CaP'N GRuNGe Posted February 14, 2008 Share Posted February 14, 2008 Maverick Fails The Test: McCain Votes Against Waterboarding Ban Today, the Senate brought the Intelligence Authorization Bill to the floor, containing a provision from Sen. Dianne Feinstein (D-CA) that establishes one interrogation standard, requiring the intelligence community to abide by the same standards as articulated in the Army Field Manual and banning waterboarding. Just hours ago, the Senate voted in favor of the bill, 51-45. Earlier today, ThinkProgress noted that Sen. John McCain (R-AZ), a former prisoner of war, has spoken strongly in favor of implementing the Army Field Manual standard. When confronted today with the decision of whether to stick with his conscience or cave to the right wing, McCain chose to ditch his principles and instead vote to preserve waterboarding: Mr. McCain, a former prisoner of war, has consistently voiced opposition to waterboarding and other methods that critics say is a form torture. But the Republicans, confident of a White House veto, did not mount the challenge. Mr. McCain voted “no” on Wednesday afternoon. The New York Times Times notes that “the White House has long said Mr. Bush will veto the bill, saying it ‘would prevent the president from taking the lawful actions necessary to protect Americans from attack in wartime.’” After Bush vetoes the bill, McCain will again be confronted with a vote to either stand with President Bush or stand against torture. He indicated with his vote today where he will come down on that issue. John McCain: He was against waterboarding before he was for it. ------------------------------------------------------ Hey Az, care to defend this one? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
budlitebrad Posted February 14, 2008 Share Posted February 14, 2008 This isn't the best time for McCain to start upsetting the other conservatives. It's not the first time he has voted this way. I doubt he shows up to vote on Bush's veto. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AtomicCEO Posted February 14, 2008 Share Posted February 14, 2008 That makes me sad. It really does. I'd have a lot more respect for him for sticking to his guns rather than pandering. John, you broke my heart. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seminoles Posted February 14, 2008 Share Posted February 14, 2008 Do you know what else was on the bill? I'm too busy/lazy to go and read it, but before we start bashing him it might be smart to make sure he also didn't vote against something else w/ it. I'm not a die-hard McCain supporter or anything, I just hate it when people immediately assume a politician is a flip-flopper when the bill might be misleading. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AtomicCEO Posted February 14, 2008 Share Posted February 14, 2008 Do you know what else was on the bill? I'm too busy/lazy to go and read it, but before we start bashing him it might be smart to make sure he also didn't vote against something else w/ it. I don't care if it allows torture while also closing a loophole that allows child molesters to run daycares. Write a new bill that doesn't allow torture if you're a former POW who has argued against waterboarding. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dmarc117 Posted February 14, 2008 Share Posted February 14, 2008 Arguing for such restrictions, Senate Intelligence Committee Chairman Jay Rockefeller, D-W.Va., said the use of harsh tactics would boomerang on the United States. "Retaliation is the way of the world. What we do to others, they will do to us -- but worse," Rockefeller said. "This debate is about more than legality. It is also about morality, the way we see ourselves ... and what we represent to the world." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HowboutthemCowboys Posted February 14, 2008 Share Posted February 14, 2008 I don't care if it allows torture while also closing a loophole that allows child molesters to run daycares. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
polksalet Posted February 14, 2008 Share Posted February 14, 2008 It is an interesting country who kills babies but refuses to upset murderers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Swerski Posted February 14, 2008 Share Posted February 14, 2008 (edited) It is an interesting country who kills babies but refuses to upset murderers. Not only that, but provides prayer rugs and copies of the Koran for them as well. Seriously, what does announcing to the world that the U.S. military no longer water-boards accomplish? Besides taking the threat away from captured enemies and giving them incentive to be even more defiant. Why not have a public "we're not going to tell you" policy with an internal "no waterboarding" policy? Edited February 14, 2008 by Bill Swerski Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bushwacked Posted February 14, 2008 Share Posted February 14, 2008 The right-wing circle jerk has commenced. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
polksalet Posted February 14, 2008 Share Posted February 14, 2008 The right-wing circle jerk has commenced. Just making an observation on our bizarre values. I wonder how George Washington would come down on this? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AtomicCEO Posted February 14, 2008 Share Posted February 14, 2008 It is an interesting country who kills babies but refuses to upset murderers. I was against the Iraq war too, comrade. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moneymakers Posted February 14, 2008 Share Posted February 14, 2008 Maybe if we make it against the law to water-board than maybe the enemy will stop beheading our guys. Sissy donkeys all of them. I vote capital punishment should be on pay per view and make water-boarding a sport. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AtomicCEO Posted February 14, 2008 Share Posted February 14, 2008 Maybe if we make it against the law to water-board than maybe the enemy will stop beheading our guys. Sissy donkeys all of them. I vote capital punishment should be on pay per view and make water-boarding a sport. This has been a reading from the Book of Matthew. Now please bow your heads for a prayer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kpholmes Posted February 14, 2008 Share Posted February 14, 2008 Maybe if we make it against the law to water-board than maybe the enemy will stop beheading our guys. Sissy donkeys all of them. I vote capital punishment should be on pay per view and make water-boarding a sport. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sundaynfl Posted February 14, 2008 Share Posted February 14, 2008 Do you know what else was on the bill? I'm too busy/lazy to go and read it, but before we start bashing him it might be smart to make sure he also didn't vote against something else w/ it.I'm not a die-hard McCain supporter or anything, I just hate it when people immediately assume a politician is a flip-flopper when the bill might be misleading. +1... most of the bill is classified; so it's another case of people making a big issue out of an issue that they know only a small portion of. Quick everybody "Let's all jumpo onto the negativity bandwagon!!" This is about a guy that endured lots of torture so I gaurantee there is more to it than meets the eye! Link The bill, a House-Senate compromise to authorize intelligence operations in 2008, also blocks spending 70 percent of the intelligence budget until the House and Senate intelligence committees are briefed on Israel's Sept. 6 air strike on an alleged nuclear site in Syria. The 2008 intelligence budget is classified, but it is more than the $43 billion approved for 2007. Most of the bill itself also is classified, although some portions were made public. One provision requires reporting to the committees on whether intelligence agency employees are complying with protections for detainees from cruel, inhumane and degrading treatment. Another requires a report on the use of private contractors in intelligence work. It is the first intelligence authorization conference bill Congress has produced in three years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ursa Majoris Posted February 14, 2008 Share Posted February 14, 2008 Not only that, but provides prayer rugs and copies of the Koran for them as well. Seriously, what does announcing to the world that the U.S. military no longer water-boards accomplish? Besides taking the threat away from captured enemies and giving them incentive to be even more defiant. Why not have a public "we're not going to tell you" policy with an internal "no waterboarding" policy? Waterboarding is not the point. Nor is what our enemies do. What IS important is to maintain the standards we have set, not to sink into the stinking morass occupied by the Islamic maniacs. I wonder how George Washington would come down on this? I would bet heavily that Washington would uphold standards and not dream of lowering himself to the level of vermin. But Washington was an honorable man, not a trait easily discernible in the current bunch of pygmies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pope Flick Posted February 14, 2008 Share Posted February 14, 2008 (edited) This whole thing boils down to a very simple point: it's not about them, it is about us and who we are as a people. If you want to call them animals for how they treat their captives, and then sink to their level then you've become no better than them and they have won something from us. Why do you hate America? Edited February 14, 2008 by Pope Flick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaP'N GRuNGe Posted February 14, 2008 Author Share Posted February 14, 2008 This whole thing boils down to a very simple point: it's not about them, it is about us and who we are as a people. If you want to call them animals for how they treat their captives, and then sink to their level then you've become no better than them and they have won something from us. Why do you hate America? There's that and the high probability that torture doesn't even work. If you torture someone and they want you to stop, they will tell you what they think you want to hear, even if it's not true. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duchess Jack Posted February 14, 2008 Share Posted February 14, 2008 I am all for torture. But McCain is being a little shady. Reminds me of how he railed against the religious right for years, only to speak at Faldwells university. There are certain things you need to do to get the conservative vote. He's doing this for the Coulters, Limbaughs and Hannities of the nation. The republican Superdelagates ((because folk so blindly follow them)) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Randall Posted February 14, 2008 Share Posted February 14, 2008 There's that and the high probability that torture doesn't even work. If you torture someone and they want you to stop, they will tell you what they think you want to hear, even if it's not true. Exactly. We torrtured one ex Iraqi and used his claims to justify the war. He lied, told us what he thought we wanted to hear, and attacked Iraq. There is no way to know if torture produces the truth under the current system. Curveball was the pseudonym given by the Central Intelligence Agency to Rad Ahmed Alwan (Arabic: رافد أحمد علوان), an Iraqi citizen who defected from Iraq in 1999, claiming that he had worked as a chemical engineer at a plant that manufactured mobile biological weapon laboratories as part of an Iraqi weapons of mass destruction program.[1] Alwan's allegations were subsequently shown to be false by the Iraq Survey Group's final report published in 2004. Despite warnings from the German Federal Intelligence Service regarding the authenticity of the claims, the US Government utilized them to build a rationale for military action in the lead up to the 2003 invasion of Iraq, including in the 2003 State of the Union address, where President Bush said "we know that Iraq, in the late 1990s, had several mobile biological weapons labs", and Colin Powell's presentation to the UN Security Council, which contained a computer generated image of a mobile biological weapons laboratory.[2][1] On November 4, 2007, 60 Minutes revealed Curveball's real identity.[3] Former CIA official Tyler Drumheller summed up Curveball as "a guy trying to get his green card essentially, in Germany, and playing the system for what it was worth."[1] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheShiznit Posted February 14, 2008 Share Posted February 14, 2008 It is an interesting country who kills babies but refuses to upset murderers. Unborn babies....right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheShiznit Posted February 14, 2008 Share Posted February 14, 2008 Maybe if we make it against the law to water-board than maybe the enemy will stop beheading our guys. Sissy donkeys all of them. I vote capital punishment should be on pay per view and make water-boarding a sport. Ahh...the person who hates murder of the unborn....but supports state sponsored murder. How very Christian of you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dmarc117 Posted February 14, 2008 Share Posted February 14, 2008 (edited) In a statement, McCain said the measure goes too far in applying military standards to intelligence agencies and maintained that existing law already forbids waterboarding. "Staging a mock execution by including the misperception of drowning is a clear violation,'' he said. Edited February 14, 2008 by dmarc117 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonorator Posted February 14, 2008 Share Posted February 14, 2008 how do you explain the continued success of jack bauer's usage of these techniques? without them, several seasons could not have been completed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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