Commish Dilemma

[WorstCoachingEver]

Throwing this dilemma out to all the fantasy players/commissioners. Semifinals were this weekend, and I have a points controversy. League is standard scoring with NO IDP. The team with the Bears defense was up 2 points, but I took 2 points off which caused that team to lose based on tiebreaker:

 

Play: Rex Grossman throws an interception on the Atlanta 1 yard line. The Atlanta d-man then proceeds to fumble the ball to the Bears on the same play.

 

Issue: Should this count as 2 pts for the Bears defense according to CBS?

 

My Reasoning:

 

1) You draft the Chicago D/ST. Not the Offensive players.

 

2) Atlanta's D/ST gets a net zero on the play as they got an INT and then fumbled. Thus, it would be unreasonable for the Bears offense to get points for the Bears defense when the offense (as a team) cannot get negative points.

 

3) If Atlanta returned the INT for a TD, the Bears D would not be punished. Thus the O turns into the D argument does not suffice.

 

Thanks in advance.

Edited December 19, 2005 by WorstCoachingEver

[alexgaddis]

we went through this before, and NO, it is not points for the Chicago D

 

imagine if Thomas Jones recovered the fumble for a TD, you wouldn't give it to Chicago D then right?

[WildTurkey]

The D did not make the recovery, thus the D does not get any points.

[SaintsFanUnfortunately]

The D did not make the recovery, thus the D does not get any points.

1225742[/snapback]

 

Turkey is right.

 

And the scoring systems usually don't allow for an individual offensive player to benefit from recovering a fumble. Anyway it would be for the individual offensive player and not the D unit.

[WorstCoachingEver]

imagine if Thomas Jones recovered the fumble for a TD, you wouldn't give it to Chicago D then right?

 

1225672[/snapback]

 

 

 

 

Very good point. Sorry if this has been brought up. Trying to get this headache resolved as quickly as possible.

[greenlight33]

Very good point.  Sorry if this has been brought up.  Trying to get this headache resolved as quickly as possible.

 

1225786[/snapback]

 

 

 

 

 

You can always use other websites to back you up. I know that Fanball did not count is as a fumble. That point about Thomas Jones is a great point. . . . .

 

It sucks being the commish at times. But you have facts that will back up your decision.

[bbutterus]

Throwing this dilemma out to all the fantasy players/commissioners.  Semifinals were this weekend, and I have a points controversy.  League is standard scoring with NO IDP.  The team with the Bears defense was up 2 points, but I took 2 points off which caused that team to lose based on tiebreaker:

 

Play:  Rex Grossman throws an interception on the Atlanta 1 yard line.  The Atlanta d-man then proceeds to fumble the ball to the Bears on the same play. 

 

Issue:  Should this count as 2 pts for the Bears defense according to CBS?

 

My Reasoning: 

 

1)  You draft the Chicago D/ST.  Not the Offensive players. 

 

2) Atlanta's D/ST gets a net zero on the play as they got an INT and then fumbled.  Thus, it would be unreasonable for the Bears offense to get points for the Bears defense when the offense (as a team) cannot get negative points. 

 

3)  If Atlanta returned the INT for a TD, the Bears D would not be punished.  Thus the O turns into the D argument does not suffice.

 

Thanks in advance.

 

1225663[/snapback]

 

 

 

[bbutterus]

Dear Fellow Commish,

As a fellow commish for almost a decade I have run into this multiple times. It makes for a sticky situation ( I do not envy your position). I did see the play to which you are referring. Essentiallythe "o" was the "d" at that particular time meaning the defense which was on the field regardless of the numbers on their back should be credited with the turnover. The fact of no IDP should not play a role. Good Luck if youre still alive if not better luck next year you should have drafted Chris Cooley!

[ecd2233]

Dear Fellow Commish,

                                  As a fellow commish for almost a decade I have run into this multiple times. It makes for a sticky situation ( I do not envy your position).  I did see the play to which  you are referring. Essentiallythe "o" was the "d" at that particular time meaning the defense which was on the field regardless of the numbers on their back should be credited with the turnover. The fact of no IDP should not play a role.  Good Luck if youre still alive if not better luck next year you should have drafted Chris Cooley!

1225856[/snapback]

The Rookie makes a point...My question here is how the NFL looks at it...There are the Stats for giveaways and takeaways, I would say if the fumble recovery was considered a takeaway in the NFL it makes sense to keep the points for the D/ST...I am not sure where to find that info, but it has to be out there...Basically, at the end of the year does it count for the BEARS D???? I am just really asking here. I may be 100% wrong

[wkanres@uark.edu]

This is why my league does not deal with fumbles!

[BearcatTom]

This has come up several times in the past. We have defaulted to how the NFL scored the play.

 

I think it really came up a couple years ago with Balt. when there was a fumble/int by the opposing team and during the run back, they fumbled the ball back to Balt., which picked it up and returned it for a TD.

 

In that case, the NFL actaully came out with a ruling on the play that said that once possession changed hands, the Balt. offensive unit on the field became the defensive unit and therefore, it considered the score a defensive unit TD.

 

While I may or may not agree with this logic, it is how the NFL has looked at these plays in the past and my leagues always follow what the NFL rules. Like was Vick's 2nd Int. and int or a fumble? The ruling was a Int., but it really was a fumble.

 

Therefore, I say the Bears Def. gets credit for the fumble recovery.

 

I would suggest visiting the NFL.com site and see if they have made an announcement on this play and use whatever they say.

[keggerz]

we went through this before, and NO, it is not points for the Chicago D

 

imagine if Thomas Jones recovered the fumble for a TD, you wouldn't give it to Chicago D then right?

 

1225672[/snapback]

 

 

 

you mean like a couple of yrs ago when Keenan McCardle recovered a Fumble from the guy that made the interception and McCardle went on to score a TD that was scored as a TB DEF TD

 

The D did not make the recovery, thus the D does not get any points.

 

1225742[/snapback]

 

 

 

Technically the Bears were a defensive unit once the ball was intercepted

 

 

Turkey is right.

 

And the scoring systems usually don't allow for an individual offensive player to benefit from recovering a fumble.  Anyway it would be for the individual offensive player and not the D unit.

 

1225765[/snapback]

 

 

 

 

it should be scored for the DEF unless you have a specific rule written to cover this...some of the leagues i know of have a "McCardell Rule"

Very good point.  Sorry if this has been brought up.  Trying to get this headache resolved as quickly as possible.

 

1225786[/snapback]

 

 

 

its not a clear cut area and you wont make everyone happy but remember you will be setting a precedent when you make your rulling

 

oh and I am not saying I agree that an offense becomes the def when there is an interception but that is how it is looked at but under that assumption....

 

when a DEF Player INTERCEPTS or RECOVERS a Fumble they are technically then OFFENSIVE PLAYERS so looking at it that way means there should never be a DEF TD

 

You can always use other websites to back you up. I know that Fanball did not count is as a fumble. That point about Thomas Jones is a great point. . . . .

 

It sucks being the commish at times. But you have facts that will back up your decision.

 

1225789[/snapback]

 

 

 

[Grits and Shins]

The Chicago defensive/special teams unit drafted by your owner was NOT on the field and as such do NOT get credit for a turnover.

[TDExpress]

I'd have to ask the question: In your league who gets credit for a fumble on a kickoff or punt? If these points go to the Defense than the fumble recovery by the Bears O should be credited to the Defense.

 

We had a similar problem in our league a couple years back so we went to the format (after current season was done) that any turnovers in the game and/or touchdowns on special teams are credited to the defense. This does take away from WR that are PR and KR but once it is in the rules the whinning went away.

[WorstCoachingEver]

I'd have to ask the question: In your league who gets credit for a fumble on a kickoff or punt?  If these points go to the Defense than the fumble recovery by the Bears O should be credited to the Defense.

 

1226024[/snapback]

 

 

 

 

Doesn't apply. That's a special teams play. You draft/acquire the D/ST, thus the points gained/lose alaways go to the defense.

[WorstCoachingEver]

when a DEF Player INTERCEPTS or RECOVERS a Fumble they are technically then OFFENSIVE PLAYERS  so looking at it that way means there should never be a DEF TD 

 

1226006[/snapback]

 

 

 

 

Good point. The fact this involves our Super Bowl is causing an uproar, we have a split 50-50 in the league voting (4 playoff teams abstaining, including myself).

[Grits and Shins]

This is the rule we adopted after the McCardell incident several years ago

 

• Defense / Special Teams can only be awarded points if they are on the field when the ball is snapped.

• Fumble recoveries and fumble recovery touchdowns made by the team that was on offense when the ball was snapped will NOT be credited to the team that started the play on defense, regardless of the number of times the ball changed possessions.

• The offensive player that recovered the fumble:

• Will NOT be awarded 2 points for a fumble recovery.

• Will be awarded 6 points for any TD he scores as a result of the fumble recovery.

• Will NOT receive yardage points for the yardage on the play if the NFL deems them to be “fumble return yardage”.

[PhinsFan13]

My opinion of it is this, and I agree with those who say it shouldn't be credited to the Defense. An offensive player recovered a fumble from a Defensive player. It should not be credited to the Defense. The only defense that should be credited with any points is Atlanta's D for an INT.

 

Also, it was an interception for the Bears D. The receiver never had possession of the ball, and the ball never touched the ground. just like a tipped pass, it's an interception. I was at the game last night, and live it looked like an INT. After seeing it on the big screens at Soldier Field and later on ESPN, it definately was an INT.

 

And yes, it was #$%^& cold out!!

 

Good luck to all of you that advanced in the playoffs.

 

Another thing I just thought of, if an Atlanta player recovered the fumble, would their defense be credited with an INT AND a fumble recovery? I don't think so. So points should have not gone to the Bears Def.

Edited December 19, 2005 by PhinsFan13

[WorstCoachingEver]

Thanks for all your help.

 

Per the league rules, we had a league vote on the issue (Myself, the assist commish, and the 2 parties involved abstained as it affected our matchups).

 

Went 5-3 that the Defense should NOT get credit for the fumble. Of course, it caused utter hell and the afflicted party screamed bloody murder and accused me of having an influence on the voting process.

[KCRob23]

It happened it the Indy/SD game too! The Colts fumbled and the Chargers recovered it and then fumbled it back, CBS recorded that as a DFR for the Colts. I was pissed, but since I won by 40 I didn't say anything, but CBS needs to correct that!