang it... I hate having to agree with this! If I'm going to be honest though, Favre is the guy I'd pick to build a franchise around too. 751774[/snapback] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaptainHook Posted March 26, 2005 Share Posted March 26, 2005 (edited) Manning has limitations. He isn't mobile at all so when a play doesn't go the way it is drawn up or he can't find the matchup he wants he makes mistakes. Manning doesn't create something out of nothing which is a staple of all the great QB's that have been winners. . .It's not even having great mobility but Manning is too programmed, maybe he studies too much but his improvisational skills are for sh'it. When everything is going his way Manning is one of the best of all time. But I have yet to see Manning, under pressure, win a big game. No intangibles which is unfortunately for Manning is what Brady appears to have........... 752261[/snapback] You really are a no-nothing idiot. Did you happen to catch Manning's LEFT-HANDED pass on MNF to get a first down and seal the game against Minnesota? If you think Manning can't "create something out of nothing" try watching some of his two-minute drills throughout his career. It really shows how little you know about football when you keep talking about Adam Vinatieri being the "key" player for the Pats and the guy you'd build a team around. Edited March 26, 2005 by CaptainHook Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaptainHook Posted March 26, 2005 Share Posted March 26, 2005 Tony Siragusa? He is strictly known just because he fell on Rich Gannon. Did you know he played for Indy for 7 years and didn't do sheyit.752011[/snapback] Siragusa was a very good DT for the Colts. He was instrumental on the team that went to the AFC Championship in '95. I'm not saying I think he's the best of all time, but merely pointing out that once again, you don't know what you are talking about. But I know why you're upset. After all, he crushed the Raiders hopes with one fall. . . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phenom Posted March 27, 2005 Share Posted March 27, 2005 You really are a no-nothing idiot. Did you happen to catch Manning's LEFT-HANDED pass on MNF to get a first down and seal the game against Minnesota? If you think Manning can't "create something out of nothing" try watching some of his two-minute drills throughout his career. It really shows how little you know about football when you keep talking about Adam Vinatieri being the "key" player for the Pats and the guy you'd build a team around. 752465[/snapback] Well roll of the floor all you want to but Vinatieri has been franchised twice now. Explain that when you get off the floor. Someone in NE things he's special. Now as for Manning get out of your box. Manning is a great regular season QB. Just like Dan Marino. But when it comes time to make big plays when it counts Manning falls short, way short. And one left handed pass against the Vikings in the regular season isn't that impressive. He hasn't performed well in the playoff's. His first 3 appearances in the playoff's he was one and done, 0-3. And I really don't care how many dropped passes there were in that Jets game, 41-0 is an *** whipping and Manning should take a lot of the blame. And the problem is it's not even close when Manning plays the Patriots. He is looking bad, 4 INT's in the first matchup and then the whole offense doesn't show up last time. What happened to all that preparation? Was he delinquent? Or maybe someone else just outprepared him? You also need to get rid of that tired excuse of nobody beat the Patriots so Manning is excused. If you want to be considered the best you have to beat the best. Ken Stabler had to go against Terry Bradshaw who had to go against Bob Griese who had to battle Roger Staubach. Joe Montana had to overcome the Dallas Cowboys. The Giants had to beat the Redskins who had to beat the 49ers. John Elway had to beat Brett Favre. This thing isn't going to be gift wrapped for Manning, he's going to have to earn it. If Manning was as good as everyone thinks he is then he wouldn't have the overrated label on him.......... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaptainHook Posted March 27, 2005 Share Posted March 27, 2005 (edited) Scroll back through this thread and see how many people would build their team with him. 'Nuff said. I've never said Manning is the best QB. He's not. But he's in the top 20 and his career is only half complete. I just find it amusing that you go out of your way to bash him whenever you can. Did he steal your girlfriend or something? I've been through the first 3 playoff games with you before, and it is still obvious you did not watch them. As for being labeled by some as overrated, Brady has won three Super Bowls and some people still say he is "overrated". That means nothing. One more question. Why do you always read the thread and reply, (I know you are replying because the dots are under your name at the bottom of the thread) then you disappear out of The Huddle without making the post. About 2 minutes later you are back and add your post then. You do it every time. Why is that? Edited March 27, 2005 by CaptainHook Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phenom Posted March 27, 2005 Share Posted March 27, 2005 Siragusa was a very good DT for the Colts. He was instrumental on the team that went to the AFC Championship in '95. I'm not saying I think he's the best of all time, but merely pointing out that once again, you don't know what you are talking about. But I know why you're upset. After all, he crushed the Raiders hopes with one fall. . . 752467[/snapback] Siragusa Pro Bowls = 0 (including that instrumental year he had with Colts in 95 but I'm sure he was robbed) Adams Pro Bowls = 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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