Brentastic

The country is broke, state and local govts broke

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You should sing about it.

 

Are you saying we should go after hippies that play music and follow really bad economic theories? :wacko:

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Are you saying we should go after hippies that play music and follow really bad economic theories? :wacko:

 

No he should seriously sing about it. Don't tell me you havn't been invited to one of Brents singing events.

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I have have never heard of a campaign promise to bring down the teaching cartel. Why do politicians consider them evil after they're elected and not before?

 

Brent, nice post. :wacko:

Edited by MikesVikes

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Teachers!!

 

No need to go after greedy bankers or businessmen. Nope, teachers are the culprit! :wacko:

 

I hate this country more every day.

Finally a Brentastic post I agree with. (Although I don't hate our country, it just disappoints me sometimes.)

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Finally a Brentastic post I agree with. (Although I don't hate our country, it just disappoints me sometimes.)

 

You don't mind that these union people are living in an economic fantasyland? Nah, you probably don't.

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If public unions are an issue, then go after all of them equally. Walker is just going after the union that didnt endorse himand exempting others. that is as cowardly as they come. Comparable to certain organizations getting waivers from the Obama admin.

 

The proposals by walker arent that outrageous, but I am still curious of why their ability to collectvely bargain is also being removed.

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You don't mind that these union people are living in an economic fantasyland? Nah, you probably don't.

 

You know who lives in a fantasy land? The people who think teachers are just raking in the money.

http://www.payscale.com/best-colleges/degrees.asp

 

Best Undergrad College Degrees By Salary Starting Median Pay Mid-Career Median Pay

 

Petroleum Engineering $93,000 $157,000

 

Aerospace Engineering $59,400 $108,000

 

Chemical Engineering $64,800 $108,000

 

Electrical Engineering $60,800 $104,000

 

Nuclear Engineering $63,900 $104,000

 

Applied Mathematics $56,400 $101,000

 

Biomedical Engineering $54,800 $101,000

 

Physics $50,700 $99,600

 

Computer Engineering $61,200 $99,500

 

Economics $48,800 $97,800

 

Computer Science $56,200 $97,700

 

Industrial Engineering $58,200 $97,600

 

Mechanical Engineering $58,300 $97,400

 

Building Construction $52,900 $94,500

 

Materials Science & Engineering $59,400 $93,600

 

Civil Engineering $53,500 $93,400

 

Statistics $50,000 $92,900

 

Finance $47,500 $91,500

 

Software Engineering $56,700 $91,300

 

Management Information Systems $50,900 $90,300

 

Mathematics $46,400 $88,300

 

Government $41,500 $87,300

 

Information Systems $49,300 $87,100

 

Construction Management $50,400 $87,000

 

Environmental Engineering $51,000 $85,500

 

Electrical Engineering Technology $55,500 $85,300

 

Supply Chain Management $49,400 $84,500

 

Mechanical Engineering Technology $53,300 $84,300

 

Chemistry $42,400 $83,700

 

Computer Information Systems $48,300 $83,100

 

International Relations $42,400 $83,000

 

Molecular Biology $40,200 $82,900

 

Urban Planning $41,600 $82,800

 

Industrial Design $42,100 $82,300

 

Geology $44,600 $82,200

 

Biochemistry $39,800 $82,000

 

Political Science $40,100 $81,700

 

Industrial Technology $49,400 $81,500

 

Food Science $48,500 $81,100

 

Information Technology $49,600 $79,300

 

Architecture $41,900 $78,400

 

Telecommunications $40,000 $78,300

 

Film Production $36,100 $77,800

 

Accounting $44,600 $77,500

 

Marketing $38,600 $77,300

 

Occupational Health and Safety $52,300 $77,000

 

Civil Engineering Technology $48,100 $75,600

 

International Business $42,600 $73,700

 

Advertising $37,800 $73,200

 

History $38,500 $73,000

 

Philosophy $39,100 $72,900

 

Biology $38,400 $72,800

 

Microbiology $40,600 $72,600

 

American Studies $40,900 $72,500

 

Fashion Design $37,700 $72,200

 

Communications $38,200 $72,200

 

Environmental Science $41,600 $71,600

 

Global & International Studies $38,400 $71,400

 

Geography $39,600 $71,200

 

Business $41,100 $70,600

 

Public Administration $39,000 $70,600

 

Landscape Architecture $43,200 $70,300

 

Biotechnology $47,500 $70,100

 

Zoology $34,600 $68,800

 

Drama $40,700 $68,300

 

Nursing $52,700 $68,200

 

Health Sciences $38,300 $68,100

 

Radio & Television $39,200 $67,800

 

Hotel Management $37,900 $67,600

 

English $37,800 $67,500

 

Forestry $37,000 $67,200

 

Journalism $35,800 $66,600

 

Hospitality & Tourism $36,200 $65,800

 

Literature $37,500 $65,700

 

Public Health $37,800 $65,700

 

Liberal Arts $35,700 $63,900

 

Public Relations $35,700 $63,400

 

Anthropology $36,200 $62,900

 

Psychology $35,300 $62,500

 

Animal Science $34,600 $62,100

 

Sociology $36,600 $62,100

 

Human Resources $38,100 $61,900

 

Kinesiology $34,400 $61,600

 

French $39,600 $61,400

 

Multimedia & Web Design $40,100 $61,200

 

Photography $35,100 $61,200

 

Health Care Administration $37,700 $60,800

 

Organizational Management $41,500 $60,500

 

Fine Arts $35,400 $60,300

 

Humanities $38,600 $60,100

 

Sports Management $37,300 $59,800

 

Agriculture $42,300 $59,700

 

Theater $35,300 $59,600

 

Fashion Merchandising $35,000 $59,300

 

Medical Technology $43,800 $59,300

 

Exercise Science $32,800 $59,000

 

Spanish $37,100 $58,200

 

Criminal Justice $35,600 $58,000

 

Visual Communication $36,800 $57,700

 

Social Science $38,100 $57,200

 

Art History $39,400 $57,100

 

Music $36,700 $57,000

 

Graphic Design $35,400 $56,800

 

Nutrition $42,200 $56,700

 

Interior Design $34,400 $56,600

 

Interdisciplinary Studies $35,600 $55,700

 

Education $35,100 $54,900

 

Art $33,500 $54,800

 

Religious Studies $34,700 $54,400

 

Dietetics $40,400 $54,200

 

Special Education $36,000 $53,800

 

Recreation & Leisure Studies $33,300 $53,200

 

Theology $34,700 $51,300

 

Paralegal Studies/Law $35,100 $51,300

 

Horticulture $35,000 $50,800

 

Culinary Arts $35,900 $50,600

 

Athletic Training $32,800 $45,700

 

Social Work $31,800 $44,900

 

Elementary Education $31,600 $44,400

 

Child and Family Studies $29,500 $38,400

Edit: I do want to add a caveat: these salaries are for people who only have a bachelor's degree. Most teachers can get raises by getting a master's degree in education (which is perhaps the easiest master's degree in the world to get).

 

Nevertheless, the point remains that it ain't teachers who are breaking the state's budgets.

Edited by wiegie

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You know who lives in a fantasy land? The people who think teachers are just raking in the money.

http://www.payscale.com/best-colleges/degrees.asp

 

 

Edit: I do want to add a caveat: these salaries are for people who only have a bachelor's degree. Most teachers can get raises by getting a master's degree in education (which is perhaps the easiest master's degree in the world to get).

 

Nevertheless, the point remains that it ain't teachers who are breaking the state's budgets.

What does your list have to do with the state's budget? Please show me the same list with the amount of each person in a specific field that is employed by the state.

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Nevertheless, the point remains that it ain't teachers who are breaking the state's budgets.

 

No one said it is their salaries...it is their pension plans currently billions underwater. A quick glance of those making more on your list don't have their pensions and benefits funded by taxpayers to that extent. In the private sector, we have to fund our own pensions (as if most of us have that anymore) and pay for our own benefits.

 

 

And I'm not going to mention how the time off they get since that has been beaten to death whereas the rest of the jobs on your list work 12 months a year. .

 

Edited by TimC

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No one said it is their salaries...it is their pension plans currently billions underwater. A quick glance of those making more on your list don't have their pensions and benefits funded by taxpayers to that extent. In the private sector, we have to fund our own pensions (as if most of us have that anymore) and pay for our own benefits.

 

 

And I'm not going to mention how the time off they get since that has been beaten to death whereas the rest of the jobs on your list work 12 months a year. .

 

Exactly...and he educates our children? Scary.

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No one said it is their salaries...it is their pension plans currently billions underwater. A quick glance of those making more on your list don't have their pensions and benefits funded by taxpayers to that extent. In the private sector, we have to fund our own pensions (as if most of us have that anymore) and pay for our own benefits.

 

 

And I'm not going to mention how the time off they get since that has been beaten to death whereas the rest of the jobs on your list work 12 months a year. .

 

You do know that people with pensions pay in to them, right? I actually oppose the whole concept of pensions and support their elimination for new hires right now but it's a similar situation to SS, changes will need to be done on a graduated slope of at least 20 years.

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You do know that people with pensions pay in to them, right? I actually oppose the whole concept of pensions and support their elimination for new hires right now but it's a similar situation to SS, changes will need to be done on a graduated slope of at least 20 years.

 

I know...I used to have a pension until our bank was sold. I agree with you 100%, but it's got to start somewhere. No one wants it to start with them, of course. The present course is unsustainable. Unless these state employees think the good times are going to return forever...or we raise taxes to pay for them. You can't live in the fantasyland these teachers and professors have created for themselves forever.

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No one said it is their salaries...it is their pension plans currently billions underwater. A quick glance of those making more on your list don't have their pensions and benefits funded by taxpayers to that extent. In the private sector, we have to fund our own pensions (as if most of us have that anymore) and pay for our own benefits.

 

 

And I'm not going to mention how the time off they get since that has been beaten to death whereas the rest of the jobs on your list work 12 months a year. .

 

You are correct that their salaries are at least partly low because they have good pensions/benefits. The government/taxpayers basically made them a promise that said, "we'll give you a low wage now but compensate you with good pensions in the future." Now the government/taxpayers seem to want to default on a debt that is owed when it comes time to pay. That's BS and you know it.

 

 

You might want to look at hours worked per year to make a valid comparison rather than days "off".

 

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I know...I used to have a pension until our bank was sold. I agree with you 100%, but it's got to start somewhere. No one wants it to start with them, of course. The present course is unsustainable. Unless these state employees think the good times are going to return forever...or we raise taxes to pay for them. You can't live in the fantasyland these teachers and professors have created for themselves forever.

I don't think Walker has taken the right approach at all and, IMO, he's going to lose in the long run. Much better to have approached the issue with a carrot as well as a stick. Reduced pension contributions in return for reduced pension obligations for people with xx years left, freeing pension payments from the worker for 401k-type systems, for instance.

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You are correct that their salaries are at least partly low because they have good pensions/benefits. The government/taxpayers basically made them a promise that said, "we'll give you a low wage now but compensate you with good pensions in the future." Now the government/taxpayers seem to want to default on a debt that is owed when it comes time to pay. That's BS and you know it.

 

 

You might want to look at hours worked per year to make a valid comparison rather than days "off".

 

 

I used to live across the street from the Marietta Middle school. Teachers were arriving when I left for work and were gone when I got home from work. That is as of 2 & 1/2 years ago. Prior to that, I left for work and the parking lot was empty, I got home from work and the parking lot was empty.

 

Unless they're working for 2 to 3 hours a day from home, they work the same hours as many other folks do.

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You are correct that their salaries are at least partly low because they have good pensions/benefits. The government/taxpayers basically made them a promise that said, "we'll give you a low wage now but compensate you with good pensions in the future." Now the government/taxpayers seem to want to default on a debt that is owed when it comes time to pay. That's BS and you know it.

 

 

You might want to look at hours worked per year to make a valid comparison rather than days "off".

 

 

I agree it's BS. We should be supporting the teachers. Instead, we give state money for food stamps and welfare to the unemployed that decide to crank out a new baby every 18 months or get paid under the table and don't report it to stay in poverty or scam the Social Security disability payrolls or a million other things we should be going after instead of teachers. But hey, no one wants to deal with the poor in this country when they are the real problem we are so poor. Give 'em a hand up and not a hand out. Let them starve if they just want to sit around playing X-Box all day. We need to investigate every claim. But hey, the poor vote Democrat mainly so let's just cover it up since they know to put a checkmark next to the (D) on the ballot to keep that teet suckling rolling in. We need to pick on the teachers instead of the real cause. Let them starve already, for chrissakes. I'm sorry you poor don't want a job...you want the job you think you're entitled to.

 

 

And teachers get off at 3:30...not to mention some snow days when it's a half inch on the ground and everyone else can get around but they don't want to expose the school buses to a lawsuit. :woot

 

Edited by TimC

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The teachers that I know that discuss this issue just feel that changing the rules of the game midstream puts them at a disadvantage. Teachers, cops and others in jobs where the pension at the end of the tunnel is the payoff, generally make squat in the early days but they have their eye on the prize. Halfway through the game the prize is changing. I see the flip side too of unsustainable pensions that are a burden on the State. this issue is a hot button in NJ as Christie is aggressively going after it. The whole thing is a mess

Edited by whomper

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The teachers that I know that discuss this issue just feel that changing the rules of the game midstream puts them at a disadvantage. Teachers, cops and others in jobs where the pension at the end of the tunnel is the payoff, generally make squat in the early days but they have their eye on the prize. Halfway through the game the prize is changing. I see the flip side too of unsustainable pensions that are a burden on the State. this issue is a hot button in NJ as Christie is aggressively going after it. The whole thing is a mess

Again, this can be addressed via a graduated scale over two decades.

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Again, this can be addressed via a graduated scale over two decades.

 

 

I agree as far as new hires but what about the people deep into the game ?

Edited by whomper

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I agree it's BS. We should be supporting the teachers. Instead, we give state money for food stamps and welfare to the unemployed that decide to crank out a new baby every 18 months or get paid under the table and don't report it to stay in poverty or scam the Social Security disability payrolls or a million other things we should be going after instead of teachers. But hey, no one wants to deal with the poor in this country when they are the real problem we are so poor. Give 'em a hand up and not a hand out. Let them starve if they just want to sit around playing X-Box all day. We need to investigate every claim. But hey, the poor vote Democrat mainly so let's just cover it up since they know to put a checkmark next to the (D) on the ballot to keep that teet suckling rolling in. We need to pick on the teachers instead of the real cause. Let them starve already, for chrissakes. I'm sorry you poor don't want a job...you want the job you think you're entitled to.

 

 

And teachers get off at 3:30...not to mention some snow days when it's a half inch on the ground and everyone else can get around but they don't want to expose the school buses to a lawsuit. :woot

 

 

If teachers did a better job at educating people...

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the root of the problem is described in this david brooks op-ed which I posted last year:

 

Daniel DiSalvo, a political scientist at the City College of New York, has a superb survey of the problem in the new issue of National Affairs. DiSalvo notes that nationally, state and local workers earn on average $14 more per hour in wages and benefits than their private sector counterparts. A city like Buffalo has as many public workers as it did in 1950, even though it has lost half its population.

 

These arrangements grew gradually. Through much of the 20th century, staunch liberals like Franklin Roosevelt opposed public sector unions. George Meany of the A.F.L.-C.I.O. argued that it is “impossible to bargain collectively with government.”

 

Private sector managers have to compete in the marketplace, so they have an incentive to push back against union requests. Ideally, some balance is found between the needs of workers and companies. Government managers possess a monopoly on their services and have little incentive to resist union demands. It would only make them unpopular.

 

In addition, public sector unions can use political power to increase demand for their product. DiSalvo notes that between 1989 and 2004, the American Federation of State, County and Municipal Employees was the biggest spender in American politics, giving $40 million to federal candidates. The largest impact is on low-turnout local elections. The California prison guard union recently sent a signal by spending $200,000 to defeat a state assemblyman who had tried to reduce costs.

 

In states across the country, elected leaders raise state employee salaries in the fat years and then are careful to placate the unions by raising future pension benefits in the lean ones. Even if cost-conscious leaders are elected, they find their hands tied by pension commitments and employee contracts.

 

The end result is sclerotic government.

 

be sure to read the linked disalvo piece as well. together, they spell out very articulately why actions like walker's and christie's are so desperately needed.

 

and to keep it in perspective, the measures really aren't that unreasobale or "draconian". from what I've read, they are keeping the pensions intact, they are just asking these teachers to pay slightly more into the fund out of their salary. it essentially amounts to a slight pay cut. the alternatives would seem to be either laying a bunch of the teachers off, keeping the broken system in place and screwing the quality of public education that much more; or let the states go bankrupt.

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I agree as fire as new hires but what about the people deep into the game ?

That's the point of graduating the change. If you have 20 years to go, your pension is much smaller but your contributions also shrink to nothing as time goes by. Those right on the end of their time would not be affected. Everyone in between would be on the graduated scale. Those with more than 20 years to go might get nothing but perhaps could get their contributions back over time in the form of increased wages.

 

The mechanics of it can be discussed but the bottom line is that the system is not sustainable...........but you can't just pull the rug out from people who have paid in for their entire careers.

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I know...I used to have a pension until our bank was sold. I agree with you 100%, but it's got to start somewhere. No one wants it to start with them, of course. The present course is unsustainable. Unless these state employees think the good times are going to return forever...or we raise taxes to pay for them. You can't live in the fantasyland these teachers and professors have created for themselves forever.

 

What makes you think that it hasn't "started" already?

Edited by MikesVikes

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