TO sees no difference between dog fighting and hunting deer

[DKF]

hey DKF, instead of just riding the "if it feels good, do it" wave you are on, why don't you show some cajones and step up to condemn something when it's wrong. i don't even buy into this animal torture being part of some culture in the south. i can't recall any cultural fairs featuring this activity and i'm guessing that most in the south share in the disgust that this type of behaviour creates. chitcan the whole "enlightenment" trip you are on, you are are just sounding more and more like a big idiot.

I stated clearly that I do not condone dog fighting, hunting, or female gential mutilation.

 

And this is not entirely a southern culture. It is also a northeastern urban culture, and is found in many other areas as well.

 

What I said was just because someone breaks a law and does something that we may find morally bankrupt, that does not mean that that person is heinous. If in his culture that behavior is normal, then its only an illegal behavior.

 

It that concept really that difficult to understand?

Edited September 7, 2007 by DKF

[wirehairman]

Who are we? We are the United States of America and yes we had better speak up. According to your "logic" than we should just keep our mouth shut because in some parts of the world child prostitution / sex slavery is "normal", or exterminating certain groups of people due to their religious / social beliefs is "normal", or maybe if your logic was followed a hundred and fifty years ago we should have continued to allow slavery becasue it was "normal" for thousands of years. Obviously this thread has gone way of topic but after reading through it and your numerous posts trying to assert your wisdom and knowledge into everything from "socioeconomic" studies and to the mindset of our founding fathers I can't help but just call you out on your utter and complete BS!! Your statement quoted above is the epitome of the lack of substantive thought that is running rampant through the world today - IMHO

 

Regarding slavery, you need to go back and read Article 1 Section 9 of the Constitution. Our Founding Fathers found a compromise by which slavery could be abolished by the govt. Just not before 1808.

 

What about his other points?

 

Just becasue child prostitution and sex slavery in Southeast Asia have been "normal in their culture for a thousand years", I should not find it "heinous"?

 

Just becasue slavery in Africa has been "normal in their culture for a thousand years", I should not find it "heinous"?

[tonorator]

I stated clearly that I do not condone dog fighting, hunting, or female gential mutilation.

 

And this is not entirely a southern culture. It is also a northeastern urban culture, and is found in many other areas as well.

 

What I said was just because someone breaks a law and does something that we may find morally bankrupt, that does not mean that that person is heinous. If in his culture that behavior is normal, then its only an illegal behavior.

 

It that concept really that difficult to understand?

 

just because you find something somewhere, it does not mean that it is a part of the culture. is that so difficult to understand?

[SF409ers]

This is exactly why the rest of the world hates us. :shakeheadsadly:

 

Or do you mean why the rest of the world is grateful that we helped win 2 world wars, defeat communism throughout Europe and give trillions of dollars in releif aide all over the world and why we have millions of people from all over the world fighting to come to our country. "The rest of world hates us" - wether you like it or not we do have an ethical obligation to stand as a model for the world to follow. It is not by accident that the way our country works is prosperous and carries the load for the world - if the "rest of the world" does not like us so much and, people like you want us to mind our own business, than why continue to ask for our help, money, advice, etc. You can't say let us do it our way but please keep giving me help so I can continue to dig larger holes. Your statement shows the true lack of substanative thought I referred to in my last post - if you truly believe that it's all our fault than you have much to learn about world history, geopolitical rhetoric, and media bias'. Are you from Canada by chance??

[The Vatican Hitsquad]

Don't take the bait, folks.

 

You drop that warning NOW? Every post he has made was nothign more than a fishing trip.

 

No way is he that ignorant, can't be. That's why he ignored Loogie's entire post.

Edited September 7, 2007 by The Vatican Hitsquad

[LooGie]

just because you find something somewhere, it does not mean that it is a part of the culture. is that so difficult to understand?

you've got to be kidding.

 

sorry, wasn't talking to you on this one, but to whom you replied to

Edited September 7, 2007 by LooGie

[STL Fan]

I stated clearly that I do not condone dog fighting, hunting, or female gential mutilation.

 

And this is not entirely a southern culture. It is also a northeastern urban culture, and is found in many other areas as well.

 

What I said was just because someone breaks a law and does something that we may find morally bankrupt, that does not mean that that person is heinous. If in his culture that behavior is normal, then its only an illegal behavior.

It that concept really that difficult to understand?

 

OK, whacko, this is not at all what you said. The man's name barely came up in this thread, we were all talking about the act. And you were not defending him, you were defending the acts of dogfighting, and genital mutilation becase "who are we to 'enforce' our beliefs on someone? Careful you don't trip as you backpedal so quickly.

[Menudo]

hey DKF, instead of just riding the "if it feels good, do it" wave you are on, why don't you show some cajones and step up to condemn something when it's wrong. i don't even buy into this animal torture being part of some culture in the south. i can't recall any cultural fairs featuring this activity and i'm guessing that most in the south share in the disgust that this type of behaviour creates. chitcan the whole "enlightenment" trip you are on, you are are just sounding more and more like a big idiot.

 

Very, very, very well stated..............

 

 

 

 

 

 

for a Bengals fan.

[STL Fan]

You drop that warning NOW? Every post he has made was nothign more than a fishing trip.

 

No way is he that ignorant, can't be. That's why he ignored Loogie's entire post.

 

I know, I know, I can't help myself sometimes in the face of such gamesmanship!

[Menudo]

I stated clearly that I do not condone dog fighting, hunting, or female gential mutilation.

 

And this is not entirely a southern culture. It is also a northeastern urban culture, and is found in many other areas as well.

 

What I said was just because someone breaks a law and does something that we may find morally bankrupt, that does not mean that that person is heinous. If in his culture that behavior is normal, then its only an illegal behavior.

 

It that concept really that difficult to understand?

 

 

[tonorator]

you've got to be kidding.

 

sorry, wasn't talking to you on this one, but to whom you replied to

 

understand. i just hate how everyone is throwing around the word culture on this one. it is demeaning to the people living in the south.

[DKF]

What about his other points?

 

Just becasue child prostitution and sex slavery in Southeast Asia have been "normal in their culture for a thousand years", I should not find it "heinous"?

 

Just becasue slavery in Africa has been "normal in their culture for a thousand years", I should not find it "heinous"?

I personally do not approve of any of those actions or cultures. You, I, and 5 billion people on the planet have every right to find them heinous. The only point we do not agree on it that I do not feel that it is our right to inflict our (all 5 billion of us) values on other peoples. Whether it is child prostition, necrophelia, or jay-walking.

 

We live in the US. We have a republican form of government where we elect people to made decisions on what behavior and actions we are allowed to take. Those cultures did not elect us to tell them how to behave and act.

 

If we want to change their behavior, we need to do it in a contsructive engagement fashion (i.e. if you want to trade with us, you need to stop child prositution in your country). Where its their choice on how to act. To either continue their behavior or change their behavior. Not by us forcing it on them.

 

And no, giving someone such choices not forcing it on them. Its our choice to try and change their behavior, and their choice to accept the carrot in order to do it. Free will.

[wirehairman]

you've got to be kidding.

 

I can see his point. A certain practice, custom, lifestyle, etc. can be indicitive of a subculture or only present in a small minoirty of the culture. Labeling something as a cultural norm in this case would be misnomer.

 

For example, there are small groups of white supremists in Western Montana and Northern Idaho, but I would not classify white supremecy as a normal part of the Montana or Idaho culture.

 

edit: Didn't type quickly enough to see your reply. Carry on.

Edited September 7, 2007 by wirehairman

[DKF]

understand. i just hate how everyone is throwing around the word culture on this one. it is demeaning to the people living in the south.

As, I said, plenty of people here in NY dog fight. Its not just a southern culture issue. Its also an urban issue, regardless of locality.

[DKF]

OK, whacko, this is not at all what you said. The man's name barely came up in this thread, we were all talking about the act. And you were not defending him, you were defending the acts of dogfighting, and genital mutilation becase "who are we to 'enforce' our beliefs on someone? Careful you don't trip as you backpedal so quickly.

 

Did I not say that a person moving to a western nation where FGM is illegal, has a responsibility to assilimate to the new culture and adhere to its laws? I stand behind we do not have the right to go to a nation where is it not illegal and force it on them. Other than through positive engagement.

[Gdawg]

Absolutely. He was aware of the laws and violated them, and is paying the price for that.

 

The only point of contention that people have is that some folks feel that what he did was heinous. And some people think that having been raised in a culture that condone's that actively, his actions (although illegal, and rightfully penalized), are really no worse that some actives that are legal in this country.

 

But it seems that some people in the Heinous camp, feel that any opinions other than theirs, is not correct and that the holders of those opinions, are equally heinous.

 

Hitler felt the same way.

 

There are precious few who would view what was done to those animals as anything but ghastly.

[LooGie]

Very, very, very well stated..............

for a Bengals fan.

yah, that one probably hurt a little huh?

 

 

 

understand. i just hate how everyone is throwing around the word culture on this one. it is demeaning to the people living in the south.

undestood completely. I argued the "culture" point, but merely for arguments sake. I dont believe it's a culture, any more than higher car jackings in the south, or more drugs in low income areas, or even more violence among black teens. There are tendencies, and higher "stats" for things like that, but the word "culture" is a cop out. I just didn't choose to argue that point, because I could beat him with his own point.

 

edit: Didn't type quickly enough to see your reply. Carry on.

i'm in debate mode too

[tonorator]

As, I said, plenty of people here in NY dog fight. Its not just a southern culture issue. Its also an urban issue, regardless of locality.

 

no, it's not a southern culture or urban issue (whatever that is). it's abhorrent, illegal behavior that absolutely deserves condemnation. just like all the other heinous examples mentioned in this thread. some are OK to look the other way regarding these practices (such as yourself) and others are not OK and they will stand up for what is right (most everyone else). and don't get into some subjective argument about what is right/wrong. maybe you have no morals, but the majority of the rest of the world does, and thank God for those who have acted in the past and will do so in the future.

 

you need to decide which way is up.

[DKF]

There are precious few who would view what was done to those animals as anything but ghastly.

Just because and act that you, I, and 5 billion other people view as ghastly, does not mean that those precious few are heinous monsters. They simply have a different value system, that we do not.

[cre8tiff]

Just because and act that you, I, and 5 billion other people view as ghastly, does not mean that those precious few are heinous monsters. They simply have a different value system, that we do not.

 

As did Hitler.

[wirehairman]

I stand behind we do not have the right to go to a nation where is it not illegal and force it on them. Other than through positive engagement.

 

"Positive Engagement" = trade embargoes. This could work.

 

Cuba? Nope.

 

Iran? Nope.

 

North Korea? Nope.

 

Man, maybe I'm missing something. DKF, can you give me some examples where we have successfully used "positive engagement" to correct social wrongs in other countries?

[DKF]

no, it's not a southern culture or urban issue (whatever that is). it's abhorrent, illegal behavior that absolutely deserves condemnation. just like all the other heinous examples mentioned in this thread. some are OK to look the other way regarding these practices (such as yourself) and others are not OK and they will stand up for what is right (most everyone else). and don't get into some subjective argument about what is right/wrong. maybe you have no morals, but the majority of the rest of the world does, and thank God for those who have acted in the past and will do so in the future.

 

you need to decide which way is up.

 

I in no way said anything about looking the other way about dog fighting the the US where it is illegal. I said Vick knew he was committing a crime and will pay the penalty for it. The same way that I will pay the penalty for not wearing a seatbelt when I get pulled over for it. Its a crime, and when caught the penalty should and will be paid.

 

What I said was that people who particapate in dogfighting have a different set of values. That does not make them heinous monsters. Just criminals.

[DKF]

"Positive Engagement" = trade embargoes. This could work.

 

Cuba? Nope.

 

Iran? Nope.

 

North Korea? Nope.

 

Man, maybe I'm missing something. DKF, can you give me some examples where we have successfully used "positive engagement" to correct social wrongs in other countries?

 

There are laws proposed in Congress relating to trade issues requiring that countries that we trade with meet certain standards such as child labor laws etc. Personally, I think that these are very good concepts.

 

Embargoes against said nations, were not for correcting social injustices. Merely political / hostile in nature.

 

I also never said that they were guarenteed to work. Just the ideal for enacting social change for the benefit of mankind.

Edited September 7, 2007 by DKF

[DKF]

"Positive Engagement" = trade embargoes. This could work.

 

Cuba? Nope.

 

Iran? Nope.

 

North Korea? Nope.

 

Man, maybe I'm missing something. DKF, can you give me some examples where we have successfully used "positive engagement" to correct social wrongs in other countries?

Read this treaty

 

http://trade.businessroundtable.org/trade_...a_dr/labor.html

[Square]

The Founding Fathers had a term for the type of society we are forced to live in today: 'Tyranny of the masses'.

Actually, you should double check your history. The reason the founding fathers started a republic was to avoid "Tyranny of the Masses". That is why we are not a total democracy (popular vote does not decide the President for example). Re-pub-lics have politicians run the government that are meant to be representative of the people who voted them in office. Yes, some laws are passed by a majority of those representatives but don't get it twisted. Republics are by far the free-est nations in the world. So while its not perfect it is much better than other options. Churchill once said: "No one pretends that democracy is perfect or all-wise. Indeed, it has been said that democracy is the worst form of government except all those other forms that have been tried." And simply saying things like "the type of society we are forced to live in today" makes people think your wearing a tin hat and slobbering on your cheetos. Nobody is forcing you to do sh!t. Jump ship and go to some other country. Nobody makes you stay here.

 

I'll try to explain it one time: The cruel part about dog fighting is that you are taking a domesticated animal and purposely being cruel to it so that it wants to fight and attack. Basically, like abusing a child. You want to take something and turn it into a beast for sport and enjoyment. Taking any pleasure (which rational people must assume was at least an amusement by the numerous ways Vick was accused of killing the dogs) in murdering a creature that you have broken and turned cruel is a sign that you have serious issues. Basically, dogfighting is something that sociopaths and serial killers are known for (many psychological exams will ask you if you have ever wanted to hurt an animal). You trying to convince people that it is acceptable because some people consider it cultural or TO equating it to killing wild animals comes off as ridiculous. Like your Turkey theory… Equating a higher intelligence, domesticated animal to a Turkey that was raised for food simply shows that you don’t get it. Are we cruel for putting a fish in a bowl? Is it the same as taking a monkey and starving, abusing, or neglecting it to the point that it is machine of violence the same? You just need to come to the conclusion that you don’t get it and projecting your ignorance as the problem with those “do-gooders” is an issue you should work on.

 

I personally do not approve of any of those actions or cultures. You, I, and 5 billion people on the planet have every right to find them heinous. The only point we do not agree on it that I do not feel that it is our right to inflict our (all 5 billion of us) values on other peoples. Whether it is child prostition, necrophelia, or jay-walking.

“What you’ve just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.”

 

...and I'm out