War - Russia invades Georgia

[SEC=UGA]

Still sittin on the front porch with the hound dog, waitin for the rooskies to show themselves.

 

I've had to switch from georgia shine to beer, though, too long of a wait it seems, my still will be working over time before long.

[H8tank]

I think Bear fatty needs a history lesson from fecal blemish.

 

Lost amid all the controversies surrounding the Georgian tragedy is the sheer diabolic brilliance of the long-planned Russia invasion. Let us count the ways in which it is a win/win situation for Russia.

 

Read this.

[AtomicCEO]

It would be cooler if we had allies in Europe

 

When old European countries see Putin as more of an important ally than Bush, that ain't good.

[Savage Beatings]

What do you guys think about the responses so far from Obama and McCain to this situation?

[Azazello1313]

What do you guys think about the responses so far from Obama and McCain to this situation?

 

all either of their reponses can really be at this point is silly political posturing.

[Azazello1313]

I thought this was an interesting read on the situation.

 

snippet...

Georgia's unhappy fate is that it borders a new geopolitical fault line that runs along the western and southwestern frontiers of Russia. From the Baltics in the north through Central Europe and the Balkans to the Caucasus and Central Asia, a geopolitical power struggle has emerged between a resurgent and revanchist Russia on one side and the European Union and the United States on the other.

 

Putin's aggression against Georgia should not be traced only to its NATO aspirations or his pique at Kosovo's independence. It is primarily a response to the "color revolutions" in Ukraine and Georgia in 2003 and 2004, when pro-Western governments replaced pro-Russian ones. What the West celebrated as a flowering of democracy the autocratic Putin saw as geopolitical and ideological encirclement.

 

Ever since, Putin has been determined to stop and, if possible, reverse the pro-Western trend on his borders. He seeks not only to prevent Georgia and Ukraine from joining NATO but also to bring them under Russian control. Beyond that, he seeks to carve out a zone of influence within NATO, with a lesser security status for countries along Russia's strategic flanks. That is the primary motive behind Moscow's opposition to U.S. missile defense programs in Poland and the Czech Republic.

 

His war against Georgia is part of this grand strategy. Putin cares no more about a few thousand South Ossetians than he does about Kosovo's Serbs. Claims of pan-Slavic sympathy are pretexts designed to fan Russian great-power nationalism at home and to expand Russia's power abroad.

Edited August 13, 2008 by Azazello1313

[Ursa Majoris]

all either of their reponses can really be at this point is silly political posturing.

Agreed.

 

I thought this was an interesting read on the situation.

Sorry, I got as far as the opening paragraph and abandoned it. This Sudetenland "comparison" is ridiculous and to say that the Georgian bombardment of what they claim is their own civilians is unimportant is insane as well as flying in the face of part of the Iraq justification.

 

The details of who did what to precipitate Russia's war against Georgia are not very important. Do you recall the precise details of the Sudeten Crisis that led to Nazi Germany's invasion of Czechoslovakia? Of course not, because that morally ambiguous dispute is rightly remembered as a minor part of a much bigger drama.

[Azazello1313]

Agreed.

Sorry, I got as far as the opening paragraph and abandoned it. This Sudetenland "comparison" is ridiculous and to say that the Georgian bombardment of what they claim is their own civilians is unimportant is insane as well as flying in the face of part of the Iraq justification.

 

the point of the comparison is that when something like this is brewing for a long time, whatever happens to finally set it off isn't nearly as important as the developments leading to the tension in the first place. I really can't understand why you seem to have this obstinate refusal to see the big picture on this.

[AtomicCEO]

I really can't understand why you seem to have this obstinate refusal to see the big picture on this.

 

 

This from the guy who actively supported the invasion of Iraq and the Bush administration for the past 6 years.

 

Man, people can be so obstinate and dense... can't they?

Edited August 13, 2008 by AtomicCEO

[Ursa Majoris]

the point of the comparison is that when something like this is brewing for a long time, whatever happens to finally set it off isn't nearly as important as the developments leading to the tension in the first place. I really can't understand why you seem to have this obstinate refusal to see the big picture on this.

Surely the really important point here is that the region is a known powder keg and has been for decades. Everyone knows that Russia is resurgent and was likely spoiling for a fight. To gift wrap the exact excuse Putin was looking for - not only gift wrap it but deliver it by hand - speaks to a stupidity not only in the Georgian leadership but also elsewhere. I find it hard to believe that the Georgian president was not encouraged by implicit indications of support for any action he might take, indications that he may have misinterpreted but which nonetheless were likely present. He must have calculated that material Western support would be on hand. Absent insanity, why else would he have launched this attack?

 

And here's the bottom line on this "democratic ally" - democratic allies do not shell the bejesus out of their own people.

 

The realpolitik of the situation has not and will not change. Russia does have a historic - and justified - fear of being surrounded. Georgia adds nothing to NATO other than the ability for the US and the rest of the West to park troops and weaponry hundreds of miles closer to Moscow. If that's worth provoking the Russians even more, then fine. If, OTOH, the cooperation of the Russians against the likes of Iran is really desired, then let's quit this nonsense and move on.

[TimC]

The Georgian President had to simply call Bush and ask, "You got my back if I do this?"

 

Bush, of course, would've replied, "Hell no, you don't have oil. Ummmm, do you? Where the hell are you...in Atlanta or Savannah?"

[H8tank]

From the people who should know...

The United States is Georgia’s closest ally. It maintained about 130 military advisers in Georgia, along with civilian advisers, contractors involved in all aspects of the Georgian government and people doing business in Georgia. It is inconceivable that the Americans were unaware of Georgia’s mobilization and intentions. It is also inconceivable that the Americans were unaware that the Russians had deployed substantial forces on the South Ossetian frontier. U.S. technical intelligence, from satellite imagery and signals intelligence to unmanned aerial vehicles, could not miss the fact that thousands of Russian troops were moving to forward positions. The Russians clearly knew the Georgians were ready to move. How could the United States not be aware of the Russians? Indeed, given the posture of Russian troops, how could intelligence analysts have missed the possibility that the Russians had laid a trap, hoping for a Georgian invasion to justify its own counterattack?

 

It is very difficult to imagine that the Georgians launched their attack against U.S. wishes. The Georgians rely on the United States, and they were in no position to defy it. This leaves two possibilities. The first is a massive breakdown in intelligence, in which the United States either was unaware of the existence of Russian forces, or knew of the Russian forces but — along with the Georgians — miscalculated Russia’s intentions. The second is that the United States, along with other countries, has viewed Russia through the prism of the 1990s, when the Russian military was in shambles and the Russian government was paralyzed. The United States has not seen Russia make a decisive military move beyond its borders since the Afghan war of the 1970s-1980s. The Russians had systematically avoided such moves for years. The United States had assumed that the Russians would not risk the consequences of an invasion.

 

If this was the case, then it points to the central reality of this situation: The Russians had changed dramatically, along with the balance of power in the region. They welcomed the opportunity to drive home the new reality, which was that they could invade Georgia and the United States and Europe could not respond. As for risk, they did not view the invasion as risky. Militarily, there was no counter. Economically, Russia is an energy exporter doing quite well — indeed, the Europeans need Russian energy even more than the Russians need to sell it to them. Politically, as we shall see, the Americans needed the Russians more than the Russians needed the Americans. Moscow’s calculus was that this was the moment to strike. The Russians had been building up to it for months, as we have discussed, and they struck.

 

http://www.stratfor.com/weekly/russo_georg...d_balance_power

[H8tank]

"Peace at any cost! Negotiations! I'll sanction!"

 

That - is beautiful rhetoric from 'the one', hussein.

 

How does a real leader think?

 

When President Bush first met Russian President Vladimir Putin, he looked into his eyes and said he could trust him.

 

About the same time, John McCain said, "when I look into his eyes, I see a K, a G and a B" - the acronym of the Soviet Union's Stalinist secret police for whom torture and murder was a form of recreation.

 

Mr. McCain never trusted Mr. Putin. He believed the former KGB agent neither supported nor accepted the independence movement that swept Eastern Europe when the Evil Empire fell apart and ended up on the ash heap of history. When others were supporting Mr. Putin's bid for membership in the exclusive G-8 club of economic powers, Mr. McCain opposed it.

 

Events have proven Mr. McCain right from the beginning. Mr. Putin has crushed dissent in Russia, dismantled a free press, thrown corporate executives in prison on trumped-up state charges, took control of the country's oil and gas industry, and eliminated anyone who got in his way. Now he seems bent on reconstructing the old Soviet Union through military might.

 

Slam dunk.

[Jimmy Neutron]

It would be cooler if we had allies in Europe

 

When old European countries see Putin as more of an important ally than Bush, that ain't good.

 

When he built the infrastructure to deliver NG to greater europe?

[H8tank]

Negotiate!

 

It was nearly 2 a.m. on Wednesday when President Nicolas Sarkozy of France announced he had accomplished what seemed virtually impossible: Persuading the leaders of Georgia and Russia to agree to a set of principles that would stop the war.

 

Handshakes and congratulations were offered all around. But by the time the sun was up, Russian tanks were advancing again, this time taking positions around the strategically important city of Gori, in central Georgia.

 

[AtomicCEO]

Negotiate!

 

 

 

 

Who are you arguing against, and what are you arguing?

[Big F'n Dave]

Who are you arguing against, and what are you arguing?

 

Does it even matter?

[Ursa Majoris]

Does it even matter?

No. Not even remotely. It posted an article earlier in this thread that supported every word I'd posted earlier, proving beyond doubt that it can't read.

[H8tank]

Negotiate!

 

What conflict has a dem ever won?

[Ursa Majoris]

I'll leave the patently obvious answer to post #70 by the Huddle for someone else to smash out of the park.

[AtomicCEO]

Negotiate!

 

What conflict has a dem ever won?

 

 

You mean like Vietnam, Iraq, and the War on Terror?

How about the war on drugs?

 

The good thing about Dems is that they have avoided pointless conflict that use my tax dollars.

[Clubfoothead]

I'll leave the patently obvious answer to post #70 by the Huddle for someone else to smash out of the park.

 

I'm going to guess WWII.

 

Maybe tank hates FDR for winning that just like perch does.

[Furd]

Here's a take from Buchanan link

[Ursa Majoris]

Here's a take from Buchanan link

Exactly.

 

Americans have many fine qualities. A capacity to see ourselves as others see us is not high among them.

 

Imagine a world that never knew Ronald Reagan, where Europe had opted out of the Cold War after Moscow installed those SS-20 missiles east of the Elbe. And Europe had abandoned NATO, told us to go home and become subservient to Moscow.

 

How would we have reacted if Moscow had brought Western Europe into the Warsaw Pact, established bases in Mexico and Panama, put missile defense radars and rockets in Cuba, and joined with China to build pipelines to transfer Mexican and Venezuelan oil to Pacific ports for shipment to Asia? And cut us out? If there were Russian and Chinese advisers training Latin American armies, the way we are in the former Soviet republics, how would we react? Would we look with bemusement on such Russian behavior?

[TimC]

If we never had Republicans, you'd own a slave right now.