TO sees no difference between dog fighting and hunting deer

[DKF]

Let me ask you a question, Mr. Tolerant. In some cultures, when a girl reaches puberty she is sexually mutilated by her tribe to prevent her from having sex. This is a cultural thing.

 

Would you tolerate this, Mr. Ghandi?

I personally do not condone this because I personally like my women to have orgasms. (even a blind squirel finds an occaisonal nut). But who am I to change their culture? Was not America founding on presonal and individual liberities as well as freedom from religion?

[STL Fan]

What tribe is this ? and how are they still around if they kill any chance of reproducing?

 

It involves removing the, um, external pleasurable part of a female's anatomy, but she retains her fertility. It is a cause that has been taken up by a number of Hollywood celebs lately, sort of a cause du jour, but it is indeed going on, and it is horrific. My point is that you can't allow a person to get away with something heinous just because they say it's cultural.

[DKF]

What tribe is this ? and how are they still around if they kill any chance of reproducing?

Its not to stop them from having sex, but to stop them from climaxing. The belief that if the woman cannot enjoy sex, they will be a faithful spouse. :shakesheadsadly:

[DKF]

It involves removing the, um, external pleasurable part of a female's anatomy, but she retains her fertility. It is a cause that has been taken up by a number of Hollywood celebs lately, sort of a cause du jour, but it is indeed going on, and it is horrific. My point is that you can't allow a person to get away with something heinous just because they say it's cultural.

Why? Who are we to say what someone else finds normal in their culture for a thousand years is now 'heinous' because we do not agree with it?

[STL Fan]

I personally do not condone this because I personally like my women to have orgasms. (even a blind squirel finds an occaisonal nut). But who am I to change their culture? Was not America founding on presonal and individual liberities as well as freedom from religion?

 

Game, set, match. If you are so much of a lunatic to allow any behavior that anyone calls cultural, you are not tolerant, you're ignorant. Our forefathers founded this country on freedom, true. But even they put limits on that freedom. When your freedom and "personal liberties" include doing something terrible to another human being, thats where you lose your rights.

 

If you really belive what you've posted here, (go back and read it) you're sick.

[dread]

Personally I neither support or condone dog figthing or hunting. I do however, understand that other people have different values than myself.

 

You comment about "Your argument is people either see things as black and white or shades of gray. That in itself is an all-or-nothing statement, basically black or white. " is not correct, because I am refering to one person in particular, not all people.

 

Not really, one of your previous quotes was very general:

 

What worries me the most is people that view the world as 'black or white' with no shades of grey in between.

[billay]

Sorry I didn;t have time for this one today...

[STL Fan]

And he's gone. Hopefully to a therapist.

[billay]

Do we really have to have this conversation again?

 

newsflash:

 

Some people don't like killing [fetuses] no matter how they are killed.

 

No one is going to agree to the others point.

 

[Murder] is illegal, [abortion] is NOT, so get over it.

[DKF]

Game, set, match. If you are so much of a lunatic to allow any behavior that anyone calls cultural, you are not tolerant, you're ignorant. Our forefathers founded this country on freedom, true. But even they put limits on that freedom. When your freedom and "personal liberties" include doing something terrible to another human being, thats where you lose your rights.

 

If you really belive what you've posted here, (go back and read it) you're sick.

Not what 'anyone' calls 'cultural'. I am refering to an existing cultural practice that has been going on for over a thousand years. Just because you, I, and about 5 billion other people find it morally reprehensible, does not give us the right to enforce our standards on them.

 

I do not believe that they have to right to come to a western nation and practice that culture, when there are laws against it in western nations. I believe that when you move to a new culture, you have an obligation to assimilate to that new culture (and sets of laws).

 

But we are refering to religious practices that have been going on for centuries in nations where there are no laws against it. Who are we (even if there are 5 billion we's) to enforce our beliefs on them. I find that point of view, equally reprehensible.

 

You change that practice, by positive engagement with that culture.

Edited September 7, 2007 by DKF

[Gdawg]

I do not believe that they have to right to come to a western nation and practice that culture, when there are laws against it in western nations. I believe that when you move to a new culture, you have an obligation to assimilate to that new culture (and sets of laws).

 

Wasn't what Vick did against our laws? He didn't even move here, he was raised here.

[STL Fan]

Not what 'anyone' calls 'cultural'. I am refering to an existing cultural practice that has been going on for over a thousand years. Just becuase you, I, and about 5 billion other people find it morally reprehensible, does not give us the right to enforce our standards on them.

 

I do not believe that they have to right to come to a western nation and practice that culture, when there are laws against it in western nations. I believe that when you move to a new culture, you have an olbigation to assimilate to that new culture (and sets of laws).

 

But we are refering to religious practices that have been going on for centuries in nations where there are no laws against it. Who are we (even if there are 5 billion we's) to enforce our beliefs on them. I find that point of view, equally reprehensible.

 

You change that practice, by positive engagement with that culture.

 

Dogfighting is not a religious practice, and this is a western civiliation, but you still say we have no right to "enforce" our beliefs on them? Being tolerant is fine, even admirable, but turning a blind eye to injustice is cowardly.

[LooGie]

We have plenty of people with pit bulls around here, and plenty of people that fight them. Yes its illegal. Yes its immoral. But it is part of the culture of certain socio-economic classes. Some people including also feel that hunting is immoral and that eating meat is immoral.That is their culture. The only difference is that one is illegal and the others are only a few years away from being illegal. That does not make Vick a heinous monster. Just a lousey QB.

 

That also doesn't make TO or Whoopi or anyone else wrong jsut because they do not share your (or anyone else's views).

 

 

It amazing the lack of comprehension that some people have by failing to understand the difference between justifying a sociopathic behavior and understanding a sociopathic behavior.

You're way off base here. Almost laughably off base. First off, hunting will not become illegal, and the fact that you obviously despise hunting/hunters won't change that. You're very biased here. And just to get it out of the way, I'm not a hunter.

 

But i would like to say, I understand, and agree that Dog fighting is a culture in certain areas. Alot of times, it's severely depressed or low income areas, due to the ease of obtaining dogs, and the lack of other entertainment. Plus, the easy money to be made.

 

Now, that does not make dog fighting (illegal or not) acceptable, just because some people have no feelings towards those animals, and view them as expendable. (And yes, the same can be said for hunting, but i will get to that) but it does mean that people will do it, regardless.

 

I think we can all agree that deer hunting the favorite comparison, when talking about "hunting", so i will use deer.

• Dog have been, and are now totally domesticated. Deer are not domesticated. They are placed in zoos sometimes, but so are whales, and pandas and many others, (and that may be considered immoral too)

• Fighting dogs have to be bred to be mean, evil and tough, so they are tortured, caged, humiliated and killed when they do not fit the bill. Deer are not

• Fighting dogs are so mean, they cannot breed, so they have to be raped, which also adds to the humiliation and torture, which makes them meaner. Deer do not need to be raped, of course.

• Fighting Dogs fight for the sport of man, and no other purpose. they are buried swiftly and secretly in a backyards. Deer (while being hunted, for the sport of man) provide meat, (immoral to some) and are revered as trophies (again, immoral to some, but very different fates between fight dogs, and deer)

I could go on and on (and i believe you are smart enough to know there are MANY differences between fighting dogs and hunting deer, and i believe your debate is more of the 'what makes it different TO MAN' than physical differences anyway) so i will discuss that.

 

Again, Dogs are domesticated, and fighting dogs is illegal anyway. 2 huge points that are basically the entire argument. The rest is a grey area. Perhaps humans hold hunting as not nearly as immoral as fighting dogs, because hunting is more common. (Like in the ancient times, it was not that big of a deal to stab somebody and throw them in the street for stealing, but denouncing the Gods was unheard of)

However, this grey area, has something in it that no one has approached. Actually, it has someone in it.

Those children, in those depressed areas have never said "Wow, I want to grow up to be like Earl the Trash collector." Earl the trash collector is not the "trash collector to the stars" and is not in the lime light, and does not make 130million dollars, nor will he ever. Earl is not a role model (Earl my be a great guy, and be a role model to those close to him, but he is not a role model to the general public) Earl is not a superstar on prime time, and he certainly isn't the most exciting player int the NFL.

 

Now, you may not care about Vick, and may just be debating dog fighting in general, and believe me, I have heard, and understand your point. I can even agree with you. But the "black and white" that you openly project is not there. It is not the same thing, and only when we step into the grey area, can Dog Fighting, and Deer Hunting be compared.

 

Now on to why Vick is a sociopath. Briefly.

• Knowlingly spreading herpes

• Using fake names to sleep with woman to hide his identity

• Flipping off the people that adore and love him and pay to see him (yes, the people he flipped off, did it to him first, however, dont argue that point, as it is moot)

• Blaming EVERYONE on his team for the team's failures, as their leader. Calling out his ENTIRE o-line on national radio and saying "cmon man, i'm only one person. they gotta block better" and the like)

• Funding, and actively partaking in Fighting, raping, torturing, and the killing of dogs, for a pure sadistic enjoyment, as he did not need the money, does not lack entertainment, and knew it was illegal

• Having no loyalty or sense of obligation to the franchise, or the league by partaking in those illegal activities. Felt he would not be caught, and was above the law

• (and I'm assuming, based on the evidence) Belived he could pay off law enforcement to turn their other cheek. Truly feels above the law.

So, you are way off base, and completely out of control. Stop assuming you are smarter than everyone, and assuming everyone else around you is ignorant, because, as I just PROVED, it is not the case.

 

I would like to apologize to everyone else, not only for his remarks, and behavior (as i'm sure he will not), but for the length of this post.

Edited September 7, 2007 by LooGie

[DKF]

Wasn't what Vick did against our laws? He didn't even move here, he was raised here.

Absolutely. He was aware of the laws and violated them, and is paying the price for that.

 

The only point of contention that people have is that some folks feel that what he did was heinous. And some people think that having been raised in a culture that condone's that actively, his actions (although illegal, and rightfully penalized), are really no worse that some actives that are legal in this country.

 

But it seems that some people in the Heinous camp, feel that any opinions other than theirs, is not correct and that the holders of those opinions, are equally heinous.

 

Hitler felt the same way.

[Big Score 1]

I hunt and it's not just for sport. It's also for managaing the herd, its for controlling the population, its for food, its for controlling diseases. You idiots never seize to amaze me. Yup I go out and I kill deer cause I'm a cruel cruel human being.

Yes but would you do an Ice T - Rutger Hauer?

[DKF]

Dogfighting is not a religious practice, and this is a western civiliation, but you still say we have no right to "enforce" our beliefs on them? Being tolerant is fine, even admirable, but turning a blind eye to injustice is cowardly.

I thought we were discussing female genital mutilation?

[SF409ers]

Why? Who are we to say what someone else finds normal in their culture for a thousand years is now 'heinous' because we do not agree with it?

 

Who are we? We are the United States of America and yes we had better speak up. According to your "logic" than we should just keep our mouth shut because in some parts of the world child prostitution / sex slavery is "normal", or exterminating certain groups of people due to their religious / social beliefs is "normal", or maybe if your logic was followed a hundred and fifty years ago we should have continued to allow slavery becasue it was "normal" for thousands of years. Obviously this thread has gone way of topic but after reading through it and your numerous posts trying to assert your wisdom and knowledge into everything from "socioeconomic" studies and to the mindset of our founding fathers I can't help but just call you out on your utter and complete BS!! Your statement quoted above is the epitome of the lack of substantive thought that is running rampant through the world today - IMHO

[STL Fan]

But it seems that some people in the Heinous camp, feel that any opinions other than theirs, is not correct and that the holders of those opinions, are equally heinous.

 

Hitler felt the same way.

 

Ahh, the last resort of the desparate. You must tolerate everything from everyone or you're Hitler. That sound you hear is the wind blowing away the last shred of whatever credibility you had left.

 

Enjoy your life. Tolerate everything, Even my right to think you're a whacko. Loogie, everyone, let's go, it's over. Nothin' to see here.

[Vet]

I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that TO was not speaking at a Mensa meeting when he made this analogy.

[DKF]

Who are we? We are the United States of America and yes we had better speak up. According to your "logic" than we should just keep our mouth shut because in some parts of the world child prostitution / sex slavery is "normal", or exterminating certain groups of people due to their religious / social beliefs is "normal", or maybe if your logic was followed a hundred and fifty years ago we should have continued to allow slavery becasue it was "normal" for thousands of years. Obviously this thread has gone way of topic but after reading through it and your numerous posts trying to assert your wisdom and knowledge into everything from "socioeconomic" studies and to the mindset of our founding fathers I can't help but just call you out on your utter and complete BS!! Your statement quoted above is the epitome of the lack of substantive thought that is running rampant through the world today - IMHO

 

Regarding slavery, you need to go back and read Article 1 Section 9 of the Constitution. Our Founding Fathers found a compromise by which slavery could be abolished by the govt. Just not before 1808.

[DKF]

Ahh, the last resort of the desparate. You must tolerate everything from everyone or you're Hitler. That sound you hear is the wind blowing away the last shred of whatever credibility you had left.

 

Enjoy your life. Tolerate everything, Even my right to think you're a whacko. Loogie, everyone, let's go, it's over. Nothin' to see here.

 

 

I do enjoy my life. And I do tolerate other people. I feel sorry for you if that offends you.

[DKF]

Who are we? We are the United States of America and .....

This is exactly why the rest of the world hates us. :shakeheadsadly:

Edited September 7, 2007 by DKF

[STL Fan]

This is exactly why the rest of the world hates us. :shakeheadsadly:

 

Don't take the bait, folks.

[tonorator]

hey DKF, instead of just riding the "if it feels good, do it" wave you are on, why don't you show some cajones and step up to condemn something when it's wrong. i don't even buy into this animal torture being part of some culture in the south. i can't recall any cultural fairs featuring this activity and i'm guessing that most in the south share in the disgust that this type of behaviour creates. chitcan the whole "enlightenment" trip you are on, you are are just sounding more and more like a big idiot.

[STL Fan]

hey DKF, instead of just riding the "if it feels good, do it" wave you are on, why don't you show some cajones and step up to condemn something when it's wrong. i don't even buy into this animal torture being part of some culture in the south. i can't recall any cultural fairs featuring this activity and i'm guessing that most in the south share in the disgust that this type of behaviour creates. chitcan the whole "enlightenment" trip you are on, you are are just sounding more and more like a big idiot.

 

Hitler!