Dogs fighting...legal/moral question

[TimC]

Good solution. I like it. Keep us informed. This is a good one.

[Bird Dog]

What solution have you got for Jake now that he likes the taste of blood?

Edited September 3, 2008 by Bird Dog

[Bird Dog]

I have a Jack Russell that just goes ballistic when other dogs get near him when he is on a leash. AT the dog park, no problems. Yes he is an Alpha dog (it's a Jack Russell) but he understands that I am the ultimate alpha follows my lead but it still doesn't stop him from the same behavior Hitter saw in Jake when a dog gets near him while he is on a leash. Tried all the tricks above, doesn't work.

 

 

 

I would agree with Soup.... You agreed up front, and it causing a stink now (and yes it was 1000% his fault) could make living there a problem.

 

 

Have you tried it with a pinch collar?

[I Like Soup]

I actually did speak to my homeowner's insurance agent and he basically said that there was no way I was responsible as my dog was leashed. He used the analogy that if my dog was fenced and his unleashed dog entered the fenced area, I would not be responsible as my actions (containing my dog) were lawful and his were not (not containing his dogs).

 

My agent thought I was being an idiot for paying anything at all, but after I explained my the situation with the community, he thought it was a good idea. He stated that if Greg wanted me to go ahead and file the claim, they WOULD require a police report of the incident. THEY would then work directly with Greg to resolve the dispute. However, he also stated that the insurance company would use the fact that Greg was acting 'against the law' by letting his dogs roam unleashed, and they would deny any claim based on his negligence causing the injury. Greg has already paid the bill by then, so either he takes my offer of partial responsibility/partial payment or he would pay 100% as they would deny his claim.

 

So I think that's my road. Thanks again for the advice.

That does sound reasonable and an easy way to bring up the other incidentals (read; his dogs off a leash) without being direct about it. Good luck and I hope it works out for you!

[TimC]

Could we get a pic of Greg's wife now?

[rocknrobn26]

I actually did speak to my homeowner's insurance agent and he basically said that there was no way I was responsible as my dog was leashed. He used the analogy that if my dog was fenced and his unleashed dog entered the fenced area, I would not be responsible as my actions (containing my dog) were lawful and his were not (not containing his dogs).

 

My agent thought I was being an idiot for paying anything at all, but after I explained my the situation with the community, he thought it was a good idea. He stated that if Greg wanted me to go ahead and file the claim, they WOULD require a police report of the incident. THEY would then work directly with Greg to resolve the dispute. However, he also stated that the insurance company would use the fact that Greg was acting 'against the law' by letting his dogs roam unleashed, and they would deny any claim based on his negligence causing the injury. Greg has already paid the bill by then, so either he takes my offer of partial responsibility/partial payment or he would pay 100% as they would deny his claim.

 

So I think that's my road. Thanks again for the advice.

 

No offense, but (I don't think anyone has mentioned this) most leash laws are stated in such a way that it includes:

"Leashed and under control." In other words a leashed dog loose would not qualify, and in your case he was NOT under control! Sorry for saying this, but I believe it to be true. BUT, his loose dogs are no less guilty. This, I'm pretty sure would be a 50/50 split at best. I think the judge would have wiggle room and he/she could award a 25/75 in your favor. But there is a share you would be responsible for. I'm also sure you don't want to go to court over this, but that is my opinion. Have any of our lawyer Huddlers commented on this yet? Yo, et al?

 

 

Have you tried it with a pinch collar?

 

Sorry, those things just aggravate/pissoff an alpha dog at best. We have an alpha who on a pinch or regular collar was a pain to walk. We put a Gentle Leader on her, and now she's a pleasure to walk. Where the nose goes...the body follows. Sugar??? Comment please.

[keggerz]

Again, thanks for all the advice from everyone.

 

I just got a great tip from a friend and I think I'm gonna approach Greg this way. Apologize again and let him know how sorry I am that the incident occurred. Explain to him that I checked with my homeowner's insurance and they will indeed pay the bill, but they need a police report filed in order to complete the claim. I would think that Greg would kinda back off a little since a police report would find his dogs in violation of the leash laws. He may be more acceptable to partial responsibility and maybe offer to pay a portion of the bill at that time. If he doesn't offer that, then I proceed to call the police to report the incident and get a report.

 

Seems like it would be an amicable solution to the problem without making me out to be the neighborhood 'bad guy', right? I mean, I'm willing to pay his bill, but I just want to go through the proper (and legal) paperwork to do so. It would then be on him to decide how willing he is to 'work' this out outside of those proper channels.

 

Sound good? Any downside to this?

sounds like a reasonable course of action to persue, good luck

[Bird Dog]

Sorry, those things just aggravate/pissoff an alpha dog at best. We have an alpha who on a pinch or regular collar was a pain to walk. We put a Gentle Leader on her, and now she's a pleasure to walk. Where the nose goes...the body follows. Sugar??? Comment please.

 

 

I don't think so. Looks like we have another dog owner who's dog dosen't know the heel command.

[Furd]

I am in the "you said that you would pay for it, so you should pay for it" camp. I suppose in retrospect it might have been better for you to say that it was an unfortunate incident and that you would like a copy of the bill from the vet so that you can consider your options and a fair compromise.

 

As far as legal ramifications go, from a civil perspective, things are likely gray (as always). Sure, the other dog wasn't on a leash, but it sounds like your dog was the aggressor. Unless your state has some unusal law that precludes a pet owner from bringing a lawsuit in such a situation, you might have to defend yourself in small claims court. (And even if there is such a law, you're probably going to have to show up to court at least once.) And I'm willing to bet that after hearing what the case is about, the judge would tell you to split the damn thing, particularly if you said that you would pay for it. Local laws vary though.

 

You could submit this to your homeowners insurance carrier, and they will probably raise your premium in response, if covered by the policy. Would the result cost you as much as paying the vet bill? Maybe, over time. Maybe not.

 

Do I think it unreasonable for you to, after consideration, offer to pay 1/2 the bill? Not really. But, IMO, you said that you would pay, so you should do the honorable thing and pay.

[Sugar Magnolia]

Sorry, those things just aggravate/pissoff an alpha dog at best. We have an alpha who on a pinch or regular collar was a pain to walk. We put a Gentle Leader on her, and now she's a pleasure to walk. Where the nose goes...the body follows. Sugar??? Comment please.

 

 

I don't like pinch collars or choke chains. I don't like leash popping and flipping dogs who are aggressive because it can backfire and make the behavior worse. In a previous post I mentioned dogs aggress because of stress, anxiety and frustration. So, the dog is already stressed and now he has to worry about when the leash gets popped which hurts the dog. Now the dog is more stressed around the other dog. Also when you apply punishment it has to be administered within 1 second of the behavior or the dog doesn't understand why he is being punished. You may actually be applying the punishment when the dog has stopped aggressing. If our timing is poor we are confusing the dog adding more frustration.

 

I do like the Gentle Leader since it turns the head first and the body follows. So you can guide the dog away from the distraction and then tell him what you want him to do.

 

I use counter conditioning and desensitization methods. Counterconditiong is teaching the dog that what used to bring bad things now bring good things. I do this through a reward system. Desensitization is a process where you gradually bring the object that is scaring the dog closer and closer and setting him up to succeed and rewarding him. It is the do no harm approach and how most trainers are training these days despite what you are seeing on the National Geographic station.

 

Let's say you had a phobia of snakes. Would you rather have someone put a choke collar or shock collar around your neck and then have snakes put right in up in your face and everytime you showed fear or reacted, someone choked you or shocked you? Or would you rather have someone place a snake at a distance where you could relax, and when you remained calm you got a $20 bill. Then told if you stepped one step closer and remained calm, you'd get another $20 bill, and so one until once you finally touched the snake, you got $100. This stuff works and you don't have to "dominate" or "intimidate" or dog.

 

I'd much rather have a relationship with my dog that is of mutual trust and mutual respect, than one of my dog fearing the consequences of what I might do to him if he doesn't offer the right behavior.

[Clubfoothead]

I am in the "you said that you would pay for it, so you should pay for it" camp. I suppose in retrospect it might have been better for you to say that it was an unfortunate incident and that you would like a copy of the bill from the vet so that you can consider your options and a fair compromise.

 

As far as legal ramifications go, from a civil perspective, things are likely gray (as always). Sure, the other dog wasn't on a leash, but it sounds like your dog was the aggressor. Unless your state has some unusal law that precludes a pet owner from bringing a lawsuit in such a situation, you might have to defend yourself in small claims court. (And even if there is such a law, you're probably going to have to show up to court at least once.) And I'm willing to bet that after hearing what the case is about, the judge would tell you to split the damn thing, particularly if you said that you would pay for it. Local laws vary though.

 

You could submit this to your homeowners insurance carrier, and they will probably raise your premium in response, if covered by the policy. Would the result cost you as much as paying the vet bill? Maybe, over time. Maybe not.

 

Do I think it unreasonable for you to, after consideration, offer to pay 1/2 the bill? Not really. But, IMO, you said that you would pay, so you should do the honorable thing and pay.

 

Furd is the wurd. IMHO.

[Bird Dog]

Sorry, those things just aggravate/pissoff an alpha dog at best. We have an alpha who on a pinch or regular collar was a pain to walk. We put a Gentle Leader on her, and now she's a pleasure to walk. Where the nose goes...the body follows. Sugar??? Comment please.

 

 

I don't like pinch collars or choke chains. I don't like leash popping and flipping dogs who are aggressive because it can backfire and make the behavior worse. In a previous post I mentioned dogs aggress because of stress, anxiety and frustration. So, the dog is already stressed and now he has to worry about when the leash gets popped which hurts the dog. Now the dog is more stressed around the other dog. Also when you apply punishment it has to be administered within 1 second of the behavior or the dog doesn't understand why he is being punished. You may actually be applying the punishment when the dog has stopped aggressing. If our timing is poor we are confusing the dog adding more frustration.

 

I do like the Gentle Leader since it turns the head first and the body follows. So you can guide the dog away from the distraction and then tell him what you want him to do.

 

I use counter conditioning and desensitization methods. Counterconditiong is teaching the dog that what used to bring bad things now bring good things. I do this through a reward system. Desensitization is a process where you gradually bring the object that is scaring the dog closer and closer and setting him up to succeed and rewarding him. It is the do no harm approach and how most trainers are training these days despite what you are seeing on the National Geographic station.

 

Let's say you had a phobia of snakes. Would you rather have someone put a choke collar or shock collar around your neck and then have snakes put right in up in your face and everytime you showed fear or reacted, someone choked you or shocked you? Or would you rather have someone place a snake at a distance where you could relax, and when you remained calm you got a $20 bill. Then told if you stepped one step closer and remained calm, you'd get another $20 bill, and so one until once you finally touched the snake, you got $100. This stuff works and you don't have to "dominate" or "intimidate" or dog.

 

I'd much rather have a relationship with my dog that is of mutual trust and mutual respect, than one of my dog fearing the consequences of what I might do to him if he doesn't offer the right behavior.

 

 

 

The problem lies with owners who don't know what they are doing. They get these dogs then think well that's it. Here's your food and water boy

 

The gentle so called collar is not a fix it's masking the problem. It even says so on there web-site.

 

Robins or Hitters dog would have never had this problem if they were taught the Whoa and heel command.

 

This is the way i have taught many very successful and happy dogs to heel .

 

Btw, i have a GSP that is currently ranked 14th in the country right now in field trials.

 

I prefer to use a 2 prong training collar but a slip collar is alright if the dog responds to it.

 

The dog must first under stand sit.This means sit until Icommand you to do other wise. If the dog does not know this or does not do it well under any condiction, work on that first.

 

With the dog on the left side and the lead in front of you and held with looseness in the right hand only, step off with the left foot first so the dog has a cue to watch for , while giving a sharp snap on the leash at the same time.

 

While walking you should move at a brisk pace, rather than lagging, as the dog should have to watch you closely and keep up with you as opposed to strolling along.

 

 

At first, turn only to the right and walk in circles of different sizes. This makes the dog have to watch you and walk at your speed to stay in the proper position. If the dog is correct, the lead should be kept loose. If the dog lags, forges or goes wide correct him by sharply snapping the lead and collar.

 

 

By this method, the dog learns to move when you move and stay in the correct position.

 

When stopping, stop on your left foot , again so the dog has a cue to watch and give a sharp snap backwards on the lead at the same time. You can use your left had on the lead to accomplish this but be sure to let go of the lead as soon as you have corrected him.

 

Your goal is to have a dog that starts when you do, follows your movement in the correct position and stops when you do. as a dog tends to anticipate the corrections he will learn to use his faster speed to start and stop before you can correct. he will walk in the correct position for the same reason.

 

Once he is starting, heeling and stopping correctly while turning to the right begin to teach the left turn.

 

In this you will turn sharply into the dog and he must give up his position and move out of your way. Some quick snaps of the lead as well as a few well placed knees to the side of his head and he will use his superior ability to maintain the proper position.

 

After the dog has been taught the proper positions and movements of heeling you can then add a quiet voice to transfer the signals . Still rely on the lead for some time as he learns to make no mistakes.

 

Once he has the pattern very well learned you can use a toy, bumper, bird wing, or even food to encourgae him to do his best at the pattern.

 

 

Do not use the food or toy as a bribe to teach the dog to heel. The dog must learn he heel because he has been commanded to.

 

He gets the toy or treat only when he complies with the command and does it well.

 

No, dog should be let out of the house without knowing basic commands such as sit, stay, come, heel and whoa.

 

Most of important the whoa or and heel command could one day saves his life. Ever have a dog run out in the street after a rabbit or cat? How's the gentle collar gonna stop him? What in the end has it taught him when his off the leash? The whoa or heel command could if done the right way.

[rocknrobn26]

I don't think so. Looks like we have another dog owner who's dog dosen't know the heel command.

Wrong! The gentle leader is much better than the prong collar! I don't want to get nasty here, but you have thrown down a gauntlet that I can't ignore.

My dog knows all the commands. Your subservient statement is so off course I can't even comment on it.

Don't speak from what you don't know!

[Sugar Magnolia]

 

The problem lies with owners who don't know what they are doing. They get these dogs then think well that's it. Here's your food and water boy

 

The gentle so called collar is not a fix it's masking the problem. It even says so on there web-site.

 

Robins or Hitters dog would have never had this problem if they were taught the Whoa and heel command.

 

This is the way i have taught many very successful and happy dogs to heel .

 

Btw, i have a GSP that is currently ranked 14th in the country right now in field trials.

 

I prefer to use a 2 prong training collar but a slip collar is alright if the dog responds to it.

 

The dog must first under stand sit.This means sit until Icommand you to do other wise. If the dog does not know this or does not do it well under any condiction, work on that first.

 

With the dog on the left side and the lead in front of you and held with looseness in the right hand only, step off with the left foot first so the dog has a cue to watch for , while giving a sharp snap on the leash at the same time.

 

While walking you should move at a brisk pace, rather than lagging, as the dog should have to watch you closely and keep up with you as opposed to strolling along.

 

 

At first, turn only to the right and walk in circles of different sizes. This makes the dog have to watch you and walk at your speed to stay in the proper position. If the dog is correct, the lead should be kept loose. If the dog lags, forges or goes wide correct him by sharply snapping the lead and collar.

 

 

By this method, the dog learns to move when you move and stay in the correct position.

 

When stopping, stop on your left foot , again so the dog has a cue to watch and give a sharp snap backwards on the lead at the same time. You can use your left had on the lead to accomplish this but be sure to let go of the lead as soon as you have corrected him.

 

Your goal is to have a dog that starts when you do, follows your movement in the correct position and stops when you do. as a dog tends to anticipate the corrections he will learn to use his faster speed to start and stop before you can correct. he will walk in the correct position for the same reason.

 

Once he is starting, heeling and stopping correctly while turning to the right begin to teach the left turn.

 

In this you will turn sharply into the dog and he must give up his position and move out of your way. Some quick snaps of the lead as well as a few well placed knees to the side of his head and he will use his superior ability to maintain the proper position.

 

After the dog has been taught the proper positions and movements of heeling you can then add a quiet voice to transfer the signals . Still rely on the lead for some time as he learns to make no mistakes.

 

Once he has the pattern very well learned you can use a toy, bumper, bird wing, or even food to encourgae him to do his best at the pattern.

 

 

Do not use the food or toy as a bribe to teach the dog to heel. The dog must learn he heel because he has been commanded to.

 

He gets the toy or treat only when he complies with the command and does it well.

 

No, dog should be let out of the house without knowing basic commands such as sit, stay, come, heel and whoa.

 

Most of important the whoa or and heel command could one day saves his life. Ever have a dog run out in the street after a rabbit or cat? How's the gentle collar gonna stop him? What in the end has it taught him when his off the leash? The whoa or heel command could if done the right way.

 

My Gordon Setter was the 2nd ranked Gordon Setter agility dog in the country in 2001 before I retired him, and he has placed in field trials. That gives me squat credentials on dealing with a dog who has good basic training skills but now has dog-dog aggression issues.

 

What gives me the credentials is taking a 6 week course on working aggression issues with Trish King, who is one of the top trainer/behaviorists in the country, and a nationally reowned speaker. Plus taking an additional 100+ hours of seminars from PHd Applied Animals behaviorists and trainers such as Dr. Patricia McConnell, Dr. Pam Reid, Dr. Ian Dunbar, Dr. Suzanne Hetts, Dr. Roger Abrantes, Jean Donaldson, Brenda Aloff, Pia Sivani, and Kathy Sdao.

[Bird Dog]

You are correct in it being your opinion which is just that an opinion. You're not an expert and the possibility exists that your application may not work for everyone. Your statements are absolute and only one thing is absolute.....death. Everyone has to die.

 

But that's just my opinion.

[untateve]

You are correct in it being your opinion which is just that an opinion. You're not an expert and the possibility exists that your application may not work for everyone. Your statements are absolute and only one thing is absolute.....death. Everyone has to die.

 

But that's just my opinion.

 

define "death."

[Sugar Magnolia]

One thing we do agree on is that dogs do need to heel next to their owner and when I work leash aggression cases if the dog does not have good leash walking skills we have to work on that first. But in the case of Jake, the dog does have good leash walking skills accoring to Hitter and I trust him that he is upfront and honest about what he has taught his dog. But, a dog with the best leash walking skills who is approached by a dog off leash, with no history of aggressing, good leash walking skills could not have prevented what happened. Hitter was thrown totally off guard that Jake would ever aggress, so he allowed these dogs to meet Jake. Now that Hitter has this information, the leash walking skills Jake has can be put to good use to prevent this from occurring again. When you accussed Hitter of not training his dog, I don't think you read, comprehended or believed his original post.

 

I don't have one recipe for every aggressive dog I work with, and I have used choke chains, pinch collars, and collar corrections and leash pops to correct aggression in the past, but find reward based training works for me much better. I will put more correction in the training for dogs who have alpha/leadership issues, but don't use it exclusively. I apologize for making my statement sound absolute. Strictly correction training with no praise like Cesar Milan uses does work, but I feel my methods work better, at least for me and my clients, mamy who have already seen trainers whose methods more closely align with Cesars. In fact, I have had two of Cesar's clients who moved here from So. Cal.

 

You have stated that I am not an expert which I will accept since that is a subjective term but I have worked with over 150 aggressive dogs, some who have sent people and dogs to the emergency room and emergency vet. The local vets, and the humane society refer me business and most do exclusively over other trainers in town. I am reguarly consulted by the humane society for dogs who come into their shelter and put a temperament testing program in place for them to make sure safe dogs go out into the community. So, my experience and success rate is very extensive. I also have a solid background in animal science.

 

I also would add that, IMO, a prong collar unless used along with training only masks the problem as well. Dog pulls, it hurts when the feel the pain around their neck, so they don't pull. A Gentle Leader works because the dog pulls, they feel pressure on the face so they don't pull. Both are aids to teach proper leash walking but both don't teach the dog anything unless training to show them the right place to be is also implemented. You can train heelwork just as easily with a GL as a prong/pinch collar

 

So, we can agree to disagree and leave it at that.

[Azazello1313]

bird dog vs. SM

[Bird Dog]

bird dog vs. SM

 

 

Lol...

 

Here's my website!

Edited September 4, 2008 by Bird Dog

[TimC]

Who's the homo in the orange hat?

[I Like Soup]

bird dog vs. SM

Holy crap I just busted out laughing here at work!

 

F'n hilarious!

[I Like Soup]

Lol...

 

Here's my website!

 

http://www.zeusgundog.com/index.html

Aha, that is what GSP stands for.

 

I was thinking George St. Pierre but I figured you'd woulda got your ass handed to you if you put a choke collar on that guy.

[Bird Dog]

HA..Ha,,,

[Sugar Magnolia]

If you would like to see how I train go here:

 

http://kohd.com/infocus

 

The dogs are all dogs who are currently or have been in my training classes, except the off leash recall and agility segments which are using my own dogs.

[detlef]

If you would like to see how I train go here:

 

http://kohd.com/infocus

 

The dogs are all dogs who are currently or have been in my training classes, except the off leash recall and agility segments which are using my own dogs.

I doubt he cares. He's merely an a-hole who preaches that there's one way and only one way to deal with things and then accuses anyone who disagrees of speaking in absolutes. That's enough for me. No need for you to show your qualifications around here SM, you have been and will certainly still remain the Huddle go-to for dog questions.