Looking for feedback

[Furd]

You shouldn't ask for opinions on a message board with such delicate sensabilities.

 

You asked for opinions from consumers - not fellow restaurateurs. I'm a consumer that dines out frequently.

 

I go back to a restaurant because I enjoyed the dining experience. I don't give a rat's ass about how much the owner makes per table or about how much the owner could make on a table if he could flip it faster. I want good food. I want good service. And part of the good service is being treated like a valued customer.

 

Unless you are a swanky place that features 2 seatings only and I know that when I make my reservation, making me leave at a certain time or making me feel like I've overstayed my welcome does not make me feel like a valued customer. Making me pay a minimum does not make me like a valued customer.

 

If you want to tell me when I call that you don't accept parties greater than 8, fine. And if you tell me that I have to rent out a room at a certain price for a large group (like a Chuck E. Cheese or whatever), that's ok I suppose. But you lose me when you start getting into the mathematics of it all and looking at my wallet and not me, which is exactly what you are getting at in this thread.

Edited January 29, 2008 by Furd

[H8tank]

OH SNAP!!!!!

[polksalet]

Wife says you are being hypersensitive. She say you are in the customer service business and this stuff does not make customers happy. Customers want to be coddled and taken care of. Employees want to be babied and parented. In all of this you must succeed while making a profit. Like I said these are her opinions.

 

Me? I say if the food/service/price combo comes in fo rme I would eat there and return. If not, I wouldn't.

[billay]

You shouldn't ask for opinions on a message board with such delicate sensabilities.

 

You asked for opinions from consumers - not fellow restaurateurs. I'm a consumer that dines out frequently.

 

I go back to a restaurant because I enjoyed the dining experience. I don't give a rat's ass about how much the owner makes per table or about how much the owner could make on a table if he could flip it faster. I want good food. I want good service. And part of the good service is being treated like a valued customer. You do if you like the place and don't want it to go under

 

Unless you are a swanky place that features 2 seatings only and I know that when I make my reservation, making me leave at a certain time or making me feel like I've overstayed my welcome does not make me feel like a valued customer. Making me pay a minimum does not make me like a valued customer. Food and beverage minimums are standard operating procedure for large groups

 

If you want to tell me when I call that you don't accept parties greater than 8, fine. And if you tell me that I have to rent out a room at a certain price for a large group (like a Chuck E. Cheese or whatever), that's ok I suppose. But you lose me when you start getting into the mathematics of it all and looking at my wallet and not me, which is exactly what you are getting at in this thread.

He's doing it here so he doesn't have to do it with the customer. Do you have any idea of how thin a profit margin a restaurant operates on? A few extra people every night can make or break a place.

[Caveman_Nick]

Unless you are a swanky place that features 2 seatings only and I know that when I make my reservation, making me leave at a certain time or making me feel like I've overstayed my welcome does not make me feel like a valued customer. Making me pay a minimum does not make me like a valued customer.

 

Would paying a Room Fee to have a room in the restaurant reserved for your large party for the night make you not feel like a valued customer?

 

FWIW, I agree with your other 2 points, but room fees are not uncommon for having a private room reserved. At least not in my area.

[Furd]

Would paying a Room Fee to have a room in the restaurant reserved for your large party for the night make you not feel like a valued customer?

 

FWIW, I agree with your other 2 points, but room fees are not uncommon for having a private room reserved. At least not in my area.

 

 

Not at all. I have no idea what the custom is, but I wouldn't have any objection to paying a reasonable charge.

[detlef]

He's doing it here so he doesn't have to do it with the customer. Do you have any idea of how thin a profit margin a restaurant operates on? A few extra people every night can make or break a place.

Ding! Ding! Ding!

 

Now, where to begin. Furd, I'm not sure exactly where I became "over-sensitive". Perhaps it's when you implied that I treat my customers like crap. Now, if you've been to my place and ever been treated like crap, bring it on. Otherwise...

 

Perhaps it was when you felt you needed to skew my points and exaggerate for effect (as you once again did in your last missive when you compared reserving a private dining room in a high-end place to Chuck E Cheese). Seriously? Is the notion of high-end places having private rooms so foreign to you?

 

Now, the reality that when people come here looking for "suggestions" or "feedback", they open themselves up to the peanut gallery is not lost on me. I'm sure as guilty as the next in piling on in that regard. However, I'll be damned if I'm going to just take unwarranted shots lying down.

 

However, yours and other replies were exactly what I was looking for. As I made rather clear in my original post, I am very aware of the image issues surrounding option #2. Thus, I figured I'd lob it out to the group. Now, it appears plenty have no problem with it. Unfortunately, plenty is not always enough. As I think about it more, perhaps the easiest way to approach the situation is to simply not take large parties on weekends prior to 8pm. It appears that you would rather be told "no" than, "we can do that but it will cost you". To a degree, I understand that, but to be completely frank, it seems to be a rather naive stance to take.

 

I'm ultimately at peace with this because, as I look back, I've rarely had parties much larger than 10 turn out to be really big spenders anyway, so there's not much reason to complicate the situation to make room for a revenue segment that simply is not that large. And, of course, should one of my high-roller customers approach me with such a party, I can always make an exception.

 

However, like Billay says, I come here to bounce notions off you guys because I can see what the dining public will react to policies without testing my theories out on my actual customers.

 

Also understand that it should be the goal of any business to not be completely at the mercy of his customers. If you can provide a good enough product and create a strong enough demand, you should, at some point, be able to call some of the shots. Many of the things I've mentioned over the past here are exactly that sort of thing. Now, if it's all you can do to get anyone in the door, then you put up with a lot of crap. However, if you are turning people away regularly, you simply don't.

 

On to another point. Honestly, I don't know why I'm indulging B8tank but what the hell.

 

Why H8's charming story about 3 cent copies means nothing to me:

 

You gave us way too little info and have a bit of a reputation of posting crap out of context. So, off the top of my head, here's a few great reasons why guy #2 closed down.

 

1) Guy #1 saw the writing on the wall and sold out. I live in an area dominated by colleges and know of almost no independently owned copy shops. Something tells me that's a dying breed.

2) Guy #1 was making a decent living but was working his ass of to do so because giving away copies was paramount to his customer traffic and occupied a ton of his energy. Guy #2 said, "Christ! I can make $50K a year much easier than this."

3) Guy #2 knows what numbers are and realized that you simply can't afford to give copies away period. Machines are expensive and they break down often. Plus, old machines suck and you can't afford to buy new ones unless they are actually generating revenue for you. So, at some point, he's got a bunch of crappy old machines that he has to pay to have fixed and people stop going there anyway because old copiers make crappy copies. Thus dude says, well this simply is not working. I'm not prepared to martyr myself to the public and invest another 5 figures into a new copy machine that will take me 10 years to pay off considering that I actually lose money every time a customer walks through my door.

4) How often have you needed to make a copy and then though, "Oh wow, I just happen to have a package that needs to be sent. Looky there, dude does shipping as well!".

5) Say you didn't. There's no shortage of Mail Box etcs around. The next time you do need to ship something, are you more likely to go back to the free copy place, or the closest place?

6) I'm assuming that dude needed to make up for lost money on shipping so perhaps he charged more for those services. If you are a value shopper, RIP your money-saving-boner as soon as you see his shipping prices on the wall.

7) Can I stop now?

[keggerz]

there are some pretty long winded responses(for me to say there are long winded responses really says something) in here so I stopped reading long ago....anyway, and i dont know if this has been said yet or not but to say you are losing money on a larger parter because of the time they could take is short sighted. Short sighted in that it doesn't account for the additional business it can/will generate for you down the line. Parties were one of the main reasons that we were able to grow a very strong local business(yet we barely would break even on a party)...but then again take what I say with a grain of salt since we are closing our doors for good today(unfortunately tourism is taking it up the a$$ here)...I think you have to either have to 1. Suck it up and continue booking them like you have been and understand it will generate future business for you or 2. Implement a no parties on weekend policy....that might seem a bit hard to swallow if a good customer wants to book a party but the one thing customers want and can appreciate is consistency....consistency from the food to the service to what and how you handle things.

Edited January 29, 2008 by keggerz

[keggerz]

with regards to the copy store: its called a LOSS LEADER and many types of business will use that sorta thing to get people in the door...in the restaurant business the closest thing is probably HAPPY HOUR...and while it probably doesn't relate to your business I can see the point that H8 was making.

[detlef]

there are some pretty long winded responses in here so I stopped reading long ago(for me to say there are long winded responses really says something)....anyway, and i dont know if this has been said yet or not but to say you are losing money on a larger parter because of the time they could take is short sighted. Short sighted in that it doesn't account for the additional business it can/will generate for you down the line. Parties were one of the main reasons that we were able to grow a very strong local business(yet we barely would break even on a party)...but then again take what I say with a grain of salt since we are closing our doors for good today...I think you have to either have to 1. Suck it up and continue booking them like you have been and understand it will generate future business for you or 2. Implement a no parties on weekend policy....that might seem a bit hard to swallow if a good customer wants to book a party but the one thing customers want and can appreciate is consistency....consistency from the food to the service to what and how you handle things.

The point you make has been made regarding the exposure they bring. It is an entirely valuable point. However, it is a cost none the less. The cost is not theoretical but entirely real. Taking a large party before 8pm on weekends has and will cost me about 20 customers each and every time I do so. So that needs to be factored in. Now, best case scenario for me is that everyone at that party but the person making the reservation is a first timer and they end up loving the place so much that they become regulars. Of course, what is a regular? I would imagine that anyone who dines at a place at least every other month is a regular. We certainly have people who do so more often than that but when you consider how many places there are to eat and how rarely many people get out, you should be pleased if somebody comes to your place that often.

 

So, let's say, realistically, I turn on 4 new regular couples every time I take on a party of 20. I have to think that expecting anything better than that would be a bit ambitious considering that some times nearly the entire party may already be customers and other times there are plenty of non-diners or out of towners who you'll never see again.

 

None the less. It will take me several months to make that money back. Further, unless their hard core diners (and most hard core diners will find out about a place long before they've been there for 2 years), they're going to be weekend diners. If there's one thing I don't need more of it's weekend diners. The only way I can grow my business at this point is by increasing my late night traffic (very difficult to do in my neighborhood and I've tried and failed enough times now to realize this), increasing my 5:30 business, making M-Th as busy as the weekends (which is near impossible in anything but an A market because, unlike Friday or Saturday, people will not accept reservations earlier or later than they wanted, and are less likely to accept bar seating or waiting for a table because they know there's bound to be another place to eat). The easiest option, of course, is not give in to a system in which I voluntarily reduce my seating capacity by 10% every weekend by booking large parties early.

[keggerz]

The point you make has been made regarding the exposure they bring. It is an entirely valuable point. However, it is a cost none the less. The cost is not theoretical but entirely real. Taking a large party before 8pm on weekends has and will cost me about 20 customers each and every time I do so. So that needs to be factored in. Now, best case scenario for me is that everyone at that party but the person making the reservation is a first timer and they end up loving the place so much that they become regulars. Of course, what is a regular? I would imagine that anyone who dines at a place at least every other month is a regular. We certainly have people who do so more often than that but when you consider how many places there are to eat and how rarely many people get out, you should be pleased if somebody comes to your place that often.

 

So, let's say, realistically, I turn on 4 new regular couples every time I take on a party of 20. I have to think that expecting anything better than that would be a bit ambitious considering that some times nearly the entire party may already be customers and other times there are plenty of non-diners or out of towners who you'll never see again.

 

None the less. It will take me several months to make that money back. Further, unless their hard core diners (and most hard core diners will find out about a place long before they've been there for 2 years), they're going to be weekend diners. If there's one thing I don't need more of it's weekend diners. The only way I can grow my business at this point is by increasing my late night traffic (very difficult to do in my neighborhood and I've tried and failed enough times now to realize this), increasing my 5:30 business, making M-Th as busy as the weekends (which is near impossible in anything but an A market because, unlike Friday or Saturday, people will not accept reservations earlier or later than they wanted, and are less likely to accept bar seating or waiting for a table because they know there's bound to be another place to eat). The easiest option, of course, is not give in to a system in which I voluntarily reduce my seating capacity by 10% every weekend by booking large parties early.

then you have answered your own questions, no parties on weekends

[detlef]

with regards to the copy store: its called a LOSS LEADER and many types of business will use that sorta thing to get people in the door...in the restaurant business the closest thing is probably HAPPY HOUR...and while it probably doesn't relate to your business I can see the point that H8 was making.

I understand what a loss leader is. However, there's a limit. Giving away free nachos while you charge people for drinks that you make 700% profit on is one thing. After all, once they sell you one drink, they've paid for yours and a few other peoples free grub. Having your entire business model predicated on a costly and time consuming practice that may or may not lead to anything more is another.

 

After all, try going into happy hour, hitting the free buffet, and just sitting there drinking water. That's not going to go over very well. However, I would imagine that the vast majority of people hitting the 3 cent copies were doing just that.

[wiegie]

In other words, wiegie's first post (in its edited form) gave the correct answer.

 

[detlef]

then you have answered your own questions, no parties on weekends

You do realize that was the entire purpose of this thread, right? To throw out my options and see what people's reactions would be in order to help me come up with a good solution.

[detlef]

In other words, wiegie's first post (in its edited form) gave the correct answer.

 

Indeed, though others made the same point.

[wiegie]

Indeed, though others made the same point.

When I was a teenager I used to work at McDonald's, so I know all about the restaurant industry. Just PM me if you have any more questions.

[keggerz]

You do realize that was the entire purpose of this thread, right? To throw out my options and see what people's reactions would be in order to help me come up with a good solution.

yeah i know what the purpose of the thread is/was...but honestly when peoples "reactions" dont match your expectations of what they should be you get lets say sorta defensive, and then that comes off as not really caring what peoples feedback is...i know that probably isnt what or how you want it to be but that is how it sorta comes off.

[keggerz]

When I was a teenager I used to work at McDonald's, so I know all about the restaurant industry. Just PM me if you have any more questions.

+1 and I remember when McNuggets got added to the menu too

[detlef]

When I was a teenager I used to work at McDonald's, so I know all about the restaurant industry. Just PM me if you have any more questions.

When I was a teenager, I applied and got turned down. (Note to H8, you might want to hold on to this one. It may come in handy down the road)

[wiegie]

When I was a teenager, I applied and got turned down. (Note to H8, you might want to hold on to this one. It may come in handy down the road)

Well, if it makes you feel better, I got turned down by Hardees before McDonald's took a chance on me.

[detlef]

yeah i know what the purpose of the thread is/was...but honestly when peoples "reactions" dont match your expectations of what they should be you get lets say sorta defensive, and then that comes off as not really caring what peoples feedback is...i know that probably isnt what or how you want it to be but that is how it sorta comes off.

That's sort of odd. Really. I don't recall getting in anyone's face until Furd started implying things that weren't true. Well, there was H8, but I've pretty much got him on "auto f-off" so that doesn't count.

 

I admit that I was pre-disposed to option #2, but completely understood everyone's early issues with it. Right up until Furd said, "If I walk into your restaurant and you tell me how much I have to pay, I'm out of there." Which, like most of his points, were exaggerations of what I was talking about.

[H8tank]

However, I would imagine that the vast majority of people hitting the 3 cent copies were doing just that.

 

It was a well established, several year venture that showed a profit.... the dude that took it over did not have a business mind, he made decisions with what he thought was obvious, that he wasn't making enough money on the copies... he doomed himself and this profitable business cause he got greedy... it is not surprising to me that you came to the same conclusion as he mr. joojoobe.

[detlef]

It was a well established, several year venture that showed a profit.... the dude that took it over did not have a business mind, he made decisions with what he thought was obvious, that he wasn't making enough money on the copies... he doomed himself and this profitable business cause he got greedy... it is not surprising to me that you came to the same conclusion as he mr. joojoobe.

Taking your word for it would require me to overlook the fact that you have proven time and again that, well, you are typically full of it and rarely back up what you say with anything credible. Well, that and the next time your rants are not totally agenda driven will be the first.

 

Of course, anyone remotely reasonable would understand that my very thorough business analysis was based on a less than massive amount of evidence that you provided and would not condemn me for postulating that there might just be other reasons besides, dude was an idiot, for why this business closed.

[chester]

It appears that you would rather be told "no" than, "we can do that but it will cost you". To a degree, I understand that, but to be completely frank, it seems to be a rather naive stance to take.

 

Naive or not, that's exactly how I feel.

[detlef]

One last shot here in terms what I mean when I say, "yes but it will cost you"...

 

Customer: I’d like to book a party of 20 for next Friday at 7pm

 

Me: Well, we’d be happy to take care of that, but unfortunately there are some restrictions I need to tell you about. Basically, in order to accommodate a party that size at that time requires that I close off a section of my dining room for the night. However, I can’t afford to do so on weekend nights without charging a minimum of X dollars. I understand if you don’t feel like spending that and would be happy to waive that on any weekday night or even after 8pm on weekends. Also, I’d like to assure you that, should you decide to go ahead and book that party, we are not talking about a room fee. We will certainly make your evening one to remember and worth every penny you’re spending.

So, does this piss you guys off?

 

Honestly, just curious here.