Concrete or asphalt?

[Ursa Majoris]

Getting a new driveway put in and the old one completely ripped out. Can't decide between concrete or asphalt, though the latter is considerably less expensive.

 

What are the pros and cons? For those that don't know, I live in Minnesota which has been known to get chilly in the winter.

[cre8tiff]

Concrete adds value to the house. I dunno how frost heave affects concrete up there, I think asphalt is more forgiving of ground movement...

[Ursa Majoris]

Concrete adds value to the house. I dunno how frost heave affects concrete up there, I think asphalt is more forgiving of ground movement...

Most of my street has gone for concrete though I'm concerned about it cracking. I do have a very highly recommended contractor lined up.

 

Any other opinions?

[cre8tiff]

Any other opinions?

 

Yeah, you're overly hairy, too.

Edited April 23, 2009 by cre8tiff

[alexgaddis]

A Moat with a wooden drawbridge

[Hugh 0ne]

If the concrete is done right for your location meaning your climate it is a much better option and will last much longer. Concrete is low maintenance but harder to repair. Asphalt needs to be sealed regularly. Concrete can be colored (stained) to match stones/brick/house.

 

If you can afford it, concrete is the way to go as long as it's done right.

Edited April 23, 2009 by Hugh 0ne

[Double Agent]

Yeah, you're overly hairy, too.

 

[Hugh 0ne]

A few more things. Concrete can get damaged from salt, so if you plan on salting your driveway in those cold MN winters, it might not be a good choice. In a cold climate, as mentioned, it's imperative that the concrete is done right for that particular climate, a local guy should be able to tell you specifically what needs to be done, like compacting a heavy gravel base, proper rebar, proper pre-pour, and proper ratio mix, etc. Also, concrete is a beyatch to repair, asphalt is much easier, but concrete will last longer and is virtually maintenance free, where you'll be sealing your asphalt every 3 years or so. Asphalt gets soft in real warm weather too, which probably isn't a major concern for MN.

[keggerz]

paving stones

 

http://www.greenspirelandscaping.com/truth.asp

 

http://www.icpi.org/myproject/ComparisonBrochureAug2005.pdf

Edited April 23, 2009 by keggerz

[Hugh 0ne]

paving stones

 

http://www.greenspirelandscaping.com/truth.asp

 

http://www.icpi.org/myproject/ComparisonBrochureAug2005.pdf

 

Pavers are nice but you wanna talk about high-maintenance and high costs? Especially in a cold climate where water gets under the pavers and freezes and they move and have to be re-set every couple years. I don't think that's a good option for Minnesota winters, I wouldn't even do it in New York where the winters are milder for the same reasons. Very high cost, very high maintenance.

[Ursa Majoris]

If the concrete is done right for your location meaning your climate it is a much better option and will last much longer. Concrete is low maintenance but harder to repair. Asphalt needs to be sealed regularly. Concrete can be colored (stained) to match stones/brick/house.

 

If you can afford it, concrete is the way to go as long as it's done right.

 

 

A few more things. Concrete can get damaged from salt, so if you plan on salting your driveway in those cold MN winters, it might not be a good choice. In a cold climate, as mentioned, it's imperative that the concrete is done right for that particular climate, a local guy should be able to tell you specifically what needs to be done, like compacting a heavy gravel base, proper rebar, proper pre-pour, and proper ratio mix, etc. Also, concrete is a beyatch to repair, asphalt is much easier, but concrete will last longer and is virtually maintenance free, where you'll be sealing your asphalt every 3 years or so. Asphalt gets soft in real warm weather too, which probably isn't a major concern for MN.

 

It can reach 100 here in the summer, which gives us a temperature swing of up to 120 degrees or more. Not planning on salting the drive though we do the path, of course. Concrete sounds like a much better option and that's what I was leaning towards though I thought I'd check with the Internet's greatest bunch of experts.

 

I have an excellent contractor lined up who does all his work here and has outstanding reviews going back years.

[keggerz]

Pavers are nice but you wanna talk about high-maintenance and high costs? Especially in a cold climate where water gets under the pavers and freezes and they move and have to be re-set every couple years. I don't think that's a good option for Minnesota winters, I wouldn't even do it in New York where the winters are milder for the same reasons. Very high cost, very high maintenance.

the do make a snow melt system and ursa is made of money and has to be close to retirement so he will have plenty of time to putz around his yard to deal wtih stuff like this

[TimC]

Previous house had a small driveway and I went with concrete. This house has a hugh driveway so I went asphalt. The concrete looks about a million times better. I would've gone concrete with this house if it wasn't so cost-prohibitive. It blows asphalt away.

[rocknrobn26]

If the concrete is done right for your location meaning your climate it is a much better option and will last much longer. Concrete is low maintenance but harder to repair. Asphalt needs to be sealed regularly. Concrete can be colored (stained) to match stones/brick/house.

 

If you can afford it, concrete is the way to go as long as it's done right.

 

 

A few more things. Concrete can get damaged from salt, so if you plan on salting your driveway in those cold MN winters, it might not be a good choice. In a cold climate, as mentioned, it's imperative that the concrete is done right for that particular climate, a local guy should be able to tell you specifically what needs to be done, like compacting a heavy gravel base, proper rebar, proper pre-pour, and proper ratio mix, etc. Also, concrete is a beyatch to repair, asphalt is much easier, but concrete will last longer and is virtually maintenance free, where you'll be sealing your asphalt every 3 years or so. Asphalt gets soft in real warm weather too, which probably isn't a major concern for MN.

 

Good points. Add:

If the sun hits your driveway, it will melt the snow faster w/ asphalt.

Spalling is a big problem w/ cold climate concrete. The outer "skin" pops off revealing the aggregate.

Sealing is cheap (~$60 for 500 sq. ft. by a contractor) and every 2 years is more realistic. Don't do it every year. Do it when it starts to appear gray.

You can do asphalt 2 to 3 times and still be cheaper than concrete.

Make sure the base is solid. I had mine dug out 3' and had new stone put in. Not a big option but well worth it. They put the asphalt in after a month for compacting.

Concrete stains easily. (Oil, grease, etc.. Even if your cars don't leak, other people's, contractors, etc. cars/trucks who park there might.) This was my pet peeve when I had concrete.

You have to water (cure the concrete) it everyday for at least 2 weeks and stay off of it for a week. I think it was 2 days w/ asphalt, but that could vary w/ the ambient temperature.

Asphalt can crack also, but settling is the bigger problem.

What do most of your neighbors have? You don't want to be the only one or in the vast minority w/ either.

I had concrete w/ the old house and currently asphalt. Mine is about 13+yo and still looks great.

[Perchoutofwater]

Have you priced both? Depending on the shape of your driveway, concrete may actually be cheaper. The reason for this is oil prices are still relatively high, and the machine that lays asphalt does not corner well, so if you have a real curvy drive, more will have to be done by hand, jacking up the cost. I know two years ago did a building, and just for kicks had them put in an alternate to go to concrete in lieu of asphalt because oil prices were rising. We figured, if the owner could get a concrete drive for $30,000 to $40,000 more than an asphalt drive he'd want to take it. When bids came in the concrete was actually $20,000 cheaper. The asphalt guys attributed to the price of oil (which at the time was about what it is now) and the curves in the parking lot.

 

Concrete is it is going to crack. All concrete cracks, anyone that tells you otherwise is lying. So make sure you have properly spaced control joints and expansion joints. You want control joints at least every 15 feet and expansion joints every 45 feet. BTW if you go with stamped concrete, depending on the pattern, the indentations can be used as control joints. Make sure the temperature is 40 degrees and rising when you pour, and that it will remain above 40 degrees for 8 hours. With regard to reinforcing, unless you have a hugh motor home you can get by with #4 rebar at 16" o.c bw, or 6x6 WWM. If you have the motor home stick with the #4, that might be much for WWM. You don't have to worry about salt affecting the concrete. If the proper mix design is used, and rebar is not exposed (should be suspended in the middle vertically, and should be 2 to 3" from the edge) you will not have any problems. I doubt the plant up there would send anything out that can't be salted, but you can always ask to make sure, and they can give you a mix design that will work.

 

I wouldn't do asphalt if I could help it. It breaks down too easily. Spilling gas on it will cause it to break down. I believe it is more prone do damage due to the cold than is concrete. I is truly and inferior product that for the most part was only used because of the major savings that could be had using it. With oil where it is now, I don't think the savings would be worth the trade off in durability.

 

Regardless of which way you go, you will want a good base, though the base is even more important if you use asphalt. You can put 5" concrete on a 6" select fill compacted to 95% and you will be good. If you go with asphalt you probably want 6" of select fill, and then either 10" of Grade 2 flex base and 2" of Type "D" HMAC or 7"of Grade 2 flex base with 3" of Type "D" HMAC. Which ever you can get cheaper.

[Perchoutofwater]

Good points. Add:

If the sun hits your driveway, it will melt the snow faster w/ asphalt. True

Spalling is a big problem w/ cold climate concrete. The outer "skin" pops off revealing the aggregate. This is caused by the concrete being over worked and having too much of the "cream rising to the top. Properly finished concrete should not have spalding regardless of temperature.

Sealing is cheap (~$60 for 500 sq. ft. by a contractor) and every 2 years is more realistic. Don't do it every year. Do it when it starts to appear gray.

You can do asphalt 2 to 3 times and still be cheaper than concrete. While this might have been true 10 years ago, in some case asphalt is more expensive than concrete now, depending on price of oil, and shape of driveway.

Make sure the base is solid. I had mine dug out 3' and had new stone put in. Not a big option but well worth it. They put the asphalt in after a month for compacting. I agree 100% I don't care what you use if the base is not good, the driveway will fall apart.

Concrete stains easily. (Oil, grease, etc.. Even if your cars don't leak, other people's, contractors, etc. cars/trucks who park there might.) This was my pet peeve when I had concrete. They make cleaning solutions now that will take care of anything on concrete, though it will eat through asphalt.

You have to water (cure the concrete) it everyday for at least 2 weeks and stay off of it for a week. I think it was 2 days w/ asphalt, but that could vary w/ the ambient temperature. I respectfully disagree. With concrete you can saw cut the control joints the next day as well as spray it with cure & seal. With the concrete, you are going to want to get test breaks, if your plant is anything like the ones we use down here you will be breaking at 100% in 3 to 7 day, typically 3. With asphalt it really depends on the temperature. If it is 90 degrees during the day, then you need two days curing time, but if it is 60 degrees during the day, you can get on it the next day.

Asphalt can crack also, but settling is the bigger problem. True, you are also more likely to get weeds popping through with asphalt.

What do most of your neighbors have? You don't want to be the only one or in the vast minority w/ either.

I had concrete w/ the old house and currently asphalt. Mine is about 13+yo and still looks great.

[Big John]

Concrete adds value to the house. I dunno how frost heave affects concrete up there, I think asphalt is more forgiving of ground movement...

Yep, asphalt is consider to be "flexible pavement" because it can morph with adjustments to the base. Concrete is "rigid" as once it sets, it is not flexible, so it needs more base prep to make sure the base is presettled and such so that does not become a factor.

[Big John]

For rebar, for a driveway it is lightly traveled oi it may not be needed except at the joints if even that. For a residential driveway, it would help stop uneven heaving which cause one slab to be higher than the adjacent slab. Concrete is good in compression and poor in tension, so the rebar in reinforced concrete takes over the tensile forces. For a driveway, the tensile forces are minimal at most since vehicles are pushing down on it and no pulling or twisting actions occur, so full reinforcement is not needed.

 

The problem with salt is that it affects the chemical reaction in the cement used to harden and bond the concrete. Excessive salt exposure can have that effect so it is better the clear the salt once the ice is melted from it.

[Perchoutofwater]

For rebar, for a driveway it is lightly traveled oi it may not be needed except at the joints if even that. For a residential driveway, it would help stop uneven heaving which cause one slab to be higher than the adjacent slab. Concrete is good in compression and poor in tension, so the rebar in reinforced concrete takes over the tensile forces. For a driveway, the tensile forces are minimal at most since vehicles are pushing down on it and no pulling or twisting actions occur, so full reinforcement is not needed.

 

The problem with salt is that it affects the chemical reaction in the cement used to harden and bond the concrete. Excessive salt exposure can have that effect so it is better the clear the salt once the ice is melted from it.

 

So basically your saying he doesn't need any reinforcing? Wow you guys sure do change when your stamp isn't on the line

[Big John]

So basically your saying he doesn't need any reinforcing? Wow you guys sure do change when your stamp isn't on the line

I would for an enclosed driveway since other forces are in effect or possibly a commercial driveway as heavier forces are in effect increasing the need.

 

Even for concrete highways, they can be continuously reinforced or use dowel bars just at the joints. It is usually the highway agency's preference on which way to go. (Georgia mostly goes with asphalt, but uses the continuously reinforcement for concrete, and Wisconsin and Illinois mostly use just the dowels at the joints for their concrete highways.)

[Perchoutofwater]

I would for an enclosed driveway since other forces are in effect or possibly a commercial driveway as heavier forces are in effect increasing the need.

 

Even for concrete highways, they can be continuously reinforced or use dowel bars just at the joints. It is usually the highway agency's preference on which way to go. (Georgia mostly goes with asphalt, but uses the continuously reinforcement for concrete, and Wisconsin and Illinois mostly use just the dowels at the joints for their concrete highways.)

 

I've never put in any drives, parking lots, or for that matter sidewalks without continuous reinforcing, with the exception of temporary side walks that we know we will be tearing up at the end of the job. That just blows my mind.

[rocknrobn26]

Here the code is a mesh, in the middle of a 4"-5" pour. My town inspector was adimate (sp) about being there when they were pouring to make sure they raised the mesh to the middle. The mesh basically holds the concrete together when a crack happens, and as you said Perch, all concrete cracks, but should be controlled by expansion and control joints.

 

Spalling is a big problem w/ cold climate concrete. The outer "skin" pops off revealing the aggregate. This is caused by the concrete being over worked and having too much of the "cream rising to the top. Properly finished concrete should not have spalding regardless of temperature.

 

That is one cause, but in our type of climate, the freeze/thaw cycles are the bigger offender. Salt can cause spalling due to the heat generated in a cold atmosphere. BUT there are concrete friendly de-icers in liquid and solid form. Still most concrete people around here still tell you to use nothing for at least 2 years. Sand, kitty litter, etc. are ok, but they create a mess in the house.

 

As far as cost diff...get an estimate for both. Oil prices were not a concern when I got mine. The diff then was $1000 for ~500 sq. ft. for asphalt and $3500 for concrete. Ithink part of that is, you need a pretty experienced finishers for concrete (They make very good $$$ here) vs just "bull" labor for asphalt.

 

Whatever you do Ursa, try to get it done during our temperate temps and not the extremes. And whatever you do, if you decide to go w/ concrete, don't even consider doing it unless the day's hi & lo are above 45⁰. If a freeze sets in shortly after the pour you are gonna have problems down the line, regardless of the contractor telling you that the supplier adjusts the mix for temperature (Adding Ammonia, I think) Concrete plants around here NEVER close. The asphalt plants are usually closed by November.

Edited April 23, 2009 by rocknrobn26

[Ursa Majoris]

Thanks for all the responses, folks.

 

Perch - it's about 105-110 square yards is all and almost an exact rectangle except a tiny bit right by the curb. I'm thinking of cutting a deal and having my aging slab patio hauled out and the concrete guy can replace that too - might get a break if he can do two jobs at once. The patio has been in over a dozen years and has sunk slightly.