CaP'N GRuNGe Posted October 8, 2009 Share Posted October 8, 2009 and her husband dead in apparent domestic dispute. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big F'n Dave Posted October 9, 2009 Share Posted October 9, 2009 I wonder who drew down on whom? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yo mama Posted October 9, 2009 Share Posted October 9, 2009 (edited) I wonder who drew down on whom? That's a good question. Edited October 9, 2009 by yo mama Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MojoMan Posted October 9, 2009 Share Posted October 9, 2009 Pants not tight looking at that pic of her. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perchoutofwater Posted October 9, 2009 Share Posted October 9, 2009 That is sad. I wonder if there is as statistic showing how many people with firearms permits commit crimes versus how many without. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bpwallace49 Posted October 9, 2009 Share Posted October 9, 2009 That is sad. I wonder if there is as statistic showing how many people with firearms permits commit crimes versus how many without. 'cause that is relevant in this case . . . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimmy Neutron Posted October 9, 2009 Share Posted October 9, 2009 That's a good question. I like Escher. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perchoutofwater Posted October 10, 2009 Share Posted October 10, 2009 'cause that is relevant in this case . . . You're right, Grunge wasn't trying to portray those that carry as dangerous lunatics. So, statistics concerning crimes committed by lawful firearms owners and carriers versus illegal possession is irrelevant. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perchoutofwater Posted October 10, 2009 Share Posted October 10, 2009 An Analysis Of The Arrest Rate OfTexas Concealed Handgun License Holders As Compared To The Arrest Rate Of The Entire Texas Population 1996 - 1998, Revised to include 1999 and 2000 data by William E. Sturdevant, PE, August 24, 2001 The original study as posted in 2000. On January 1, 1996, the Texas Concealed Handgun Law went into effect. This law states that the Texas Department of Public Safety (TXDPS) "shall issue" a concealed handgun license (CHL) to any Texas resident who meets the application requirements for character (background check) and training. This is an analysis of arrest data for Texas concealed handgun licensees that was performed on data from the subsequent years of 1996 - 2000. A comparison was made with the arrest data for the entire Texas population for the same time period, showing that, on average: male Texans who are over 21 years old and are not CHL holders are 7.7 times more likely to be arrested for commission of a violent crime than male Texans with a CHL; and female Texans who are over 21 years old and are not CHL holders are 7.5 times more likely to be arrested for commission of a violent crime than female Texans with a CHL. Of the violent crime cases that have been adjudicated, approximately 26% of CHL holders who were arrested were convicted, and 44% are cleared of the violent crimes for which they were arrested. The chart below illustrates the arrest rate comparison for each of the years 1996 – 2000. The purpose of this analysis is to attempt to quantify the negative effect, if any, of Texas Concealed Handgun License holders on crime and crime rates through a comparison of arrests rates with the Texas population as a whole. The scope of this analysis is the five-year period from the law's enactment in January of 1996, through December of 2000. For the proper perspective, the analysis of the DPS arrest data for CHL holders is juxtaposed against the arrest data for the state's entire population. Unfortunately, this analysis cannot attempt to quantify the positive effect, if any, of the Texas Concealed Handgun Law, as there is no data available regarding the number of crimes prevented or the number of lives saved when a concealed handgun is used in self-defense. With the information available, a juxtaposition of the arrest rates for Texas CHL holders and the general public is the best, though imperfect, method of determining any negative effect (an increase in violent crime) of the Texas Concealed Handgun Law on Texas society. If allowing normally law abiding and peaceful citizens to carry a weapon concealed on their person were to somehow convert them into violent predators, it would be expected that CHL holders would have a higher crime rate than unlicensed Texans. The comparison of arrest rates suggests just the opposite – Texans licensed to carry a gun are much less violent than Texans who are not. Since the age/sex demographics of the CHL group is so significantly different from that of the total Texas population, (Notes 1, 2), the comparison of the two groups was made between males age 21 years, CHL v. non-CHL; and females age 21 years, CHL v. non-CHL. Males: Top of Page The average male Texan who is 21 years or older is 7.7 times more likely to be arrested for the violent crimes of murder, rape, robbery, and assault than the average male CHL holder. Looking at violent crimes individually, the average male Texan who is 21 years or older is 1.7 times (rate of 7.4 v. 4.3) more likely to be arrested for murder; 87 times (rate of 24 v. 0.3) more likely to be arrested for rape; 53 times (rate of 44 v. 0.8) more likely to be arrested for robbery; 3.4 times (rate of 202 v. 60) more likely to be arrested for aggravated assault; and 10 times (rate of 892 v. 87) more likely to be arrested for other assaults than the average male CHL holder. No male Texas CHL holder was arrested for negligent manslaughter during the 1996 through 2000 period. The average male Texan who is 21 years or older is 18 times more likely to be arrested for committing a non-violent crime than the average male CHL holder. Females: Top of Page The average female Texan who is 21 years or older is 7.5 times more likely to be arrested for the violent crimes of murder and assault than the average female CHL holder. Looking at violent crimes individually, the average female Texan who is 21 years or older is 2.0 times (rate of 1.2 v. 0.6) more likely to be arrested for murder; 2.5 times (rate of 48 v. 19) more likely to be arrested for aggravated assault; and 17 times (rate of 178 v. 11) more likely to be arrested for other assaults than the average female CHL holder. No female Texas CHL holder has arrested for negligent manslaughter, rape, or robbery during the 1996 through 2000 period. The average female Texan who is 21 years or older is 13 times more likely to be arrested for committing a non-violent crime than the average female CHL holder. Link with graph showing arrests per year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaP'N GRuNGe Posted October 10, 2009 Author Share Posted October 10, 2009 You're right, Grunge wasn't trying to portray those that carry as dangerous lunatics. So, statistics concerning crimes committed by lawful firearms owners and carriers versus illegal possession is irrelevant. No, not all of them. Just the idiots who feel the need to do the whole "Have to agree here look at me" at a kids soccer game. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AtomicCEO Posted October 10, 2009 Share Posted October 10, 2009 Perch, why are you citing information from a single state that is almost a decade old? Is that the only info you could find to support your argument? I can't find anything this William E. Sturdevant guy has done except write papers about concealed carry. Any idea who he is? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SheikYerbuti Posted October 10, 2009 Share Posted October 10, 2009 Don't pull that thang out unless you plan to bang. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
10g_DBA Posted October 10, 2009 Share Posted October 10, 2009 Perch, why are you citing information from a single state that is almost a decade old? Is that the only info you could find to support your argument? I can't find anything this William E. Sturdevant guy has done except write papers about concealed carry. Any idea who he is? Here is some info from 2007. It's the most up-to-date information available. http://www.txdps.state.tx.us/administratio...sReport2007.pdf Here's the explanation for why there is a 1-2 year lag: The following reports represent the number of Concealed Handgun License (CHL) holders with convictions vs. the entire TX population with convictions. The Criminal History conviction data is not considered "final" until a year after the conviction. Each report is generated for the current year minus 2 years (ie. the 2006 Conviciton Rates Report was run in mid 2008 to allow for "final" conviction status on the 2006 Criminal History records). The delayed report generation timeline also gives the CHL Legal department time to revoke or deny CHL's after a "final" conviction has been reached and reported to CHL. Each report contains descriptive text regarding the data content. As for this being stats for a "single state", well TX is a pretty big state, so the sample size is likely representative of the entire US population. Human nature is what it is, no matter where you live. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AtomicCEO Posted October 10, 2009 Share Posted October 10, 2009 Here is some info from 2007. It's the most up-to-date information available.http://www.txdps.state.tx.us/administratio...sReport2007.pdf Here's the explanation for why there is a 1-2 year lag: But the original study that he posted had data for 2000, and was published in 2000. I don't understand. As for this being stats for a "single state", well TX is a pretty big state, so the sample size is likely representative of the entire US population. Human nature is what it is, no matter where you live. That assumption that Texans represent the rest of the US is probably offensive to both Texans and non-Texans. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
10g_DBA Posted October 10, 2009 Share Posted October 10, 2009 That assumption that Texans represent the rest of the US is probably offensive to both Texans and non-Texans. <chuckle> Clearly, I didn't mean politically. The point, as you know, is that generally speaking, concealed carry license holders are a law abiding bunch. Perhaps you'd be generous enough to agree that if we were to aggregate similar stats from all 50 states, the results would be the same at the national level. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Irish Doggy Posted October 10, 2009 Share Posted October 10, 2009 So someone did a study where they selectively sampled citizens based on pre-existing law-abiding behavior, compared them to the rest of the population, and concluded they were more law abiding. Shocking. There are also studies that show convicted criminals, compared to the population, are more likely to commit crimes. I think the lesson to learn then, obviously, is that we should make criminals take a class and get a CHL upon finishing their sentence. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wildcat2334 Posted October 10, 2009 Share Posted October 10, 2009 nice to see the best and brightest are packing heat. - good gawd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
10g_DBA Posted October 10, 2009 Share Posted October 10, 2009 So someone did a study where they selectively sampled citizens based on pre-existing law-abiding behavior, compared them to the rest of the population, and concluded they were more law abiding. Shocking. There are also studies that show convicted criminals, compared to the population, are more likely to commit crimes. I think the lesson to learn then, obviously, is that we should make criminals take a class and get a CHL upon finishing their sentence. You're a lawyer, presumably trained in logic, right? Anyway, even if possession of a license imposed an external morality upon its holder, I'm sure you're aware that felons don't meet the eligibility requirements. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Irish Doggy Posted October 10, 2009 Share Posted October 10, 2009 (edited) You're a lawyer, presumably trained in logic, right? Anyway, even if possession of a license imposed an external morality upon its holder, I'm sure you're aware that felons don't meet the eligibility requirements. I agree one bad nut doesn't justify eliminating CHL, but the linked studies don't do anything for it either. As you've pointed out, the eligibility requirements of CHL are such that those in the criminal line of work can't get one. They put a fancy face on it, but all those statistics tell us is that law abiding citizens tend to be law abiding. Edited October 10, 2009 by The Irish Doggy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AtomicCEO Posted October 10, 2009 Share Posted October 10, 2009 <chuckle>Clearly, I didn't mean politically. The point, as you know, is that generally speaking, concealed carry license holders are a law abiding bunch. Perhaps you'd be generous enough to agree that if we were to aggregate similar stats from all 50 states, the results would be the same at the national level. I would have no reason to argue with that. The people have followed the law and are responsible with their guns. This does not seem to me to support any argument that concealed carry should be expanded to more people, or that gun laws should be less strict. It seems like that would muddy up that data considerably. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bpwallace49 Posted October 10, 2009 Share Posted October 10, 2009 So data from Texas is relevant in this tragedy in Pennsylvania? It is high profile idiots like this lady that make it MORE difficult for law abiding citizens to get concealed carry passed in other states. Does anyone think this would have been national news if this lady didnt bring her sidearm to a KIDS SOCCER GAME? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billay Posted October 11, 2009 Share Posted October 11, 2009 You're a lawyer, presumably trained in logic, right? Anyway, even if possession of a license imposed an external morality upon its holder, I'm sure you're aware that felons don't meet the eligibility requirements. In North Carolina they do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
McBoog Posted October 11, 2009 Share Posted October 11, 2009 ...That assumption that Texans represent the rest of the US is probably offensive to both Texans and non-Texans. For the first time in my adult life, I was excited and proud to receive my new driver's license in the mail. I have assimilated quickly and completely concur with this statement! By the way, how come nobody told me about "Mel's" before I got here? OMG !!! That is some eatin' right there! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yukon Cornelius Posted October 12, 2009 Share Posted October 12, 2009 As for this being stats for a "single state", well TX is a pretty big state, so the sample size is likely representative of the entire US population. Human nature is what it is, no matter where you live. ummm NO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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