Why isn't Marion Barber getting 90% of the carries

[Bronco Billy]

Why should Dallas mess with an offensive formula that works so well? To please fantasy owners everywhere?

 

Okay, let me get this right: If a team finds that it does something well, it shouldn't try to improve in that area?

 

I just want to be sure that I understand your position clearly.

 

 

If MBIII had be the only back Sunday against the Patriots would it have made a difference?

 

Quite possibly, but we'll never know. We saw the outcome of not using Barber enough, didn't we? How did that work out for Dallas?

[Dont Rookie Me........]

It's always great fun to watch ignorant people call others stupid.

 

 

well you got me then maybe we could ask the broncos how to win games!

[Bronco Billy]

well you got me then maybe we could ask the broncos how to win games!

 

Good one!

 

Let me try to enlighten you, though based upon what you've posted here so far I doubt that you'll be receptive to learning something.

 

DAL was playing a team where they were clearly outmatched. How do we know that? Well, NE's biggest strength on their team is their passing O, which is 1st in the league. DAL's single biggest weakness (other than coaching perhaps) is their pass D, which is 29th in the league. It doesn't take a genius to see that the biggest mismatch in the game was NE's passing O vs the DAL pass D. Anyone who has watched both teams could readily see it.

 

So, DAL can either decide to get into a track meet & outscore NE, or they can decide to hide their weakness as much as possible. The problem with getting into a track meet is that DAL doesn't have the mismatch that NE enjoys. DAL's run O is pretty evenly matched against the NE run D, and the DAL pass O is only marginally better than the NE pass D. That would dictate that DAL try to hide its weakness. In a track meet the predictable result is that DAL would get run over.

 

So how does a team try to cover such a bad mismatch for its pass D? By controlling the ball and the time of possession. That means DAL needed to run the football. So what does DAL do? Well, with the coaching genius that is Wade Phillips, they start Jones at RB and use him the first 2 series. The net result? A total of 8 plays, 2:46 off the clock, -8 yds gained in 2 drives, and NE jumps out ahead on - surprise! - 2 passing TDs. By the time Barber finally gets in, DAL is already in a huge hole, but it should be noted that they did feed Barber 5 rushes and that he did gain 5.4 ypc while Jones carried the ball 2 times for 1 yd in the first half. In other words, had they chosen to go to Barber instead of Jones, they could have run the ball on NE, they could have held onto the ball longer, they could have moved the ball more effectively, and most importantly, they would have kept Brady & crew off the field, out of rhythm, and from scorching their weak pass D.

 

By the time DAL knew what hit them in the game, the game had changed to one where DAL had to play catch-up, which played right into NE's hands, allowing them to use their strength against DAL's weakness. DAL somehow manages to hang around though, thanks to the running by Barber moving the ball in the first half and a great D play, and in fact manages to take a lead in the early 3rd quarter. That's when DAL seals its fate. They scored by running Jones on 2 big plays in the 3rd quarter, the drive stalled when Jones got stopped to no gain, and they threw into the endzone for a TD. They decide that despite Barber gaining 20 yds on 3 carries after that point, to get into the track meet. The end result was inevitable - DAL couldn't compete with NE in that kind of game given that kind of mismatch, and sure enough - DAL surrenders a 3 pt 3rd quarter lead and ends up losing by 21 pts as NE buries them in the second half.

 

DAL's only hope in that game was to run the football, shorten the game, and minimize its vulnerable secondary's exposure to the NE passing game. Instead it chose to try to run with the thoroughbred & got blown away. The course of the game & the results speak for themselves. And that's a direct result of electing not to run the football with Barber despite having strong success with it in the first half when they finally decided to try it.

 

Running the football allows a team to control the tempo of a game as well as weaking a D by keeping them on the field longer while physically pounding them - as long as a team is capable of moving the chains while doing it. With Jones DAL gets a homerun threat, but it also gets a lot of short gains that put it into passing situations and erratic production in the running game. With Barber DAL gets more consistency & production out of the running game. They also force other teams to respect the run and using more D players to stop it, which enhances their passing O, which is formidable. As a bonus with Barber, DAL also gets a better receiver on the field at the same time, which allows them to mix their passing game, causing more concerns for opposing Ds.

 

It's really not that difficult to understand. If you give up your misguided mission to be a dick (leave that to the professionals, please) despite not knowing what you are talking about, you might give this a couple of reads & try to comprehend it. Ask questions if you don't understand something. Keggerz stats are extremely relevant and he's right on target with his analysis of them.

Edited October 16, 2007 by Bronco Billy

[otis29]

So I guess you are more qualified to make an assessment of how MBIII and JJ should be utilized than the coaching staff of Dallas who sees these players every day at practice and breaks down their performances on film each and every week.

This is weak juju here. You might as well never criticize a player or coaching staff, right? Saying something like this can come back to haunt you down the road when you decide to bust out the criticism stick.

 

Sure, Dallas has a great offense, but that doesn't mean it can't be better. Clearly, either the defense needs to improve, or the offense needs to score more points (or both) when Dallas goes against the better teams in the NFL. Saying that Barber should get more touches is not the height of madness, but a legitimate point in the debate.

[alexgaddis]

Good one!

 

Let me try to enlighten you, though based upon what you've posted here so far I doubt that you'll be receptive to learning something.

 

DAL was playing a team where they were clearly outmatched. How do we know that? Well, NE's biggest strength on their team is their passing O, which is 1st in the league. DAL's single biggest weakness (other than coaching perhaps) is their pass D, which is 29th in the league. It doesn't take a genius to see that the biggest mismatch in the game was NE's passing O vs the DAL pass D. Anyone who has watched both teams could readily see it.

 

So, DAL can either decide to get into a track meet & outscore NE, or they can decide to hide their weakness as much as possible. The problem with getting into a track meet is that DAL doesn't have the mismatch that NE enjoys. DAL's run O is pretty evenly matched against the NE run D, and the DAL pass O is only marginally better than the NE pass D. That would dictate that DAL try to hide its weakness. In a track meet the predictable result is that DAL would get run over.

 

So how does a team try to cover such a bad mismatch for its pass D? By controlling the ball and the time of possession. That means DAL needed to run the football. So what does DAL do? Well, with the coaching genius that is Wade Phillips, they start Jones at RB and use him the first 2 series. The net result? A total of 8 plays, 2:46 off the clock, -8 yds gained in 2 drives, and NE jumps out ahead on - surprise! - 2 passing TDs. By the time Barber finally gets in, DAL is already in a huge hole, but it should be noted that they did feed Barber 5 rushes and that he did gain 5.4 ypc while Jones carried the ball 2 times for 1 yd in the first half. In other words, had they chosen to go to Barber instead of Jones, they could have run the ball on NE, they could have held onto the ball longer, they could have moved the ball more effectively, and most importantly, they would have kept Brady & crew off the field, out of rhythm, and from scorching their weak pass D.

 

By the time DAL knew what hit them in the game, the game had changed to one where DAL had to play catch-up, which played right into NE's hands, allowing them to use their strength against DAL's weakness. DAL somehow manages to hang around though, thanks to the running by Barber moving the ball in the first half and a great D play, and in fact manages to take a lead in the early 3rd quarter. That's when DAL seals its fate. They scored by running Jones on 2 big plays in the 3rd quarter, the drive stalled when Jones got stopped to no gain, and they threw into the endzone for a TD. They decide that despite Barber gaining 20 yds on 3 carries after that point, to get into the track meet. The end result was inevitable - DAL couldn't compete with NE in that kind of game given that kind of mismatch, and sure enough - DAL surrenders a 3 pt 3rd quarter lead and ends up losing by 21 pts as NE buries them in the second half.

 

DAL's only hope in that game was to run the football, shorten the game, and minimize its vulnerable secondary's exposure to the NE passing game. Instead it chose to try to run with the thoroughbred & got blown away. The course of the game & the results speak for themselves. And that's a direct result of electing not to run the football with Barber despite having strong success with it in the first half when they finally decided to try it.

 

Running the football allows a team to control the tempo of a game as well as weaking a D by keeping them on the field longer while physically pounding them - as long as a team is capable of moving the chains while doing it. With Jones DAL gets a homerun threat, but it also gets a lot of short gains that put it into passing situations and erratic production in the running game. With Barber DAL gets more consistency & production out of the running game. They also force other teams to respect the run and using more D players to stop it, which enhances their passing O, which is formidable. As a bonus with Barber, DAL also gets a better receiver on the field at the same time, which allows them to mix their passing game, causing more concerns for opposing Ds.

 

It's really not that difficult to understand. If you give up your misguided mission to be a dick (leave that to the professionals, please) despite not knowing what you are talking about, you might give this a couple of reads & try to comprehend it. Ask questions if you don't understand something. Keggerz stats are extremely relevant and he's right on target with his analysis of them.

 

Thank you for clearly stating what I have been thinking reading this thread...it's called keeping your bad pass D off the field against the best QB in the league...why don't people understand this?

[Grits and Shins]

This is weak juju here. You might as well never criticize a player or coaching staff, right? Saying something like this can come back to haunt you down the road when you decide to bust out the criticism stick.

 

Sure, Dallas has a great offense, but that doesn't mean it can't be better. Clearly, either the defense needs to improve, or the offense needs to score more points (or both) when Dallas goes against the better teams in the NFL. Saying that Barber should get more touches is not the height of madness, but a legitimate point in the debate.

 

Only for people who play fantasy football.

 

Nobody in the NFL or the Dallas media or the Dallas organization is questioning the RB rotation.

[Bronco Billy]

Nobody in the NFL or the Dallas media or the Dallas organization is questioning the RB rotation.

 

Nobody questioned Ryan Leaf & Tony Mandarich being high 1st round draft picks either.

 

NFL people aren't infallible, and the argument that Barber isn't a more productive RB than Jones is weak at best. As far as I'm concerned, DAL can piss away a bunch of carries to Jones if they want - they're not as good a team with Jones running the football, and I actively can not stand the Cowboys.

 

If they are serious about hanging with the hevyweights in the NFL they need to rethink their current love affair with Jones and feed Barber the ball much more often.

[Grits and Shins]

Nobody questioned Ryan Leaf & Tony Mandarich being high 1st round draft picks either.

 

NFL people aren't infallible, and the argument that Barber isn't a more productive RB than Jones is weak at best. As far as I'm concerned, DAL can piss away a bunch of carries to Jones if they want - they're not as good a team with Jones running the football, and I actively can not stand the Cowboys.

 

If they are serious about hanging with the hevyweights in the NFL they need to rethink their current love affair with Jones and feed Barber the ball much more often.

 

Funny that only the fantasy footballers have this opinion.

[doobwaa]

I like watching both MB3 and JJ run the ball, and I do agree that MB3 seems to be the more "exciting" back to watch, but JJ is far from chopped liver...

 

I think they both work well because of the other....fresh legs, change of pace, different strengths, etc.

 

I think the days of the STUD RB are going bye-bye. More and more teams are going RBBC so be happy with what you have....and use all your weapons.

 

Either back could be the primary carrier but would they be as effective with the heavier load?

 

Come playoff time both will have about 1/2 season worth of wear and tear and will be ready to go....I think thats what is important to the coaches.

[kingfish247]

Going back to the original post topic...

 

90% of Dallas' carries is about 380-390 rush attempts. That's a lot of carries.

If I were an MBIII owner OR the Dallas Cowboys organization, I wouldn't want him to get that many carries if I want him to last through November.

 

With the way Dallas was running the ball vs the Pats, I'd say both RBs were underutilized.

[keggerz]

Only for people who play fantasy football.

 

Nobody in the NFL or the Dallas media or the Dallas organization is questioning the RB rotation.

so

 

Funny that only the fantasy footballers have this opinion.

my opinion has nothing to do with a FF perspective...i dont own barber on a single

fantasy team that i manage.

 

Going back to the original post topic...

 

90% of Dallas' carries is about 380-390 rush attempts. That's a lot of carries.

If I were an MBIII owner OR the Dallas Cowboys organization, I wouldn't want him to get that many carries if I want him to last through November.

 

With the way Dallas was running the ball vs the Pats, I'd say both RBs were underutilized.

i agree....i pretty much shrugged off the 90% knowing it was far to high a percentage but did agree that barber needs to see the ball more.

[keggerz]

I like watching both MB3 and JJ run the ball, and I do agree that MB3 seems to be the more "exciting" back to watch, but JJ is far from chopped liver...

 

I think they both work well because of the other....fresh legs, change of pace, different strengths, etc.

 

I think the days of the STUD RB are going bye-bye. More and more teams are going RBBC so be happy with what you have....and use all your weapons.

 

Either back could be the primary carrier but would they be as effective with the heavier load?

 

Come playoff time both will have about 1/2 season worth of wear and tear and will be ready to go....I think thats what is important to the coaches.

i find it hard to believe that people can even say that JJ is productive

 

Look at these stats:

 

JJ on 1st downs: 179carries 679yards 3.8ypc 2TDs

Barber on 1st downs: 63carries 296yards 4.7ypc 7TDs

 

4th quarter:

JJ 43/138 3.2avg 1TD

Barber 50/285 5.7avg 8TDs

 

Now one could say that Barber is able to be sucessful in the 4th quarter because he is fresher but anyway you slice it a 3.2 YPC by your Starting RB is not good

 

and JJ has some really impressive stats in the 1st half this yr:

36carries for 101yrds 2.8ypc 1 TD and 4 1st downs

Edited October 16, 2007 by keggerz

[Hat Trick]

Funny that only the fantasy footballers have this opinion.

 

Okay, so say Dallass lost there last 3, obviously they didn't but almost did, you can seriously sit there and say HAD this happened that only us FF'ers would be stating the obvious?

[Grits and Shins]

Okay, so say Dallass lost there last 3, obviously they didn't but almost did, you can seriously sit there and say HAD this happened that only us FF'ers would be stating the obvious?

 

How often to pay to make a repair on an item that is not broken?

[keggerz]

How often to pay to make a repair on an item that is not broken?

do you keep a 4 speed in 3rd gear just because it can go 55 in that gear?

[Grits and Shins]

do you keep a 4 speed in 3rd gear just because it can go 55 in that gear?

 

Is it better to drive all out in 4th gear for 7 or 8 games and then attempt to coast home when the engine blows?

[alexgaddis]

How often to pay to make a repair on an item that is not broken?

Depends, did you take the item to a Firestone for new tires?

[keggerz]

Is it better to drive all out in 4th gear for 7 or 8 games and then attempt to coast home when the engine blows?

i didnt say that you do that...but if i own a nice muscle car you better believe that I am going to get my moneys worth from it...otherwise why have it if you are gonna drive it like a Rosie O'Donnell

[Grits and Shins]

i didnt say that you do that...but if i own a nice muscle car you better believe that I am going to get my moneys worth from it...otherwise why have it if you are gonna drive it like a Rosie O'Donnell

 

You are saying that Dallas could get more by kicking it up to 4th gear, implying they should run all out all the time. I'm saying you do that and you blow the engine. Now the muscle car sits in the shop the last half of the season and you have to run the race with your mini-van.

[keggerz]

Jones is a solid back thats capable of starting for just about any team .

i think you are arguing the same side as me but I have to ask.....what do you consider a solid back and what teams do you think JJ could start for?

[keggerz]

You are saying that Dallas could get more by kicking it up to 4th gear, implying they should run all out all the time. I'm saying you do that and you blow the engine. Now the muscle car sits in the shop the last half of the season and you have to run the race with your mini-van.

no i am saying that they should shift to their top gear rather then try and drive in 2nd or 3rd gear....and if you dont abuse a car in its top gear you wont blow the engine....i have not said to give barber ALL the touches ....all i have said is that barber deserves more touches and that I dont understand the infatuation with JJ..nothing more nothing less...but you and other homers take a defensive stance to protect your beloved JJ...

[i_am_the_swammi]

Only for people who play fantasy football.

 

Nobody in the NFL or the Dallas media or the Dallas organization is questioning the RB rotation.

 

Nobody is questioning it because they are winning....correct?

 

Then let me ask this, since I'm not from Dallas....did they question it last year when Dallas handed the division to Philly by folding the final month of the season, then promptly exiting the playoffs?

 

Dallas's 11th-ranked rush stats this year are semi-inflated, due to the fact that they have held a lead for many games (which their PASSING game gave them)....it ain't because JJ contributes to them being the 11th best, thats for sure. 11th-most, and 11th-best, are two completely different things

 

I can't think of one good reason not to use your best players.

Edited October 16, 2007 by i_am_the_swammi

[Grits and Shins]

no i am saying that they should shift to their top gear rather then try and drive in 2nd or 3rd gear....and if you dont abuse a car in its top gear you wont blow the engine....i have not said to give barber ALL the touches ....all i have said is that barber deserves more touches and that I dont understand the infatuation with JJ..nothing more nothing less...but you and other homers take a defensive stance to protect your beloved JJ...

 

JJ is not my "beloved" ... Dallas should have drafted Stephen Jackson instead of dropping down and taking Julius.

 

My point is that the offense has scored more points than any other team in the league and is averaging 130 yards rushing per game. The offense is NOT broken and as such there is no reason to change things up simply because a bunch of geeks that play fantasy football believe MBIII to be the best back based on the few minutes they see of the Dallas game on Sundays.

[Locness_Monster]

As a FF geek who owns him, I would like to see him get more carries.

 

As a football fan, I think he is the SUPERIOR running back. He has better vision, balance, runs with violence and aggression, can catch, and is a better blocker in pass protection. He is simply more productive. The only thing that Julius Jones has on him is top speed.

 

As a football coach, it bothers me that Dallas came in with the game plan that it did. Without loyalty to either player, I would have gone with a classic Bill Parcells/Pittsburgh Steeler/Joe Gibbs/Jacksonville style of trying to control the clock and run the football. With that in mind, my best chance for success with that gameplan is feed Marion Barber.

 

Grits, I understand where you're coming from with your stats, but there's the component of game management. The perfect example of how (not) to manage a game is the 2006 Rose Bowl, Texas vs. USC.

 

USC OC Lane Kiffin had a great collection of offensive talent. USC came into that game with a patchwork D. What does Kiffin choose? To get into an (unnecessary) shootout with Texas. Had USC controlled the clock (TO PROTECT ITS DEFENSE) a bit more in that game, they win. Yes, they put 38 points. Yes, they went for 500 yards. But they did not win.

Edited October 16, 2007 by Locness_Monster

[Hat Trick]

JJ is not my "beloved" ... Dallas should have drafted Stephen Jackson instead of dropping down and taking Julius.

 

My point is that the offense has scored more points than any other team in the league and is averaging 130 yards rushing per game. The offense is NOT broken and as such there is no reason to change things up simply because a bunch of geeks that play fantasy football believe MBIII to be the best back based on the few minutes they see of the Dallas game on Sundays.

 

I'm no geek, because I love Sports and FF makes me no geek. Idiot