detlef Posted May 24, 2007 Share Posted May 24, 2007 and im overwhelmed by the mounds of facts that the libs have provided supporting their argument. show me anything written by a non lefty helping your argument. you can not. all you guys keep crying about is big oil. the big bad oil companies. wah wah wah. show me facts!!!!!! u can lead horses to water.......now drink!!!!!!! Your powers of perception are laughable. Ouija posted an article from the AP that showed Bush didn't want to take a hard stance vs OPEC and preferred "negotiations" (how 'bout that for irony). Then you blamed the shortage on libs and a lack of refineries. Well friend, the burden of proof lies with you. You're the one taking the stance, not us. You say libs are to blame, we say everyone is to blame. You bring up OP Ed after OP Ed and call them facts, we remind you that they're not facts and provide equally compelling and backed up (mind you, we don't actually have to back them up to make them "equally backed up") arguments. The ball has been in your court the entire time, so until you bring up one truly substantial shred of fact to back up you assertions, we can just shoot spit wads at you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AtomicCEO Posted May 24, 2007 Share Posted May 24, 2007 your notion that big oil didnt build more refineries so they could charge more is poppycock Specifically... are you challenging the notion that having less refined gas makes gas cost more, resulting in higher profits? Or are you challenging the idea that Big Oil isn't operating at the capacity they could by investing a slightly larger portion of their massive profits in refineries? I mean... it makes pretty good business sense... why spend money on something which will ultimately cost you profits? I totally understand the motivation to do it... but you say that it isn't true. Why do you think they aren't building refineries again? Think it out. Bounce an idea off me, and I'll give it critical analysis. I'm not clear on your position, dmarc. I want to understand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yo mama Posted May 24, 2007 Share Posted May 24, 2007 (edited) and im overwhelmed by the mounds of facts that the libs have provided supporting their argument. show me anything written by a non lefty helping your argument. you can not. all you guys keep crying about is big oil. the big bad oil companies. wah wah wah. show me facts!!!!!! u can lead horses to water.......now drink!!!!!!! I'm former in-house counsel to "big oil." Please remind me, what are your credentials on this issue? Edited May 24, 2007 by yo mama Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dmarc117 Posted May 24, 2007 Share Posted May 24, 2007 I'm former in-house counsel to "big oil." Please remind me, what are your credentials on this issue? my massive iq Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cre8tiff Posted May 24, 2007 Share Posted May 24, 2007 I'm former in-house counsel to "big oil." Please remind me, what are your credentials on this issue? pwned!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dmarc117 Posted May 24, 2007 Share Posted May 24, 2007 (edited) pwned!! have yet to see any facts from him.... Edited May 24, 2007 by dmarc117 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yo mama Posted May 24, 2007 Share Posted May 24, 2007 (edited) have yet to see any facts from him.... Fact: the refining process provides oil and gas companies paper-thin margins. That's not where they make their money. Fact: building new refineries requires massive capital investment. Fact: increaseing environmental regulations over the last 20 years have made both refining profit margins, and cost of building new refineries, even more expensive. Ergo, the main reason the USA hasn't built new refineries in the last 20 is because it wasn't all that profitable to do so. Edited May 24, 2007 by yo mama Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexgaddis Posted May 24, 2007 Share Posted May 24, 2007 Fact: Wasting 5 pages arguing with Dmarc is just silly...he's a momo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dmarc117 Posted May 24, 2007 Share Posted May 24, 2007 Fact: increaseing environmental regulations over the last 20 years have made both refining profit margins, and cost of building new refineries, even more expensive. and which side is responsible for these increasing regulations and loopholes? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bushwacked Posted May 24, 2007 Share Posted May 24, 2007 Fact: Wasting 5 pages arguing with Dmarc is just silly...he's a momo Fact: Watching Dmarctard posting simplisitic twit-like soundbytes and getting crushed by the adults in the deep end of the pool provides entertainment, so I hope he sticks around. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yo mama Posted May 24, 2007 Share Posted May 24, 2007 (edited) and which side is responsible for these increasing regulations and loopholes? The people who think things like liveable air quality are more important than saving twenty-five cents a gallon. If you can't afford the price of gas, then take the bus. Edited May 24, 2007 by yo mama Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dmarc117 Posted May 24, 2007 Share Posted May 24, 2007 Fact: Watching Dmarctard posting simplisitic twit-like soundbytes and getting crushed by the adults in the deep end of the pool provides entertainment, so I hope he sticks around. take off the water wings and join me in staying afloat without welfare Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dmarc117 Posted May 24, 2007 Share Posted May 24, 2007 The people who think liveable air quality is more important than saving twenty-five cents a gallon. If you can't afford the price of gas, then take the bus. i havent bitched once about the price of gas, doesnt bother me at all. the libs seem to complain about everything, yet dont have the balls to fix the problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wiegie Posted May 24, 2007 Author Share Posted May 24, 2007 I have no idea whether or not oil companies collude, but I do know that if they can/do collude, it would be profit-maximizing for them to not build new refineries and therefore produce less than the efficient quantity of gasoline and charge higher prices than would occur if the markets were competitive. (it would be my a priori guess that they don't collude because if they did, somebody would have already been all over it) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yo mama Posted May 24, 2007 Share Posted May 24, 2007 I have no idea whether or not oil companies collude, but I do know that if they can/do collude, it would be profit-maximizing for them to not build new refineries and therefore produce less than the efficient quantity of gasoline and charge higher prices than would occur if the markets were competitive. (it would be my a priori guess that they don't collude because if they did, somebody would have already been all over it) The collusion that I'm aware of didn't take place in the context of refining. (Though, there were plenty of iffy things going on in that area, mostly in the form of cheating on what was considered tax-exempt fuel). The collusion I saw occured within the trading of oil and gas capacity in connection with the deregulated spot market. States like CA got screwed, but part of that was because their state laws on deregulations were the equivilent of dropping the soap in a prison shower. Other states, like Pennsyvania and to a lesser extent Texas, did a better job with their deregulation, which left them less vulnerable to collusion. However, to my knowledge, no collusion has been proven within the context of failing to build new refineries. Big Oil has been sued in CA a number of times on that issue, and has never lost a case. However, while choosing not to build new refineries because it costs may not amount to collussion, the failure to do so still rests primarily on the shoulders of Big Oil. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AtomicCEO Posted May 25, 2007 Share Posted May 25, 2007 My only argument was that It is the oil companies decisions to not build, repair, or upgrade refineries that is a major contributor to higher gas prices. But dmarc said that wasn't true. Despite the fact that... well... it is. He probably thought I was trying to imply that Big Oil was evil. I wasn't. (Even though they probably are). So... in a country like ours, we can choose to elect people who make legislation that somehow motivates oil companies to upgrade/build/repair refineries. Or, if that doesn't work, we could just decide that oil is a necessary commodity to the security of our nation, and nationalize it. I only suggest this to scare the crap out of oil companies, though. I don't think it'll happen unless their motivation for profit starts to severely hurt the economy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ursa Majoris Posted May 25, 2007 Share Posted May 25, 2007 Idiot should probably Google Jeb Bush drilling Florida.....tell you what, I'll do it for you. With his brother, Gov. Jeb Bush, looking on, President Bush sealed a deal Wednesday to prevent further oil and gas drilling off the white sand beaches of the Florida Gulf Coast and in the cypress swamps near the Everglades. The unexpected announcement would require the federal government to repurchase $235 million worth of oil and gas leasing rights in the Destin Dome area, about 25 miles south of Pensacola, and in three wildlife areas including Big Cypress National Preserve. Jeb Bush acknowledged that the Oval Office announcement would boost his re-election campaign in Florida, the swing state in the 2000 presidential election and a tourism mecca where polls show 75 percent oppose offshore drilling. So Bush is a liberal, yes? Link So anyway, DMarc, about these whiny libs? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dmarc117 Posted May 25, 2007 Share Posted May 25, 2007 So Bush is a liberal, yes? Link So anyway, DMarc, about these whiny libs? Jeb Bush acknowledged that the Oval Office announcement would boost his re-election campaign in Florida, the swing state in the 2000 presidential election and a tourism mecca where polls show 75 percent oppose offshore drilling. they arent libs silly, but they did win http://www.sun-herald.com/newsarchivestory...er=newsarchive2 Bush plan would allow Gulf drilling The Bush Administration plans to allow oil and gas drilling within 100 miles of Florida's Gulf Coast. The plan has Florida's two senators at loggerheads, while Florida Gov. Jeb Bush appears to be sitting out the latest fight over eastern Gulf drilling. "The Department of the Interior and the Bush White House are planning to open up Florida's coastline for a significant number of new leases to the oil and gas industry in the next five-year leasing plan," said Mark Ferrulo, executive director of Florida Public Interest Research Group. 5/5/05 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AtomicCEO Posted May 25, 2007 Share Posted May 25, 2007 I want to say this slower, dmarc: Having... more... oil... will not... dramatically... affect... the... price... of... gas. Our gas prices.... always... rise... due to... refinery problems... If we drilled the Gulf and ANWR, oil prices would change by an estimated 1-5%. This would have NO affect on gas prices whatsoever. So... would you like to change your story again? One of the tenets of critical thinking is putting stuff in your own words. Make an argument here that doesn't quote anyone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dmarc117 Posted May 25, 2007 Share Posted May 25, 2007 I want to say this slower, dmarc: Having... more... oil... will not... dramatically... affect... the... price... of... gas. Our gas prices.... always... rise... due to... refinery problems... If we drilled the Gulf and ANWR, oil prices would change by an estimated 1-5%. This would have NO affect on gas prices whatsoever. So... would you like to change your story again? One of the tenets of critical thinking is putting stuff in your own words. Make an argument here that doesn't quote anyone. do you read? i have said over and over again that refining capacity is the number 1 problem. the above quote was in response to something totally different. did u take your meds this morning?? i understand your capacity to think and retain is poor. you are just like the problem we have with gas prices. i supply enormous amounts of facts and information, yet you lack the capacity to understand it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perchoutofwater Posted May 25, 2007 Share Posted May 25, 2007 I want to say this slower, dmarc: Having... more... oil... will not... dramatically... affect... the... price... of... gas. Our gas prices.... always... rise... due to... refinery problems... If we drilled the Gulf and ANWR, oil prices would change by an estimated 1-5%. This would have NO affect on gas prices whatsoever. So... would you like to change your story again? One of the tenets of critical thinking is putting stuff in your own words. Make an argument here that doesn't quote anyone. If what you are saying is true, then suing OPEC will not accomplish anything either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perchoutofwater Posted May 25, 2007 Share Posted May 25, 2007 This problem is complex, and both sides need to stop their political crap and man up. We need more refineries, and we need more native crude. We should be drilling in ANWAR and on the continental shelf. We need to take a hard look at environmental restrictions to see if they really are effective and needed in some instances. You won't hear me complain about gas prices, of course gas around here is relatively cheap as there is a refinery about 10 miles from my house. To blame one side or another in this argument is just stupid. Both sides have had plenty of chances to deal with the situation, and both have lacked the intestinal fortitude to do so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheGrunt Posted May 25, 2007 Share Posted May 25, 2007 Our gas prices.... always... rise... due to... refinery problems... Define refinery "problems", please. This isn't unexpected that gas prices are rising again right before summer begins. This happens every single year. However, if you mean to say that the refinery problems are actually the oil companies doing "routine maintenance" for the summer, which is why the deeply routed oil demand continues to rise, then you are right. The demand for oil is rising primarily because the oil companies are choosing not to produce as much of it, but, probably also due partly to the fact that more people drive during the summer -- which is "ironically" the perfect time to produce less oil. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bushwacked Posted May 25, 2007 Share Posted May 25, 2007 You won't hear me complain about gas prices, of course gas around here is relatively cheap as there is a refinery about 10 miles from my house. I'm still waiting for Dmarctarded, with his infinite wisdom, to explain to me why my town has the highest gas prices in the state when we have 3 refineries in our county. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dmarc117 Posted May 25, 2007 Share Posted May 25, 2007 I'm still waiting for Dmarctarded, with his infinite wisdom, to explain to me why my town has the highest gas prices in the state when we have 3 refineries in our county. fact: you arent smart hypothesis: if your neighbors are as bright as you, those refineries are definitely not running at full capacity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts