Is Vick overrated?

[Guest jgcoach]

I don't remember monster #'s in 2002 consistantly from Vick. He did have his couple of days but I also remember some bad games. Just about on par with any NFL QB. Can he become an NFL or FF star? If magazine covers and praise from the press is the measuring stick then he already has. For me he has played a very short time and will be drafted as a player with great upside but hasn't proven himself yet. I wouldn't draft him ahead of any tried and true QB's until he's played a season. A WHOLE SEASON. As a running back Fragile Freddy still has the stigma of great upside but don't draft him high because of the injury factor, and he's been through two seasons without getting hurt. What makes Vick any different?

[The Vatican Hitsquad]

jgcoach

Can he become an NFL or FF star? If magazine covers and praise from the press is the measuring stick then he already has. For me he has played a very short time and will be drafted as a player with great upside but hasn't proven himself yet.

Exactly my point, and Fred Taylor is a great example.

[bboru]

phenom:

Blah blah blah ...yadda yadda yadda...bloblity blah blah

phenom-onously-floolish you are a tool. Try to build your house of cards as high as you want, but fact remains that you were owned. Give it up.

 

When you count brass tacks rating a QB comes down to one of two methods. I like to think of the the Joe Montana vs the Dan Marino methods. The Joe Montana is highly endorsed by Al Davis and can also be called the Just Win Baby. These QB's might not have the best skills, but they lead their teams to wins over and over and pile up the Championships. The other method is the Dan Marino method, aka My Gun is Bigger and Badder then Yours. These QB's pile up the stats left and right. They may never get to the big show (aka Dan Fouts).

 

On neither of these scales has Vick produced anything yet. And though you can say that Def Coordinators are scared of him, he's not shown the endurance to make that fear last more then a few games a season. Perhaps in a few years he'll warrant being called the next best thing to QB's, but till then he's just the latest Slash incarnation.

[bboru]

phenom:

 

You name me 1 QB in the NFL that can do that or has done that. You probably will skip this part and not answer. Vick can do what no other QB can it's as simple as that.

phenom:

But then when I asked you about who in the NFL can do what he does you bring up a relic from the past. Randall Cunningham? When I said in the NFL I'm talking in the now; like current players.

phenom, The Huddle's Official backtrack boy. Dude you need to read what you type before you backtrack. You asked and got handed facts. Then you change the parameters to the question. You sure you aren't a Bill Clinton Staff member?

 

If this was a Honeymooners episode, this would be where Ralph Kramden starts blubbering "hammana hammana hammana"

 

LOL

[Chavez]

phenom

 

A bad team is a bad team, regardless of their record in a stadium or MNF(speaking from personal Raider experience). GB was limping into the playoffs, hardly a force at that time. They were dead team walking.

 

Whatever that means. The Packers had won 4 of their last 5 games before that game against the Falcons. Not exactly a dead team since they also had 6 pro bowlers that year or maybe they were they all injured for that playoff game.

 

Wappinger's assessment is correct - that team was banged up; their depth was SHOT, and overall they were running on fumes. Their C was playing LT, both their starting OTs were out, Marco Rivera was playing on a bum knee, their DL was hammered by injury. When your lines are messed up, it's tough to win games.

 

The 4 of 5 was a bit deceptive as well - their last 2 games were a squeaker over a middling Bills teams and an absolute pantsing at the hands of the Jets.

[Chavez]

As for the issue with Jamal Anderson and Chris Chandler vs Micheal Vick, that was a smart-ass comment by me and I don't really regard it as some sort of line of argument that should be given too much credence.

[BS Miscreant]

I think Vicks is highly overrated. They make a good vapo-rub and cough drops but NICE gives you much better flavor options and you can never get too much vitamin C.

[phenom]

The Wappinger Raiders:

I say he is WAY overrated for all the fawning over him as the best athelete in the game, one of the best qb's , blah blah blah.

You asked the question and it really sounds like a lot of hating to me. Like I said he's doing things no other QB is doing or has done. Google does go both ways.

 

http://www.atlantafalcons.com/team/001/429/

 

Named to the Pro Bowl to become only the sixth quarterback to be voted to the NFL All-Star game in his first year as a starter since 1970, joining Dan Marino of Miami (1983), Brett Favre of Green Bay (1992), Kurt Warner of St. Louis (1999), Daunte Culpepper of Minnesota (2000) and Tom Brady of New England (2001)

 

I guess this is nothing special, just did something that John Elway, Joe Montana, Steve Young, Randall Cunningham, Peyton Manning and others haven't done.

 

Called the “most electrifying and exciting player in the NFL” by his peers and media throughout the League last year

 

Now the media may be overzealous but you can't deny that the players in the league who actually face him don't feel that he is a special player. Well lets get back to the facts and away from conjecture.

 

Established four new NFL records in 2002, including most rushing yards in a game by a quarterback with 173 yards at Minnesota (12/1) to shatter a 51 year-old mark…

 

4 new records. Let's repeat that 4 new records. Yep 4 and he broke a 51 year old record. So no other QB including Randall Cunningham have has done what Vick has. Nothing more to say about that. Let's get more facts.

 

Has run for more yards in his first two seasons (1,066) than any quarterback in NFL history

 

More than any other QB in NFL history. Hmmmm no other QB huh? Well I'm sure you can google somebody up right?

 

Okay about that Packer playoff game. You know Chavez you disappoint me by minimizing how difficult it is and has been to win in Green Bay particularly in the playoffs. They had never lost a home playoff game in the Packers 82 year history. That's a pretty long time, I guess all those other Packer teams were at full stregnth in the playoff's. Must have just been bad luck for the Packers when the faced Vick that day.

 

Some other reasons why he may be "hyped" by the media:

 

He captured the first-ever Archie Griffin Award as college football Player of the Year as a (redshirt) freshman that season when he led the nation in passing efficiency at 180.37, the second-highest total ever and guided the Hokies to a perfect 11-0 regular season record.

 

He set an NCAA record for a freshman in the process and established single-season school records for highest yards passing per completion (20.4), per attempt (12.1), highest completion % (59.2) and most yards per play (9.3).

 

He finished third in the balloting for the coveted Heisman Trophy (matching the highest finish ever by a freshman), while coming away with the hardware for Big East Conference Offensive and Rookie of the Year and finished runner-up in voting for the Associated Press Player of the Year. He became the first player in Division I history to win a league’s Player of the Year Award in the same season he won Rookie of the Year.

 

 

He is only 24 years old lets not forget. Just turned it a month ago.

 

One thing I would like to know is you say he is overrated. So you think there is a more athletic player in the league? Name one who can throw the ball 70 yards and run a 4.2 40.

 

You asked the question remember:

 

I wanna believe, I do... help me obi won kenobi, you're my only hope...

 

Yeah sounds like you really want to. Maybe you should just keep watching old Star Wars movies.........

[I Like Soup]

I'm with Vatican on this. thumbs_u

 

What he said.

[Big Score 1]

Wappinger // The Vatican Hitsquad

 

Take a look at what Vick did with last years pathetic 2 win Falcons team.

 

When he finally got back full time under center, starting week 14 against the likes of Carolina, Indy, Tampa & Jacksonville, the 2 & 10 Falcons had a nice little run.

 

With Vick back at the helm, they reeled off 3 wins out of those four match ups.

 

This included a typical Vick game against the eventual Superbowl runner up, Carolina.

 

179 yd passing, 1 Td, No Ints & 141 rushing, 1 TD in an Overtime victory.

 

Don't forget, by the time Vick came back, the Falcons had lost a key weapon for Vick to utilize, in Warrick Dunn & were dealing with the Head Coach turmoil of Reeves resigning.

 

So to recap.

 

12 games without Vick = 2 wins.

 

4 games with Vick, but now without Dunn & a stop gap Lame Duck Head Coach = 3 wins.

 

Then take a look at what Vick did the year before when he played a full season as the Falcons QB.

 

Hmmmmmm........considering what he's accomplished when under center and what he's had to work with, I don't think you can really say he's overrated.

 

Can't go back any further, because that's all we've got to go on NFL wise. He was pretty much on the bench his rookie year.

 

But if you wish to think he's overrated, that's most certainly your prerogative.

[BS Miscreant]

Is Vick overrated? The Vatican Hitsquad

 

I'm not sure. What's he rated?

[phenom]

BS Miscreant:

Is Vick overrated? The Vatican Hitsquad

 

I'm not sure.  What's he rated?

Vatcian hasn't rated him at all. He just says he's overrated but not anything else. And the only reason that he gives for Vick being overrated is that he got injured not that he isn't a top QB when he is on the field.

 

Also that wasn't an article it was the same exact thing you got Randall Cunningham references from. It was just a report on his accomplishments he has had in his careeer and your mad at that! Funny and you're trying to be convinced by Obi wan Kenobi.

 

I have given you reasons why Vick is celebrated by his peers and the media. If it isn't good enough for you that's your deal. You just have to deal with it because it isn't going to stop............ thinking

[The Vatican Hitsquad]

I have said a few times in the course of this thread that he was good, will PROBABLY repeat these numbers and he WON'T washout (go back and read my posts). What I have said over an dover again, is for what he HAS done, it does NOT rank up there in the top 3-4 QBs in the league. But if you read the mags, what the crappy shoes from spammers commercials and listen to ESPN, you think the game had never seen a QB like him ever...

 

I think he's good, not great. You can't call him great untill he does this kind of thing a few years in a row and proves he's the real deal, not Slash v 2.0. Otherwise, he had a great season and that's it. Give me Manning, McNair, Cullpepper or McNabb any day.

 

I got my Cunningham refs from a Sports Illustrated article and a Football Guys article, both which state facts and stats about both players, let alone my point of view. Your article was on Atlanta's site, who of course is always goign to objectively sell their hottest player. I guess this proves that you never did read that story on Football Guys that I gave you a link to. Believe what you want, though.

 

I am far from mad, believe me. In fact, your really pretty funny (unintentionally, I'm sure) and I'm enjoying this...

 

I'll deal with it when Vick racks up a CAREER, not a season. Until then...

[phenom]

The problem here is you haven't been clear enough. You say Vick is overrated.

 

Rating definition: A quantity measured with respect to another measured quantity. I don't know how you rank players but I don't rank them based on their career or playoff wins. I rank a player on their current level of play and potential. Yes, potential, not past accomplishments.

 

You want Manning, Mcnair, Culpepper or Mcnabb over Vick. Fine but other than Manning I think the rankings can go in any order.

 

Mcnabb - This is funny that you think Mcnabb isn't an injury risk. He had that bad ankle injury that finished his 2002 season. He also sustained a rib injury in the playoff's last year so he hasn't worked out in the offseason the way he should.

 

http://www.rotoworld.com/content/playerpag...guenum=&id=4650

 

A sore throwing shoulder forced McNabb to sit out the final organized team practice before the start of next month's training camp.

McNabb was not able to work out as usual this offseason because of rib injuries that he suffered in the NFL Championship. Combined with his sore shoulder, he's a bigger injury risk than usual this season.

 

Oh yeah let's talk about last year.

 

http://www.footballguys.com/04spotlight_do...novanmcnabb.htm

 

Donovan McNabb began last season in a funk. Over the first half of the season, he wasn't just bad, at times he was awful. Through Week 8 last season, McNabb had not had a game with 200 yards passing and stood with 3 TD passes and 7 interceptions. Many of the Eagles faithful were calling for a QB change after McNabb bottomed out against the Giants--and he fell to last in league QB rating.

 

And we all remember the controversey about Rush Limbaugh's comments about Mcnabb. Politically correct or not Mcnabb has a lot to prove.

 

 

Daunte Culpepper - I like Daunte as a FF QB; he's #1 on my board. However his ability to lead the Vikings anywhere is highly in question. He lead the team to worst collapse in the NFL since 1978. How do you go 6-0 and not make the playoff's? Culpepper has taken his team to the playoff's once in 6 years (3 years ago) and has the indignity of getting blown out 41-0 by the Giants. He also seems to get questioned by Vikings fans and media on how good he really is. Last year when Gus Frerrote came in weeks 4 and 5 for an injured Culpepper he threw well. I mean how hard is it to throw to Randy Moss. His decision making is nowhere near the top QB's in the game.

 

 

Steve Mcnair - He's going on his 10th year in the league and the first 6 years he sucked. Eddie George carried the Tit's; not Mcnair. In those 6 years he never threw for more than 15 TD's and he only threw for over 3,000 yards once. Which isn't saying anything in of itself. Injuries, he's a walking injury, granted he does play but out of 9 years he's only played every game 4 times. Plus who knows how much better he could be if he wasn't injured all the time. As far as the postseason it took Steve 5 years to make it to the postseason.

 

 

Manning does appear to have it all. Durability, makes good decisions with the ball (well against everyone except against Bill Belichik), good arm and has lead his team to the playoff's. However he has had the knock of not being able to win the big game. I've heard a number of players say Manning can't win the big game and so far he's proven them right.

 

 

If you get picky (like you obviously are) you can show that any QB is overrated...........

[Big Score 1]

The Vatican Hitsquad:

What I have said over and over again, is for what he HAS done, it does NOT rank up there in the top 3-4 QBs in the league.

Actually lets take a look at this statement.

 

In Vicks very first year as the starting QB for his team, he took the Falcons to a 9-6-1 record.

 

Now lets compare that accomplishment to your guys:

The Vatican Hitsquad:

Give me Manning, McNair, Cullpepper or McNabb any day.

In Manning's very first year as the starting QB for his team, he took the Colts to a 3-13 record.

 

In McNair's very first year as the starting QB for his team, he took the Oilers to a 8-8 record.

 

In McNabbs's very first year as the starting QB* for his team, he took the Eagles to a 11-5 record.

 

*McNabb actually started 6 games the previous season, so he has a leg up NFL experience wise, on all the other QB's we're looking at.*

 

In Culpeppers's very first year as the starting QB for his team, he took the Vikings to a 11-5 record.

 

So if we compare Vick's first year to your four guys and their first years, he out preformed two of them.

 

And again look at what Vick did last year, once he got back under center.

 

Vick took a miserable 2-10 team and rolled off 3 wins out of the last four games, to finish out the Falcons season. He did this against some decent D's as well; Carolina, Indy, Tampa & Jacksonville.

 

Vick accomplished those 3 wins, without the services of a key offensive weapon in Dunn and operating under a Lame Duck interim Head Coach.

 

So in Vick's opportunities under center, he's delivered the goods and there's no denying that fact.

 

 

The Vatican Hitsquad:

I'll deal with it when Vick racks up a CAREER, not a season. Until then...

Now if you're using the argument that he's overrated because you don't feel there's enough data to support the hype, well...conversely you can't be totally comfortable with your statement...because there's not enough data to support that rationale either.

[sixxgunn]

Well hell,FOOTBALL players are overrated.Just some more so than others.Vick being one of them.I actually want him to succeed,because it's like the equivelent of the NBA with Jordan,and the NFL when Favre was still ruling the roost.It just flat out makes it more fun to watch.But point being,he has been already crowned King QB of the football universe,and hasn't earned it yet.Play a few seasons,put up consistent numbers and we'll talk in '07 if Vick is overrated.But in '04,well,yes...he is.

[The Vatican Hitsquad]

Of course Vick doesn't have stats to equal the other players, because they have been doing it longer. It takes YEARS of a QB (and player) playing to prove he is the real deal before he can be lifted out of the "great season" category and moved into the "great QB" category. Why is Vick any different?

 

AGAIN... he had a great season (I don't think you'll find a single post of me denying this)... but that's all he had-1 season. The other QB's may not have started as strong in their careers (since not many even started initially, like McNair), but look what they have done over time... a few years into their careers, they are great QBs. McNair plays hurt all the time, and the team desperately needs him. McNabb threw 4 TD s on a broken ankle. Favre... well, we all know what Brett does. That's toughness and leadership.

 

Hell, Tommy Maddox had a great season, what happened to him the next year? That is my point, with just one single great season behind him, let him prove it. Like Elway did (it would take him till the final 2 seasons of his career until people believed he was great) or Manning (it would take a playoff win before he moved into that category). He's no Favre yet, so any talk of his greatness is premature and hype.

[The Vatican Hitsquad]

 

.It just flat out makes it more fun to watch.But point being,he has been already crowned King QB of the football universe,and hasn't earned it yet.Play a few seasons,put up consistent numbers and we'll talk in '07 if Vick is overrated.But in '04,well,yes...he is.

...that is exactly what I mean.

[Mr A]

Seems to me that the only real argument from this thread so far, for Vick being overrated, is not at all based on what he has actually done.

 

Because there's absolutely no denying that he has been an excellent QB for the Falcons, when he's played.

 

Bottom line in the NFL is where the check mark is placed in the W - L column. When Vick plays, there's a lot more checks beside the W, than there are beside the L. End of story.

 

Instead, the argument for Vick being overrated, is based on what he hasn't done.

 

It's the cautious mentality of...."Yeah, when he's played he's been awesome for the Falcons, but I just don't think I've seen enough yet. You know, he just might be a flash in the pan or he could suffer a career ending injury."

 

For the people who submit to that philosophy, there's absolutely nothing inherently wrong in that train of thought.

 

Some people have the mindset where they're happy with a safe solid single, when the bases are loaded.

 

Others have more of the gambler mindset, a swing for the fences grand slam, all or nothing type.

 

So, which philosophy is right?

 

Which philosophy is wrong?

 

Truth is, there is no right or wrong here, it's just the differences in peoples personal make up.

 

Some are cautious, some are gamblers and that's all there is to it.

 

The ones clamoring that Vick's overrated, are the cautious type.

 

The equally voracious zealots, proclaiming Vick to be the Michael Jordan of the NFL, are the gamblers.

 

I don't think either camps mindset will be swayed one way or the other.

 

Personally, I'm a swing for the fences type.

 

Vick is Da Bomb!

 

He'll re-write the record books before his career is over and he's already started.

[The Vatican Hitsquad]

excellent points, all of which i agree with...

 

untl that end part, though...

 

wink

[sixxgunn]

That was probably the most coherent thought on the subject yet,Mr A! applause I really hope he does go on to have a stellar career.Just wanted to give a thumbs_u for that post.

[Big Score 1]

This thread was started before this season began. Now that we're three quarters of the way through the season, I thought I'd ressurecte it to get peoples views now.

 

Has anybody changed their opinion?

 

For people who didn't think he was overrated, do you still feel the same now?

 

For people who felt he was overrated, still feel that way?

[Caveman_Nick]

FWIW, he is the 10th best player in FF for the last 6 weeks, and the 8th best QB in terms of total points. In PPG, he is the fifth highest overall player behind Manning and McNabb (of course), Brees and Plummer (who NOBODY picked to have this great of a season).

 

If I were heading into my fantasy playoffs starting Vick, I would head there with confidence. I don't put Brees and Plummer as Tier 1 QBs, but I put Vick there.

[Avernus]

FWIW, he is the 10th best player in FF for the last 6 weeks, and the 8th best QB in terms of total points.  In PPG, he is the fifth highest overall player behind Manning and McNabb (of course), Brees and Plummer (who NOBODY picked to have this great of a season).

 

If I were heading into my fantasy playoffs starting Vick, I would head there with confidence.  I don't put Brees and Plummer as Tier 1 QBs, but I put Vick there.

 

590474[/snapback]

 

 

 

 

 

you rate Vick ahead of Brees at this point?

 

 

explain....I have both of them on one of my fantasy teams and don't know which one to ride the rest of the way....

 

just looking for food for thought type of stuff..

[phenom]

Probably not going to get too many responses back to this one Avernus but I think everyone knows where I stand!

 

As far as the comparison to Brees and Vick I have to say I rate them about the same with a lean to Vick because of the rushing. Brees has a few better weapons in Gates and LT so he shouldn't have a problem scoring. Vick sometimes gives away his TD's to the rushing game also.

 

That's a tough call............