Norv Turner prefers Zack Crockett........

[notamomo]

No offense notamomo, but you are 100% mistaken if you think Collins is a mobile QB.

 

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Totally agree, Big Score. Not a mobile QB in the classic sense, but one who can make the ball fake for the play action adequately. Aikman was not a classic mobile QB either, but was perfect for this offense. That was my point.

 

Faking the ball the the back running to the 4,5 hole(off tackle) or the 6 hole (off TE) is very important. Collins can do that, get back in the 5-7 step drop, and fire the cannon. It's going to be fun to watch. I think we're looking at a new Big 3 in the making. Collins, Moss, and Jordan.

[Big Score 1]

Irvin was 6'2" and the King of the Push-Off - that's not a "red zone threat"?

 

Moss is a rare athlete, but short passing tds are due less to speed than to size and jumping ability. Irvin had size, and Chris Chambers can jump out of the stadium. Maybe they aren't in Moss's class, but wouldn't you have tried to get them the ball in the end zone?

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Considering how those offenses were designed and built and who the RB's were, no.

[Chavez]

Tell me again what that leoprad did last year.

 

It also seems to me you are overlooking a fairly strong 40+ year trend with Al Davis

 

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Well, taking a look at his longest-tenured HC over that 40 year span - Madden's teams finished an avg of 16th (out of 26 teams) in pass att; Tom Flores' team's finished an avg of 19th (out of 28); Art Shell's teams finished an avg of 24th; Jon Gruden's finished an avg of 18th. That's 26 years worth of coaches tending to throw the ball less often than over half the league.

 

Tell ME again how Davis makes his coaches throw the ball all the time....

[Chavez]

Considering how those offenses were designed and built and who the RB's were, no.

 

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...so with the same guy calling the plays, designing the offense, and having "the best short yardage back in the league" and a "very good short yardage back", you predict he's going to throw to Randy Moss.

[whomper]

If that is the case then my bubble is burst because Jordan as the sole back getting the call in the red zone had me very high on him. Im one of the people that had the big Jordan projections.If Crockett is gonna swipe the TDs its a major downer. Thanks for the article though. These types of threads are the reason why this site is so valuable..

Edited August 7, 2005 by whomper

[Chavez]

Heck, these threads are why the site is FUN. I love going at it hammer and tongs.

 

Especially with a worthy opponent like BigScore....

[Big Score 1]

...so with the same guy calling the plays, designing the offense, and having "the best short yardage back in the league" and a "very good short yardage back", you predict he's going to throw to Randy Moss.

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Has Norv drafted and built the Raiders offense from the ground up a la Jimmy Johnson's Dallas & Miami as a bruising ground oriented with Emmitt Smith or Ricky Williams @ RB?

 

Did a Norv designed offense last year, with "the best short yardage back in the league" on the roster, have the NFL's 4th most prolific aerial offense and the 31st ranked rushing offense?

[Chavez]

Has Norv drafted and built the Raiders offense from the ground up a la Jimmy Johnson's Dallas & Miami as a bruising ground oriented with Emmitt Smith or Ricky Williams @ RB?

 

...in the past two years, the Raiders drafted big'n'nasty OLs Jake Grove and Robert Gallery, signed big back Lamont Jordan to a big FA contract. What does it LOOK like he's trying to do?

Did a Norv designed offense last year, with "the best short yardage back in the league" on the roster, have the NFL's 4th most prolific aerial offense and the 31st ranked rushing offense?

 

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...looking at Norv's history as OC and HC, does last year fit in with the norm or appear to be the aberration?

Edited August 7, 2005 by Chavez

[Big Score 1]

...looking at Norv's history as OC and HC, does last year fit in with the norm or appear to be the aberration?

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Well if you look at it from the stand point of what Norv has done with the pieces he was given to work with, or inherited, it's not much of an aberration.

 

Norv has always been a master at desiginning offense to suit the personnel he has to work with.

 

And even though you want to disregard Norv's accomplishments as the Rams WR Coach, I don't.

 

So, taking into context all of Norv's coaching history, not just the coaching history that backs your point, it certainly was not an aberration.

Edited August 7, 2005 by Big Score 1

[Chavez]

Norv has always been a master at desiginning offense to suit the personnel he has to work with.

 

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Offenses which historically have backs that are VERY productive and WRs who aren't.

[Big Score 1]

Offenses which historically have backs that are VERY productive and WRs who aren't.

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I was editing the post that you quoted me on, so you missed this part

And even though you want to disregard Norv's accomplishments as the Rams WR Coach, I don't.

 

So, taking into context all of Norv's coaching history, not just the coaching history that backs your point, it certainly was not an aberration.

 

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Edited August 7, 2005 by Big Score 1

[Chavez]

And even though you want to disregard Norv's accomplishments as the Rams WR Coach, I don't.

 

So, taking into context all of Norv's coaching history, not just the coaching history that backs your point, it certainly was not an aberration.

 

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WR coaches don't CALL THE PLAYS. Anderson and Ellard had their best seasons with Turner as their position coach, but giving him 100% credit for the Rams prolific passing offense is like giving Brian Daboll props for the impressive offense on his team (points if you know what team that is).

 

And if you want to take the Rams offense into account, I have posted above that THAT offense ALSO had backs whose production for the most part exceeded that of its WRs.

[Ruffian]

WR coaches don't CALL THE PLAYS. Anderson and Ellard had their best seasons with Turner as their position coach, but giving him 100% credit for the Rams prolific passing offense is like giving Brian Daboll props for the impressive offense on his team (points if you know what team that is).

 

And if you want to take the Rams offense into account, I have posted above that THAT offense ALSO had backs whose production for the most part exceeded that of its WRs.

 

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He's the WR coach for your defending champion New England Patriots. God it hurts to say that.

[Big Score 1]

Offenses which historically have backs that are VERY productive and WRs who aren't.

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I try and look at the whole opicture. When Norv was an OC, it was for teams that were specifically designed and built from the ground up as running teams. When he was Head Coach with the Skins he indeed got magnificent production from his RB's, but I also saw Norv go out and get Brad Johnson and then take a rag tag pair of WR's in Westbrook & Connell and make them into a simultaneous pair of 1,000 yard WR's.

 

I saw what Norv did with Ellard & Anderson on the Rams.

 

Norv has never had as talented a group of WR's in his entire history of Coaching, as he does now.

 

Yes, Norv may try and force the emphasis to be Jordan and the ground game, but given the pieces he has at his disposal and their respective talents, I just don't think Norv is either that stupid, or that stubborn.

 

Now Mad Mike Martz......he's the type of Coach that will try and ram his game plan down the throats of his players, talent be darned.

 

But I just don't see Norv as being that egotistical.

[Avernus]

prepare for another 3-4 page thread on Jordan

[Big Score 1]

WR coaches don't CALL THE PLAYS.

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If you're going with that logic, then by the same token, OC's design and then execute the game plans their HEAD COACH wants.

 

Guess we'll have to throw out Norv's history as OC.

 

You can't have it both ways Chavez

Edited August 7, 2005 by Big Score 1

[Chavez]

I try and look at the whole opicture. When Norv was an OC, it was for teams that were specifically designed and built from the ground up as running teams. When he was Head Coach with the Skins he indeed got magnificent production from his RB's, but I also saw Norv go out and get Brad Johnson and then take a rag tag pair of WR's in Westbrook & Connell and make them into a simultaneous pair of 1,000 yard WR's.

 

I saw what Norv did with Ellard & Anderson on the Rams.

 

Norv has never had as talented a group of WR's in his entire history of Coaching, as he does now.

 

Yes, Norv may try and force the emphasis to be Jordan and the ground game, but given the pieces he has at his disposal and their respective talents, I just don't think Norv is either that stupid, or that stubborn.

 

Now Mad Mike Martz......he's the type of Coach that will try and ram his game plan down the throats of his players, talent be darned.

 

But I just don't see Norv as being that egotistical.

 

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It's not ego, it's philosophy; as I said, even WITH productive WRs - Ellard and Anderson, Irvin, Chambers, etc...Norv has always subscribed to the "pound, pound, pound to open up things for the big pass" - similar to what Joe Gibbs would do. Jordan, Crockett, Grove, and Gallery are part of the pounding end to open things up for Collins, Moss, and Porter.

 

And his history (Rams included) shows even IF he has two productive WRs, he still gives plenty of touches to his top RB. Particularly at the goal line.

[Chavez]

If you're going with that logic, then by the same token, OC's design and then execute the game plans their HEAD COACH wants.

 

Guess we'll have to throw out Norv's history as OC.

 

You can't have it both ways Chavez

 

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Unless the head coach determines "pass/run", I'm not having it both ways.

 

A WR coach teaches techniques; an OC determines who is the top option on a play and designs the game plan featuring player x or player y; and in most cases, calls what play is going to be run on game day - DIRECTLY affecting a player's value. Turner was his own OC in Washington and is in Oakland, and as far as I know, neither Jimmy, Wanny, nor Marty (or was it Mike Riley?) interfered with his play-calling on their respective teams. Certainly it's in the head coach's purview to say "Yo, Norv, this is what I wanna do" but the execution of it is in the OC's hands.

 

With the Rams, Turner was probably involved in INSTALLING the passing game, certainly having some effect on Ellard et al, but he wasn't determining who got the rock on game day - that was Zampese's job.

[Chavez]

And even though you want to disregard Norv's accomplishments as the Rams WR Coach, I don't.

 

So, taking into context all of Norv's coaching history, not just the coaching history that backs your point, it certainly was not an aberration.

 

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"Taking into context all of Norv's coaching history," I posted this earlier:

 

a quick look shows that from 85-90 the Rams featured a workhorse RB that ran for double-digit TDs EVERY YEAR (Dickerson 85-86, Charles White 87, Greg Bell 88-89, Cleveland Gary 90) and every one of them except Gary had at least 1100 yds.

That makes it a 20 year trend of productive RBs.

[Big Score 1]

It's not ego, it's philosophy; as I said, even WITH productive WRs - Ellard and Anderson, Irvin, Chambers, etc...Norv has always subscribed to the "pound, pound, pound to open up things for the big pass" -

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No, Jimmy Johnson, Wanny, Mike Riley and all the other Head Coaches Norv worked under, subscribed to that philosophy and built the teams that way. Norv as the OC, simply executed his Head Coaches design.

 

Irvin was on an island as far as WR went in Dallas ...same as Chambers in Miami.

 

Only with the Rams did Norv have a decent PAIR of WR's. He had an OK twosome with the Skins.

 

Again, this is the first time in Norv's entire Coaching career that he's had this talented a group of WR's.

 

I simply think you are not giving Norv enough credit for his ability to match the teams offensive game plan to the talent on hand. You can have philosophy up the wazoo, but I think Norv is smart enough to take advantage of his current teams strenghts, instead of wallowing in the philosophy of what he did yesterday.

[Chavez]

I simply think you are not giving Norv enough credit for his ability to match the teams offensive game plan to the talent on hand. You can have philosophy up the wazoo, but I think Norv is smart enough to take advantage of his current teams strenghts, instead of wallowing in the philosophy of what he did yesterday.

 

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I'm not saying he's going to throw the ball 10 times a game and run it 40, I'm saying that he historically is very run-centric. It's very similar to Vermeil taking the Rams offense to the Chiefs and everyone worrying that Gonzo's #s would go down; you got a big gun you shoot it. Moss will get his passes and so will Porter, but if you look at Norv's career as an OC AND as a HC, he historically has had VERY productive backs - from the Rams up to last year; Moss most likely WILL break the trend of middling td totals for WRs in that offense, but the trend indicates that Jordan should also be very productive as Norv's #1 back.

[Big Score 1]

An OC determines who is the top option on a play and designs the game plan featuring player x or player y; and in most cases, calls what play is going to be run on game day - as far as I know, neither Jimmy, Wanny, nor Marty (or was it Mike Riley?) interfered with his play-calling on their respective teams. Certainly it's in the head coach's purview to say "Yo, Norv, this is what I wanna do" but the execution of it is in the OC's hands.

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When the Head Coach gives you the pieces of the puzzle, a successful OC puts the square peg in the square hole and he puts the round peg in the round hole.

 

Now if as an OC, you try and put the square peg in the round hole, or vice versa and you do it often enough, you will not be the OC for long and until you prove at another level on another team that you have learned to successfully implement the Head Coaches grand design, you will probably not find your services in much demand.

 

By extension, the OC is only executing the Head Coaches offensive plan.

[Jo]

For as talented as Moss is, Porter is horribly overrated in my book. He's never hit 1000 yards and 6 of his TDs came in two games last year. Plus, Kerry Collins always has been and always will be an average QB. He's never thrown for over 22 TDs and is a turnover machine. He's the kind of QB who needs a ground game to take the pressure off him.

 

And I'm sure after watching him last year that Norv knows this more than anybody. Sure they'll take shots downfield, but I would be shocked if that offense doesn't revolve around the ground game.

 

As far as Crockett goes, who knows. He had 2 TDs last year, yeah, what a goalline back. And even if he takes a couple of short plunges from the 1-yard line, Norv's backs have historically had in the mid-to-high teens in TDs. That still leaves double digits for Jordan.

[Big Score 1]

Porter is horribly overrated in my book.  He's never hit 1000 yards and 6 of his TDs came in two games last year.

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Last year was Porter's first year as a starting WR. For the first time in his brief career, he was constantly double covered, had a QB change a quarter of the way through the season and came up a whopping 2 yards shy of 1,000 yard season. It's also extremely difficult to catch a TD when the ball isn't being thrown your way in the end zone.

 

 

But other than that....yeah....he's overrated.

[Big Score 1]

Time for dinner. It's been fun Chavez et al