Donutrun Jellies Posted May 7, 2008 Share Posted May 7, 2008 The team is destined to lose if Vick is under center ... put him at WR or RB and you might have something Hey -- Remember, Vick is the most exciting animal abuser in the penitentiary system!! Don't be hating on him just because he was the next coming of Slash whose handlers wanted him to be a QB ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grits and Shins Posted May 7, 2008 Share Posted May 7, 2008 Never got a chance to see him with a good line or good WRs did we? Or are you still thinking that the problem with Falcons last year was that Vick was a distraction or because they actually sucked and Vick was the only one making them looking like a somewhat decent team. Because they look like the worst in the league without him. Vick's ability as a runner won them some games ... winning in that fashion gets you no where in the playoffs where real QBs are required. Having Vick under center is the formula for winning a couple more regular season games on his purely athletic ability to run the ball but never amounting to much in the playoffs, presuming the team ever even made the playoffs. Then eventually Vick was going to suffer an injury or age to the point where he could no longer rely on his legs then you could only have wished for a season like last year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
McBoog Posted May 7, 2008 Share Posted May 7, 2008 RB: OJ Simpson (convicted in civil court does that count??? )RB: Jamal Lewis Cecil Collins Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
broncosn05 Posted May 7, 2008 Share Posted May 7, 2008 Vick's ability as a runner won them some games ... winning in that fashion gets you no where in the playoffs where real QBs are required. Having Vick under center is the formula for winning a couple more regular season games on his purely athletic ability to run the ball but never amounting to much in the playoffs, presuming the team ever even made the playoffs. Then eventually Vick was going to suffer an injury or age to the point where he could no longer rely on his legs then you could only have wished for a season like last year. http://www.pro-football-reference.com/play...00_playoffs.htm He went 2-2 in the playoffs and really only struggled against Philly who absolutely killed ATL. Vick had so much "athletic ability" that even though the Falcons were an absolute trash team around him he was special enough to overcome it and lead them to the playoffs two years. And the debate is endless on what could've happen or what will happen in terms of injury, but 6 years in the league the guy was still the quickest and most elusive player in the NFL. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grits and Shins Posted May 7, 2008 Share Posted May 7, 2008 http://www.pro-football-reference.com/play...00_playoffs.htm He went 2-2 in the playoffs and really only struggled against Philly who absolutely killed ATL. Vick had so much "athletic ability" that even though the Falcons were an absolute trash team around him he was special enough to overcome it and lead them to the playoffs two years. And the debate is endless on what could've happen or what will happen in terms of injury, but 6 years in the league the guy was still the quickest and most elusive player in the NFL. ... he had one year in the playoffs where Atlanta caught lightening in a bottle but broke the bottle before claiming the ultimate prize ... and all of you Vick apologists believe that is proof of his QB prowess Nobody denies Vick had athletic ability ... it is the fact that his QB skills were on par with Ryan Leaf's that you Vick apologists like to argue against. Being "the quickest and most elusive player in the NFL" is not necessarily an attribute that makes you a good QB ... and as we saw in Vick's case it was to the detriment of his ability to be a QB because he always looked to run first, throw last. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
broncosn05 Posted May 7, 2008 Share Posted May 7, 2008 ... he had one year in the playoffs where Atlanta caught lightening in a bottle but broke the bottle before claiming the ultimate prize ... and all of you Vick apologists believe that is proof of his QB prowess Nobody denies Vick had athletic ability ... it is the fact that his QB skills were on par with Ryan Leaf's that you Vick apologists like to argue against. Being "the quickest and most elusive player in the NFL" is not necessarily an attribute that makes you a good QB ... and as we saw in Vick's case it was to the detriment of his ability to be a QB because he always looked to run first, throw last. Yeah sure as he threw 75%, 2TDs, and ran for 119 yards against STL in 2005. Hard to be a pass first QB when your line sucks and your receivers can't catch or get open. Being "the quickest and most elusive player in the NFL" did make him a good QB. Once again, he took the one of the least talented teams in the NFL to the playoffs twice. He was not a prototypical drop back and pass QB because he didn't have the players surrounding him to do so and also because he was able to do more. Hell ask any of the plethora of QBs last year if there is any way in hell to be a drop back passer with that line. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whomper Posted May 7, 2008 Share Posted May 7, 2008 Yeah sure as he threw 75%, 2TDs, and ran for 119 yards against STL in 2005. Hard to be a pass first QB when your line sucks and your receivers can't catch or get open. Being "the quickest and most elusive player in the NFL" did make him a good QB. Once again, he took the one of the least talented teams in the NFL to the playoffs twice. He was not a prototypical drop back and pass QB because he didn't have the players surrounding him to do so and also because he was able to do more. Hell ask any of the plethora of QBs last year if there is any way in hell to be a drop back passer with that line. It is not often that a QB that doesnt fit this mold wins a ring. Not a Vick knock just an observation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grits and Shins Posted May 7, 2008 Share Posted May 7, 2008 Yeah sure as he threw 75%, 2TDs, and ran for 119 yards against STL in 2005. Hard to be a pass first QB when your line sucks and your receivers can't catch or get open. Being "the quickest and most elusive player in the NFL" did make him a good QB. Once again, he took the one of the least talented teams in the NFL to the playoffs twice. He was not a prototypical drop back and pass QB because he didn't have the players surrounding him to do so and also because he was able to do more. Hell ask any of the plethora of QBs last year if there is any way in hell to be a drop back passer with that line. Always excuses. Hard to catch passes when they are no where near you. He wasn't a "prototypical drop back and pass QB" because he did not know how to be one. So what he took him to the playoffs twice ... once in the playoffs he amounted to nothing except for one brief moment. I expect if Atlanta has had the best o-line in history with hall of fame WRs that you would find some other reason why Vick sucked as a QB ... like the wind was blowing too hard or it was too hot in Atlanta. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keggerz Posted May 7, 2008 Author Share Posted May 7, 2008 Never got a chance to see him with a good line or good WRs did we? Or are you still thinking that the problem with Falcons last year was that Vick was a distraction or because they actually sucked and Vick was the only one making them looking like a somewhat decent team. Because they look like the worst in the league without him. 83/1202 6TDs for Roddy with a combo of Lefty/Harrington & Redman(am i forgetting any other great QBs that started for Atl last yr?) oh and that 1202 yards happened with one game being a 1 catch 4 yard game Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
broncosn05 Posted May 8, 2008 Share Posted May 8, 2008 It is not often that a QB that doesnt fit this mold wins a ring. Not a Vick knock just an observation. Understood, but not too many QBs can run a 4.25. Always excuses. Hard to catch passes when they are no where near you. He wasn't a "prototypical drop back and pass QB" because he did not know how to be one. So what he took him to the playoffs twice ... once in the playoffs he amounted to nothing except for one brief moment. I expect if Atlanta has had the best o-line in history with hall of fame WRs that you would find some other reason why Vick sucked as a QB ... like the wind was blowing too hard or it was too hot in Atlanta. Excuses? Maybe reasons. He never got the chance to be one or even try to be one in the NFL. What is the knock on Vick during the playoffs? He actually played well in 3 of the 4 games and like I said before ATL was completely demolished by Philly. 83/1202 6TDs for Roddy with a combo of Lefty/Harrington & Redman(am i forgetting any other great QBs that started for Atl last yr?) oh and that 1202 yards happened with one game being a 1 catch 4 yard game Right I had huge projections for Vick with the addition of that Cincy WR coach to our OC. Roddy made huge strides this year and developed into a solid WR. But don't you remember 2 years ago when the guy was dropping everything? And ATL absolutely sucked last year with the same team that Vick played with. At least admit that Vick was a MUCH better QB than Harrington, Leftwich, and the other tool. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whomper Posted May 8, 2008 Share Posted May 8, 2008 Understood, but not too many QBs can run a 4.25. I am not sure why I am going to engage in a conversation about an irrelevant inmate but here goes. If Vick had a stud O line and great Wrs would that negate the fact that he was not an accurate passer and still was quick to tuck the ball under and run ? McNabb earlier in his career was a terrific running qb but he can also drop back and throw if need be . I dont think Vick would flourish in a drop back roll even if he got the wrs you say he needed. I actually think it would have exposed him for the mediocre passing qb he really was. Even Rice/Largent and Randy Moss cant do much with ground balls Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grits and Shins Posted May 8, 2008 Share Posted May 8, 2008 I fail to understand what his ability to run a 4.25 has to do with in inability to read defenses or throw the ball. Doesn't the fact that you are citing his ability to run fast when discussing his ability to be a QB support my argument that he was a sub-par QB? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seahawks21 Posted May 8, 2008 Share Posted May 8, 2008 Vick cannot throw an accurate pass from me to the guy sitting across from me right now. Nor could he read a base defense. That said, his winning percentage was freakin' good, particularly when you figure in how terrible the talent on that football team has been over his tenure. I want a QB that wins, I really don't care how he does it. He was ugly but effective, which is infinitely better than a pretty throwing motion that doesn't win, ala Carson Palmer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grits and Shins Posted May 8, 2008 Share Posted May 8, 2008 Vick cannot throw an accurate pass from me to the guy sitting across from me right now. Nor could he read a base defense. That said, his winning percentage was freakin' good, particularly when you figure in how terrible the talent on that football team has been over his tenure. I want a QB that wins, I really don't care how he does it. He was ugly but effective, which is infinitely better than a pretty throwing motion that doesn't win, ala Carson Palmer. Big difference between winning in the regular season (in a crappy division) and winning in the post season. He got his teams tlo the playoffs once and managed to win 2 games. You can have all that you want as far as I'm concerned. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seahawks21 Posted May 8, 2008 Share Posted May 8, 2008 Neither Peyton Manning or Tom Brady could have gotten the least talented team in professional football to play in four playoff games, let alone win 2 of them. I am not a Vick apologist nor do I think he is the second coming, but the man used his tools and his competetive desire to find a way to win games. Can you imagine how good they would have been if they actually had a talented player or two on those teams? The guy was a winner and made his entire team better just with his presence on the field, which is far more important than say completion percentage and TD passes thrown. Terrible passer with a horrible throwing motion....yes. Winner...absolutely. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grits and Shins Posted May 8, 2008 Share Posted May 8, 2008 Neither Peyton Manning or Tom Brady could have gotten the least talented team in professional football to play in four playoff games, let alone win 2 of them. I am not a Vick apologist nor do I think he is the second coming, but the man used his tools and his competetive desire to find a way to win games. Can you imagine how good they would have been if they actually had a talented player or two on those teams? The guy was a winner and made his entire team better just with his presence on the field, which is far more important than say completion percentage and TD passes thrown. Terrible passer with a horrible throwing motion....yes. Winner...absolutely. Yeah right Vick was a superb athlete and was able to win some regular season games because of his athleticism. Being a superb athlete with sub-par skills does not win you very many playoff games and almost always results in zero championships. In the regular season you can get away with not having a QB ... in the playoffs when every team you face is good (unlike his crappy division) then you can no longer win on pure athleticism. I have not heard a single person argue that Vick was not a superb athlete who was a very agile, quick and fast runner. Unfortunately that skill set is more suited to a WR or a RB not a QB. Now if he had a head on his shoulders and could have actually read defenses he might have amounted to a decent QB ... especially if he could also have learned to throw the ball with just a moderate degree of accuracy. Take a look at past superbowl winners ... how many teams won the championship with a 'bus driver' QB ... you know a QB whose job was to minimize mistakes and make just enough completions to get the job done? Each of the those QBs (Dilfer) could pass with accuracy and read defenses. Now see how many teams won it all with a QB that was unable to pass the ball with any degree of accuracy, could not read defenses, was mistake prone and ran the ball more than he ever thought of throwing it. Then come back and tell me what an asset Vick was to his team. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seahawks21 Posted May 8, 2008 Share Posted May 8, 2008 (edited) Back in the day all good quarterbacks were the best athletes on their team. It has been decades since we have had an athlete like him playing quarterback in the NFL, so how would somebody like him have won anything?! It isn't possible. Not very many QB's in the last ten years have won two playoff games. Mike Vick is one of them. Who the heck cares how you get there as long as you win. Mike Vick won. Period. Who cares if he can't hit a barn. He won. He won in the playoffs at places no quarterbacks ever win. Did you just compare him to Dilfer?? Dilfer had 15 players on his team better than the Falcons second best player. Put VIck in Dilfer's place and he would have won the Super Bowl as well. In closing, the fact that we have never seen an athlete like Mike Vick play quarterback does not mean that an athletic quarterback cannot win. If Mike Vick lost more games than he won and never made it to the playoffs or won any in the playoffs, your argument would hold water. Just because he could not get the least talented team in the NFL to win a Super Bowl, alone does not mean that he is not a winner. I have never in my life seen a team that was so bad that somehow won so many games. You have to give Vick tons of credit for that, regardless. Edited May 8, 2008 by Seahawks21 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grits and Shins Posted May 8, 2008 Share Posted May 8, 2008 Back in the day all good quarterbacks were the best athletes on their team. It has been decades since we have had an athlete like him playing quarterback in the NFL, so how would somebody like him have won anything?! It isn't possible. Not very many QB's in the last ten years have won two playoff games. Mike Vick is one of them. Who the heck cares how you get there as long as you win. Mike Vick won. Period. Who cares if he can't hit a barn. He won. He won in the playoffs at places no quarterbacks ever win. Did you just compare him to Dilfer?? Dilfer had 15 players on his team better than the Falcons second best player. Put VIck in Dilfer's place and he would have won the Super Bowl as well. In closing, the fact that we have never seen an athlete like Mike Vick play quarterback does not mean that an athletic quarterback cannot win. If Mike Vick lost more games than he won and never made it to the playoffs or won any in the playoffs, your argument would hold water. Just because he could not get the least talented team in the NFL to win a Super Bowl, alone does not mean that he is not a winner. I have never in my life seen a team that was so bad that somehow won so many games. You have to give Vick tons of credit for that, regardless. You are right a comparison of Dilfer to Vick is ludicrous ... because Vick couldn't carry Dilfer's jock when it comes to the ability to actually be an NFL QB. Vick was able to win 2 games in the playoffs in a single year when he managed to catch lightening in a bottle ... but then the bubble burst and he was exposed for the fraud he was. You are insane if you truely believe that Vick could have replaced Dilfer and still take that team to a championship ... would not have happened. His team won so many games because of the poor division his team played in during Vick's tenure. Put Atlanta in any other conference during that time frame and his winning percentage drops dramatically. For some one who claims not to be a Vick apologist you sure do carry a torch for the man ... I guess love is blind. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keggerz Posted May 9, 2008 Author Share Posted May 9, 2008 Understood, but not too many QBs can run a 4.25. Excuses? Maybe reasons. He never got the chance to be one or even try to be one in the NFL. What is the knock on Vick during the playoffs? He actually played well in 3 of the 4 games and like I said before ATL was completely demolished by Philly. Right I had huge projections for Vick with the addition of that Cincy WR coach to our OC. Roddy made huge strides this year and developed into a solid WR. But don't you remember 2 years ago when the guy was dropping everything? And ATL absolutely sucked last year with the same team that Vick played with. At least admit that Vick was a MUCH better QB than Harrington, Leftwich, and the other tool. God that is sig worthy stuff right there and if Roddy was dropping stuff and now he is catching it you have to ask yourself why? Could it be that due to Vick's "erraticness" had a negative effect on WRs concentration? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seahawks21 Posted May 9, 2008 Share Posted May 9, 2008 You are right a comparison of Dilfer to Vick is ludicrous ... because Vick couldn't carry Dilfer's jock when it comes to the ability to actually be an NFL QB. That's it. Right there. I give up. Done. I can't believe this is actually happening. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Randall Posted May 9, 2008 Share Posted May 9, 2008 Michael Vick has been ordered to pay over $2.5 million to a bank in Canada after defaulting on a loan. At 12 cents an hour, Vick only has to scrub pots and pans for 28 million more hours to earn the money. He'll stand trial on state charges related to dogfighting in Virginia next month. Source: Atlanta Journal-Constitution Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grits and Shins Posted May 9, 2008 Share Posted May 9, 2008 That's it. Right there. I give up. Done. I can't believe this is actually happening. The strong get up after the truth slaps them in the face like that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gbpfan1231 Posted May 9, 2008 Share Posted May 9, 2008 Understood, but not too many QBs can run a 4.25. Excuses? Maybe reasons. He never got the chance to be one or even try to be one in the NFL. What is the knock on Vick during the playoffs? He actually played well in 3 of the 4 games and like I said before ATL was completely demolished by Philly. Right I had huge projections for Vick with the addition of that Cincy WR coach to our OC. Roddy made huge strides this year and developed into a solid WR. But don't you remember 2 years ago when the guy was dropping everything? And ATL absolutely sucked last year with the same team that Vick played with. At least admit that Vick was a MUCH better QB than Harrington, Leftwich, and the other tool. I am sure I will get crucified for asking this question.. Broncos - does your love for Vick have anything to do with him being a black QB? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seahawks21 Posted May 9, 2008 Share Posted May 9, 2008 The strong get up after the truth slaps them in the face like that. whatever guy, figure it out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WaterMan Posted May 9, 2008 Share Posted May 9, 2008 Boy he still isn't playing but has multi threads devoted to him. I figured someone who didn't matter in the NFL wouldn't be talked about this much. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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